More first impressions

[Pritzl]

WOW! I just had one of my favourite R:TW sessions of all time. Apart from the usual role-playing which I thoroughly enjoyed with the new traits system, something exceptional just happened: I just had the most plausible string of diplomatic guestures ever!

Playing as the Romanoi, first one Gallic faction and then the other tried to "woo" me in turn into an alliance. Since they were at war with each other I chose one over the other and placated the other one with a gift of 100 minai and trade rights. This is so historically accurate and plausible I was giggling like a little girl. I am now raising an army in secret to assist my new ally. The fiendishness of it all is beyond entertaining. Maybe I should be playing Romeolitical Intrigue?

Meanwhile, in the South, after driving the Epirotes out I got the appropriate announcement which was great - even if the Epirotes left in a less than dignified manner, I kind of waited for their main army to leave town and I attacked while they were away campaigning. Then, a few turns later I offered to help the Macedonians out and attack our common enemy (the Epirotes) and made good by eradicating the remnants of the Epirote army on mainland Italy. Unbeknownst to my Macedonian allies, this was both my intent all along and also actually benefited the Epirotes, no longer burdened by paying for a stranded army! I intend to cash in on this show of goodwill later down the line...

Two turns later, the Epirotes sue for a ceasfire and I accept under condition of 500 minai tribute over 10 turns. They begrudgingly accept. Bottom line: R:TW is fun again.



BUT... there's always one isn't there? Some things make me wonder:

1. Why do Roarii cost almost the same as Hastati? I expected them to be much cheaper.
2. I just invested in some Gallic archers and the short sword guys Clyb-whatever. I'm using the excuse that this is my attempt to be a magnanimous conquerer, enlisted the defeated army instead of putting them to the sword. Was it a wise decision? i.e. are they worth it and does this affect the complex trait system?
3. The 'meeting hall' thing is what is allowing the recruitment of these foreign troops in segesta. If I go ahead and Romanize the province as planned, (complex I) will I lose the option to recruit them?
4. WOW! Mercenaries are expensive! I'd like to propose that they cost about the same or less than regular troops of the same quality but have a much higher upkeep just for the purpose of plausibility. (provided it doesn't have any adverse gameplay effects of course)
5. AI expansion does seem limited (which isn't completely a bad thing since my expansion is slow too) but I hope this is not going to always be the case. It seems their biggest problem is that they underestimate the strength of Eleutheroi (sp?) garrisons.
6. What's with the 30000+ starting treasury that is never actually physically there? i.e. in the financial summary it says you have 33000 minai but you start with 3000, etc...
7. Oh and before I forget, why in God's name do naked warriors have 2 hitpoints? I know they were hopped up on drugs or what not but it's a little too much methinks.

Seriously, this is well beyond a simple mod imo. It's like a whole new game now.

[QwertyMIDX]

1) Because there are more men in Roraii unit, in EB costs are calculated per man (on large settings).

3) If you build a type 1 you'll lose all local troops, if you build a type 2 you should still get a few local troops, although the Roman system for recruitment is all mess up in this version. Also, you should never build troops before you've built a gov't building. Hopefully this loophole will be sorted out eventually.

4) It was a quick fix for the OB, we'll figure out how exactly to handle them later.

7) The Gaesatae were so full of drugs that they were known to rip javelins out of their bodies and throw them back...if anyone deserves 2 HP it's them.

[Malrubius]

2) We haven't really done much with mercenaries affecting traits. I think some good ideas have been put forth, that I have tucked away in my ideas folder. I usually dip in there when I get bored and crank out a few of them.

[Solar]

my own replies to some of your impressions:

3. Yeah, as Carthage I can recruit iberian velites anywhere, regardless of the government building (in fact, even without one)

4. I like Merc costs as they are. Allows armies to have long-term mercenary contingents, which seem to have been rather common at the time (especially for carthage).

5. Yeah, they have great difficulty killing eleutheroi garrisons. they attack with a full stack against the eleuth's full stack, and lose, and the remaining eleuth troops get more experience and their generals get more stars, which make each succesive AI attack harder to pull off (oh, and the eleutheroi do produce more troops to replace the lost ones - even tho they dont seem to retrain half-strength units). The whole thing apparently has to do with some problem in autocalc siege battles, as I mentioned in another thread.

[Pritzl]

Thanks for the replies.

Some counters if you guys don't mind my prying:

• Roarii cost: I understand what you are saying, but I still think it's a tad high. I like to use them in their real role as 'gap-pluggers' but at their current cost there is little reason not to invest in Hastati or Principes instead.
• Local troops available immediately: I actually think that this is an opportune bug. (maybe have it available for a short time only though?) It makes sense to be able to recruit some native troops from a defeated province. Give it some thought.
• Standing Mercenary armies: While mercenaries were quite common for some peoples like the Carthaginians, they usually gathered every campaigning season and disbanded at the end of it iirc. If true, a cost system that encouraged that would be great.
• Gaesatae: I suspect there's a little bit of mythos going on here. "Ripping out javelins" sounds suspiciously like a first-hand description of a few isolated instances when perhaps something close might have occurred. i.e. I sincerely doubt that it was the norm given the tendency of most people to exaggerate such accounts. Even if we accept it for truth that these drugs allowed them to endure incredible pain that wouldn't necessarily translate into the meat-grinder you have to put them through at the moment. I see them as a psychological weapon first and foremost thrown at the enemy to demoralize them. So, if I were doing their stats I'd go with incredibly impetuous, unshakeable morale, incredible charge and attack, but very poor defence rating and certainly only one hit point. At least as a compromise, I'd make their defence very low - they were freakin' naked afterall and the same drugs that enurred them to pain probably diminished the coordination requisite to good defence. I see them as a fire-cracker, a one-time use weapon.
• Mercenary-related traits: good to hear that there's stuff in the works. Just don't get carried away is my advice - I really don't like it when features are done/included just because they are possible.
• AI expansion: Not being a steam-roller type player, I'm very happy with the laid-back AI. Allows me to get more involved with the role-playing aspect. Just hope it isn't a permanent/insurmountable thing.

Cheers...

[Wurzelgnom]

Another thing concerning the Gaesatae:

Why do they have such a high defence? 2 hitpoints is ok, but why do they have an armour value of 5, although they are completely naked?
Without the armour(which they obviously shouldn't have) they wouldn't be as godlike as they are now...Have you already thought on changing that?

[Solar]

they do have helmets, you know.

[QwertyMIDX]

Indeed, they have a huge helmet in fact.

[Wurzelgnom]

Well that's right, but does it justify 5 armour-points? I think this is too high for just a helmet. 1 or 2 would be ok, if you really want to keep the armour.

[QwertyMIDX]

There is a very complex system for generating stats. I don't just look at the unit and make them up. Anyway, the helmet is probably the single most important piece of armor in a soilder's kit after the shield. Very effiecent ratio of cost to protection.

[Maethius]

I actually find that the Roman troop costs and efectivenes is on the level right now. At least the early type legions i'm playing with. Diplomacy has been interesting so far since Epirus attecked me with a 1400 strong army (large units) and when i beat them and the city on the heel of Italy they sued for peace at once.

[Pritzl]

I'm not trying to be difficult, and I guess I can edit things like cost and Gaesatae defence/hitpoints myself. I only bring it up because I know EB are after realism as well and I find these particular features slightly lacking in the realism department; they feel less plausible than other things.

[QwertyMIDX]

Whatever they feel like isn't really that relavent. The Gaesatae were essentially on PCP, which as you probably know essentially lets you keep on moving after you should be dead. You can ignore what the sources say based on what you 'feel' is realistic, but that is not history, nor is it accurate. Despite your vision of them as a "one-time use weapon," the sources say different, these were professional mercenaries, who were veterans of many battles and were highly skilled with all their equipment. If you want to change them so they conform to your notions of how things 'should' be that's fine, just understand that you are making the mod less realistic not more.

[Pritzl]

Thanks. I've modified them already, keeping the 2 hitpoints but reducing their armour/defence values.

[QwertyMIDX]

Go for it, just know that you're making them less realistic.

[QwertyMIDX]

@ Your point on the Roarii, you should be using Hastati instead most of the time, they weren't highly used in roman armies.

Perhaps you should either just mod the game so you can play it the way you want, or accept that history doesn't always conform to how you want to play or how your gut instinct tells you it should feel.

[swabian]

i somehow have bad conscience now because i do change a lot of stats. but i keep to the structure that is given, means i don't make milnaht more powerful than gaesatae or kataphraktoi more powerful than companion cavalry. i try to make the battles more extreme. extreme battles make the game much more difficult since wrong decisions have quickly drastical consequences then. and the battles are shorter. don't you think that a realistic duration of the battles would require realistic troop sizes?

[Pritzl]

Qwerty, I don't know why it bothers you so much? Let's assume I mod it beyond all historical recognition, how does that affect you unless you are forced to play it? Besides, what makes you so sure you are right and I am wrong? History has been rewritten enough times to know that there rarely is just 'one truth'. I am looking for plausibility and that is highly subjective. Thanks anyway.

[Scippio Hollandia]

I also have a few remarks/ questions.
1. I think that the Getsae are a bit to powerful. In a siege battle one unit of Getsae routed eight of my hastati and principes. Wow.
2. How does the Roman recruitment system work? It is quite eloborate.
3. The campaignmap is very slow in the north(Casse, Adui), but normal in the south(Italy, Spain).
4. What is the best difficulty level if you want to play on the campaignmap with an ai wich is aggressive without money bonusses and have long battles on the battlefield?
Can't think of anything else right now. Other than that it is a cool mod. I have not had one ctd.

[God-Emperor of Mankind]

I also have a few remarks/ questions.
1. I think that the Getsae are a bit to powerful. In a siege battle one unit of Getsae routed eight of my hastati and principes. Wow.

Most units can rout hastati and principes without much trouble.
They are crap and will always be crap.
Use Triarii instead or another phalanx unit, that will stop those naked lunatics for sure.