SS 6.0 Highland pikemen?

[Lone Crusader]

Hello, I went to mess around with the scots highland pikemen unit after I lost a very dramatic battle. And I found out that one battalion of highland pikemen, with attack of 3, and defense of 2 can decimate viking raiders, and even norse swordsmen with relative ease. Fortunately Dism. feudal knights won them, but barely.

So are all pikemen like this particular unit way overpowered in 6.0? I know this mod tries to give a historically accurate picture of medieval warfare, with cavalry upkeeps being very high and all, so I cant believe the pikes were meant to be so effective. I mean, If they are so devastating against infantry as the game presents, why didnt every country just spam em?

I mean, dismounted knights with heavy mail, large shields and sharp swords and not to forget all the training they supposedly went trough, almost lost to a company of scots pikemen, who dont have shields, armour, only a 4 meter stick.

The reason for their supremacy is their attack rate, I guess. They can attack quicker than any other unit Ive seen in the game. And they never drop their pikes, even when my guy is like a half meter away from a pikeman, he just keeps probing and probing ( with a 4 meter long pike! ) till my guy is dead. And cus the "rate of fire" is so fast, my guys have trouble getting past the pikemaze to battle with their much shorter weapons.

I guess that size does matter in 6.0?

And no I dont wanna upgrade to 6.3, tried it, didnt like it. Thank you.

[Hyaweh]

it's all about formation, and pikemens are kinda the most powerful melee type, it can defeat most other infantry, except two-handers, and they are the unit most effective against pikemen, melee wise.

then again, their very vulnerable to missile so it's kinda hard to use them against their neighbors, the English..

[Moritol]

Paper and scissor. Shoot the pikemen, they are unarmoured... and attack them from behind.
About the devastating effect of pikes, watch this on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81BKWgL___E&feature=related

[k/t]

I don't know anything about non-RR/RC stat systems, but I find the pikemen very well done in RR/RC.

There are tons of threads about this, search around and you'll find them.

[Caesar Clivus]

I mean, If they are so devastating against infantry as the game presents, why didnt every country just spam em?

Every country pretty much did in the later medieval period. Pikes dominated the battlefield. Do as someone else suggested and take them out with ranged weapons. Pikes move slowly so you can decimate them at ranged.

[Lone Crusader]

Every country pretty much did in the later medieval period. Pikes dominated the battlefield. Do as someone else suggested and take them out with ranged weapons. Pikes move slowly so you can decimate them at ranged.

Why was the pike not so widely used in early medieval period, and in the dark ages then? Was it because pike tactics were not developed to be effective enough at that time?

But man, this sucks. Playing norway, who have horsemen, average archers and their best ( and only ? ) spear units consist of spear militia, I supposedly have to rely on my infantry. The infantry roster looks good enough, with vikings and all, but in the end even the their infantry is average, when compared to other countries DFK and other well armoured professional swordsmen units that almost all other countries have.

And what good is there to the unit " icelandic axemen "? I tested denmarks Norse axemen unit, which has pretty much same stats as the icelandic axemen unit, and it seems they are not worth the money. Dism. huscarls seem to get any job done better than the norse axemen unit, and infact, Every 2 handed axe unit in the game seems to be a waste of money if used against infantry. They get more or less owned against foot knights, and I think armoured spearmen might be able to win them too.

And my " best infantry unit " form the armoury, Hirdsmen or something like that, with attack of 6 and defense of 20 doesnt convince to buy that expensive building. Are they even good? With most of my vikings and swordsmen being nothing extraordinary ( viking raiders lose to spear militia !!), I got nothing really good and exotic units. Never playing Norway or Denmark again. Period.

[JorisofHolland]

Why was the pike not so widely used in early medieval period, and in the dark ages then? Was it because pike tactics were not developed to be effective enough at that time?

Well, the Greeks used pike formations already so it has to be something else.

But man, this sucks. Playing norway, who have horsemen, average archers and their best ( and only ? ) spear units consist of spear militia, I supposedly have to rely on my infantry. The infantry roster looks good enough, with vikings and all, but in the end even the their infantry is average, when compared to other countries DFK and other well armoured professional swordsmen units that almost all other countries have.

And what good is there to the unit " icelandic axemen "? I tested denmarks Norse axemen unit, which has pretty much same stats as the icelandic axemen unit, and it seems they are not worth the money. Dism. huscarls seem to get any job done better than the norse axemen unit, and infact, Every 2 handed axe unit in the game seems to be a waste of money if used against infantry. They get more or less owned against foot knights, and I think armoured spearmen might be able to win them too.

And my " best infantry unit " form the armoury, Hirdsmen or something like that, with attack of 6 and defense of 20 doesnt convince to buy that expensive building. Are they even good? With most of my vikings and swordsmen being nothing extraordinary ( viking raiders lose to spear militia !!), I got nothing really good and exotic units. Never playing Norway or Denmark again. Period.

Well, your infantry aren't the common type, they're shock units, and are deadly when charging/flanking, but will take too much damage to use them in prolonged melee (as you've just learned through trial-and-error).

Edit: and they're excellent against pikemen (shock infantry (2-handers), I mean): charge the back/flank of the pike formation, do epic damage, fight a while, retreat, do it again.

[Marcvs Antonivs]

Pretty good video up there, very nice

[DeliCiousTZM]

I love fighting pikemen makes me think ^^ hate having them cuz the AI is to stupid they just get demolished

[Gorrrrrn]

Norway also has Norse archers - very good archers and effective in melee.

[Chyeaaaa111]

Norway also has Norse archers - very good archers and effective in melee.

Exactly. You can forget about infantry and just bring Norse archers and some cavalry to the battle. Far more effective in my experience.

[Moritol]

Norse archers... crappy range, not much damage and they are not even good at melee any more. When pikes are about to appear, you are already able to recruit arbalest militia.

[Gogolometro]

You get something even better, the pavise handgunners.

[Ichon]

Norse archers... crappy range, not much damage and they are not even good at melee any more. When pikes are about to appear, you are already able to recruit arbalest militia.

Norse archers main handicap is range... they are much better than most archers in melee and stand up to all but professional troops. Damage output is lower than some other archers like Longbow or Mourtori but those are some of best archers in game, they do as much ranged damage as many other archers and if the line is breached they can hold out in melee fairly well especially for their cost.

[Lone Crusader]

Norse archers... crappy range, not much damage and they are not even good at melee any more. When pikes are about to appear, you are already able to recruit arbalest militia.

Arbalest militia - which norway doesnt have. And the best cavalry that Norway has to offer is feudal cavalry - nothing fancy, but not crappy either. But the upkeep costs will kill me...

I hope those Hirdsmen are worth the armoury&citadel upgrading ,which is about 18 k..

And another thing, which bugs me... Norway doesnt have professional troops almost at all. And yet another thing, is which I previously mentioned, the best spear unit you get is spear militia..
I mean seriously? This is the unit Im supposed to withstand the cavalry charges with? Jesus...

[k/t]

I mean seriously? This is the unit Im supposed to withstand the cavalry charges with? Jesus...

No, that's Swordstaff Militia.

[Andytheplatypus]

I think the real issue you are having is your complete lack of battlefield strategy. If your having more then a slight problem beating the scotts playing as norway then you are the problem, not the lack of late period professional units.

[Lone Crusader]

I think the real issue you are having is your complete lack of battlefield strategy. If your having more then a slight problem beating the scotts playing as norway then you are the problem, not the lack of late period professional units.

Well, If I was lacking battlefield tactics, I would never have beaten the Danish mass spam armies in earlier years.

The current problem is, that I have outdated infantry and my cavalry consist of 1 or 2 units of generals bodyguard. Scotland had a large kingdom and so has the money to buy the best troops it can from their last region, which happens to be nottingham. They run large armies consisting of pikes, dism. feudal knights and mailed knights that are simply more than a match for my viking raiders, peasant archers, spear militia and generals bodyguard. This army composition is of course my own mistake, I have been trying to upgrade all my cities as fast as I can to get big trade fleets and gain more money. Now though, I have raised large armies from almost every coastal castle available, and now I also gained access to knights, So that I dont have to rely on generals bodyguard all the time.

So I know that my problem is self - caused, yes, but not because of battle tactics, but rather because of the way I ran my kingdom. I wanted to run the kingdom as cheaply as possible when it came to troops.

@Losthief: I know they are good against cavalry, but some unit has to withstand the cavalry charge for them. And spear militia just get demolished at that task.

@k/t: Havent tried that militia at all. Though, I cant recruit it yet, so Ill have to test it later.

[SoCCo]

the greeks used a line pike formation. it was vulnerable against fast moving cavalery and suicidal against horse archers. after the romans conquered Greece the value of pike was quite forgotten until late medieval period when gunpowder infantery needed to be protected against heavy/light cavalery. so the pike, as well the halebard and other polearms became the new fashion thread for heavy infantery. also tactics improved, when facing a cavalery charge they deployed the units in square formations, thus leaving no open flank/rear free. in modern era, with industrial growth, the pike got replaced by bayonets.
so the pike owned anything on the battlefield for few hundred years ( Alexander the Great etc ). they got owned by romans and eastern cavalery. the greeks got conquered by romans who didn't adopt the greek pike strategy. later the roman empire collapsed, the latin nations mixed the fighting style of the romans with germanic/norse/eastern units, thus creating spear units and dismounted heavy knights. gunpowder units started to own the battlefield, they wiped out any infantery but were vulnerable to enemy cavalery, so the pike got mixed with early musketeers and a new formation was born : Tercio ( the pikemen defended the musketeers from melee combat) . later Sweden's king improved the cavalery tactics ( the cavalery shot a volley with pistols before they reached the enemy infantery, this way they destroyed the pikemen's morale and ranks), this tactic was an improved form of the older european tactic ( the cavalery used pistols after the charge ). the improved swedish tactic was most effective during the 30 years war. during same period, the dutch republic was at war with spain. during the 80 years war ( aka dutch independence war ) the maurician infantery tactics got introduced by the dutch. the tactic improved alot the rate of fire of musketeer formations, this is the foundation of future improvements to gunpowder units that replaced the pike with the addition of bayonets to muskets/early rifles.