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  1. #1
    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
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    Default What if reality simply isn't finished?

    Why is it that in our attempts to capture the essence of reality in a system or a theory, we always end up writing something that for some part completely works and for another part completely falls on its face?

    Why can Immanual Kant write a system of ethics that perfectly applies to some scenarios but absolutely fails to work in others. How is it possible that a mathematician can create a mathematic law that works, but as soon as he writes a word of metaphysical philosophy half the world disagrees with him regardless of how well considered it is?

    Why is it that things aren't eternal and are subject to entropy and decay? Why is there seemingly no end to physical matter, yet the arrangement of this matter to create different objects is only capable of creating objects that exist temporarily? Why can different people in the same situation with the same information draw completely opposite conclusions and each be as convinced as the other that their conclusion feels true? How can two complete opposites both feel equally true and how is it possible that some people take a radical 180 on something in their life and are as convinced of their latter stance as they were of their former?

    These are questions I can keep asking and asking. There are some things that we are perfectly capable of capturing in a system that allows us to reproduce results, but then there are things that fall entirely outside it.

    If we perceive reality as a weave, as has often been done, is it not logical to conclude that the weave simply hasn't been fully woven yet? What if reality in some manners is still in a state of complete chaos and disarray, and is in other manners finished and constructed? What if those things that we have been able to form decisive conclusions about are those parts of reality that are done? What if the purpose of reality at this point is simply to finish its construction and we are just as much living it as we are it?

    All philosophy and all theology seems to assume that the reality in which we live, the universe, the world, doesn't matter what term you use as long as it encompasses the entirety of everything, is already finished. We work from the assumption that everything has been shaped and made, that everything has already been wrapped up and that it's simply up to us to uncover the secrets. What if there are no secrets to uncover? What if the only "secret" is that reality's simply still under construction and that we therefore can't establish a meaningful set of rules that capture things perfectly despite our wanting to? It seems to make sense to me that this could be the case, though I'm not yet willing to commit to it actually being the case before I've given it more thought.

    Still, it's an idea to posit so that's what I'm doing. I'm quite interested in feedback.
    Last edited by The Dude; January 04, 2011 at 02:17 PM.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: What if reality simply isn't finished?

    SignifierOne's rantings are provoking much I see.

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    Default Re: What if reality simply isn't finished?

    Huh? Where does he come in?
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

  4. #4

    Default Re: What if reality simply isn't finished?

    Reality is complete, our understanding of it is not. That's how I see it.



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    Default Re: What if reality simply isn't finished?

    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade Wiggum View Post
    Reality is complete, our understanding of it is not. That's how I see it.
    Is it necessarily complete? If you consider the creation of reality, why does its completion have to precede us?
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

  6. #6

    Default Re: What if reality simply isn't finished?

    Is it necessarily complete? If you consider the creation of reality, why does its completion have to precede us?
    It doesnt but not alot has happened in the last 3-4 billion years so id say it was completeted beforehand and the big bang was just the play button getting pressed.

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    Default Re: What if reality simply isn't finished?

    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade Wiggum View Post
    Reality is complete, our understanding of it is not. That's how I see it.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Is it necessarily complete? If you consider the creation of reality, why does its completion have to precede us?
    Reality may just be a misleading abstraction. There may be more than one. We need to ask what constitutes something under which conditions for whom a reality? A term of reality may be considered at some point by someone or by some as a valid term. This may change. It follows from the term of reality that it is necessarily incomplete. Incompleteness is an analytic truth otherwise we live in an immutable universe.
    Last edited by Blau&Gruen; January 04, 2011 at 03:21 PM.
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    Default Re: What if reality simply isn't finished?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Is it necessarily complete? If you consider the creation of reality, why does its completion have to precede us?
    Reality being formed incompletely doesn't really make sense, from a physical standpoint.



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    Default Re: What if reality simply isn't finished?

    I think a little bit of this will forever be subject to the realm of philosophical. This is simply one area we may never be capable of exploring. How do you test to see if reality is finished or not...? In a way this could be a future religion without a god.

  10. #10

    Default Re: What if reality simply isn't finished?

    In the Australian Aboriginal belief creation isn't complete yet, the process of creation is called the Dreamtime.
    The wheel is spinning, but the hamster is dead.

  11. #11

    Default Re: What if reality simply isn't finished?

    What reality are you talking about? Earth, social, psychological?

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    Default Re: What if reality simply isn't finished?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yezhov View Post
    What reality are you talking about? Earth, social, psychological?
    Everything that possibly is and can be. The broadest possible scope you can think of. "Being" in itself.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

  13. #13

    Default Re: What if reality simply isn't finished?

    Once it's run it's complete course our universe should no longer be here, or anywhere else anymore. Its probably cyclical. Else it will expand for eternity as a starless void bu that's an unforunate ending.
    Last edited by Helm; January 04, 2011 at 03:14 PM.
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    Default Re: What if reality simply isn't finished?

    I can see what you're saying here, but the word 'incomplete' implies a sort of a process of progression, like the reality would get 'more' complete over time, etc etc, when we see clearly that that's not the case, and that there's been no further 'completion' of reality over the last 4 billion years, as far as we can measure it.

    I think what you're trying to say is that it is fragmented; some things make sense and some don't. If the latter start making sense, the former don't. I agree, that's why a purely material approach does not work in my opinion, it is treating reality as a God that is complete and perfect and us just having to understand it; it is the anthropic principle in a twisted sort of way, and anyway, as you say here, it doesn't really work.

    Nothing guarantees that the reality actually will be perfect or that all the fragments do make sense in the end; that the relativity and QM can be reconciled in the end; people assume it can, but that's again just the religious anthropic principle, be you as atheist as you can.

    That's basically what I had arrived at in my process of thinking: the anthropic principle is the only way out of this, and even atheists who deny it unwittingly fall into it as the only way out. Those atheists who actually reject it in a principled way and indeed follow out all the conclusions that follow from that, quickly become monstrously mutated in their science, their ethical views, etc. It's almost like one of Kant's 10 categories of perception, reality breaks down for the human mind that tries to avoid it.
    Last edited by SigniferOne; January 04, 2011 at 03:50 PM.


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    Default Re: What if reality simply isn't finished?

    @Signifer
    It's much simpler. There are dozens when not hundreds or thousands books about cooking receipts. It's more than likely that most of these books differ from each other and that identical receipts show nuances. If these books were published over a period of time, you could write a history of the dishes described by them and another author or yourself a bit later could write additional books about the history of these dishes be it to explain another opinion about the history of the dishes or be it to fill a gap in the history of the receipt because have found additional receipts.
    Last edited by Blau&Gruen; January 04, 2011 at 04:04 PM.
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    Default Re: What if reality simply isn't finished?

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    I can see what you're saying here, but the word 'incomplete' implies a sort of a process of progression, like the reality would get 'more' complete over time, etc etc, when we see clearly that that's not the case, and that there's been no further 'completion' of reality over the last 4 billion years, as far as we can measure it.
    Well truly it's impossible for us to know whether or not certain rules and laws are as valid now as they were, say, 3.5 billion years ago. And if we're talking about a process of progression, then why not? Is there something that invalidates the idea that the shaping of the universe is a process that takes ages? Not only that, but it takes ages according to us. The experience of time is entirely relative to the species that experience it, I would say. Surely if you believe in god then it's not hard to imagine that to god the creation of the universe would not actually take long at all, even if we experience it as taking a nigh eternity.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

  17. #17

    Default Re: What if reality simply isn't finished?

    Lets see what a truly enlightened scientific mind has to say about the anthropic principal.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CexcmggApr4

    And a Japanese anime slant.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2zKN...eature=related
    Last edited by Helm; January 04, 2011 at 03:30 PM.
    The wheel is spinning, but the hamster is dead.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: What if reality simply isn't finished?

    The dimension of time may be the thing to have in mind here. If the wave of reality is ever "finished" the way you see it then time will stop (I suppose) since the conflicts you have described are effects of time passing at a linear an constant rate (we cant measure that it does, so we assume). So when reality is finished we will not be able to experience it.
    Btw, I think our reality is fine as it is and you should learn to love it, but keep thinking, you have great ideas.

  19. #19

    Default Re: What if reality simply isn't finished?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helm View Post
    Lets see what a truly enlightened scientific mind has to say about the anthropic principal.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CexcmggApr4

    And a Japanese anime slant.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2zKN...eature=related
    Yeah, Its more or less what I have always thought. The big bang has never satisfactorily explained infinity to me. (neither does this really, but it just feels more satisfying)

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