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  1. #1

    Default Is Jesus God or the son of God?

    I apologize if there is already a thread on this topic but I did a quick search and didnt find anything.

    Last night I was debating my step father on the nature of Christ. I argued that Jesus was the son of God, a separate being from God. He is convinced that Jesus IS God. From my reading of the gospels I really got the idea that Jesus is the human son of God not God in human form. I referred to Jesus' baptism by John the baptist when Jesus divine origin is first revealed to him.

    Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Jesus also prays to God, which wouldnt make any sense if he was God. (Mat 26:42, Mat 27:46) I could go on with examples of Jesus being a separate being from God.

    Is this one of those issues that will never be resolved?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Is Jesus God or the son of God?

    no it is resolved.

    haven't you heard of the trinity?

  3. #3

    Default Re: Is Jesus God or the son of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by irelandeb View Post
    no it is resolved.

    haven't you heard of the trinity?
    Sure, if you accept the idea of authoritarial fiat.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  4. #4
    black-dragon's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Is Jesus God or the son of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by irelandeb View Post
    no it is resolved.

    haven't you heard of the trinity?
    This violates the law of identity. It would make God something that he is not.
    'If there is an ultimate meaning to existence, as I believe is the case, the answer is to be found within nature, not beyond it. The universe might indeed be a fix, but if so, it has fixed itself.' - Paul Davies, the guy that religious apologists always take out of context.

    Attention new-agers: I have a quantum loofah that you might be interested in.

  5. #5
    John I Tzimisces's Avatar Get born again.
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    Default Re: Is Jesus God or the son of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by black-dragon View Post
    This violates the law of identity. It would make God something that he is not.
    How is this any more irrational or illogical than an entity that is simultaneously omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and all-loving?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Is Jesus God or the son of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by black-dragon View Post
    This violates the law of identity. It would make God something that he is not.
    that isn't an argument against the existence of God.

    why would you expect God to follow the rules of a universe he created?

  7. #7
    Del Valle's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Is Jesus God or the son of God?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism

    Early Christians really debated and fought over this topic at length.

  8. #8
    black-dragon's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Is Jesus God or the son of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by irelandeb View Post
    that isn't an argument against the existence of God.

    why would you expect God to follow the rules of a universe he created?
    But logic isn't some natural law unique to one universe.
    'If there is an ultimate meaning to existence, as I believe is the case, the answer is to be found within nature, not beyond it. The universe might indeed be a fix, but if so, it has fixed itself.' - Paul Davies, the guy that religious apologists always take out of context.

    Attention new-agers: I have a quantum loofah that you might be interested in.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Is Jesus God or the son of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by black-dragon View Post
    But logic isn't some natural law unique to one universe.
    how can you possibly claim that?

    the same for the law of identity.
    Last edited by removeduser_4536284751384; January 03, 2011 at 04:59 PM.

  10. #10
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Is Jesus God or the son of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by irelandeb View Post
    no it is resolved.

    haven't you heard of the trinity?
    God that is so confusing.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Is Jesus God or the son of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    God that is so confusing.
    It's part of how it works. Things that make no sense require faith! Faith is the backbone of the religion's belief!
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Is Jesus God or the son of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    It's part of how it works. Things that make no sense require faith! Faith is the backbone of the religion's belief!
    How ignorant.
    Last edited by Rushlight; January 06, 2011 at 11:22 PM.

  13. #13
    ♔Goodguy1066♔'s Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is Jesus God or the son of God?

    He's just a very naughty boy!
    A member of the Most Ancient, Puissant and Honourable Society of Silly Old Duffers
    Secret Sig Content Box!

    Both male and female walruses have tusks and have been observed using these overgrown teeth to help pull themselves out of the water.

    The mustached and long-tusked walrus is most often found near the Arctic Circle, lying on the ice with hundreds of companions. These marine mammals are extremely sociable, prone to loudly bellowing and snorting at one another, but are aggressive during mating season. With wrinkled brown and pink hides, walruses are distinguished by their long white tusks, grizzly whiskers, flat flipper, and bodies full of blubber.
    Walruses use their iconic long tusks for a variety of reasons, each of which makes their lives in the Arctic a bit easier. They use them to haul their enormous bodies out of frigid waters, thus their "tooth-walking" label, and to break breathing holes into ice from below. Their tusks, which are found on both males and females, can extend to about three feet (one meter), and are, in fact, large canine teeth, which grow throughout their lives. Male walruses, or bulls, also employ their tusks aggressively to maintain territory and, during mating season, to protect their harems of females, or cows.
    The walrus' other characteristic features are equally useful. As their favorite meals, particularly shellfish, are found near the dark ocean floor, walruses use their extremely sensitive whiskers, called mustacial vibrissae, as detection devices. Their blubbery bodies allow them to live comfortably in the Arctic region—walruses are capable of slowing their heartbeats in order to withstand the polar temperatures of the surrounding waters.
    The two subspecies of walrus are divided geographically. Atlantic walruses inhabit coastal areas from northeastern Canada to Greenland, while Pacific walruses inhabit the northern seas off Russia and Alaska, migrating seasonally from their southern range in the Bering Sea—where they are found on the pack ice in winter—to the Chukchi Sea. Female Pacific walruses give birth to calves during the spring migration north.
    Only Native Americans are currently allowed to hunt walruses, as the species' survival was threatened by past overhunting. Their tusks, oil, skin, and meat were so sought after in the 18th and 19th centuries that the walrus was hunted to extinction in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and around Sable Island, off the coast of Nova Scotia.

  14. #14
    CamilleBonparte's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Is Jesus God or the son of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔Goodguy1066♔ View Post
    He's just a very naughty boy!
    By Jewish standards he was perfection, actually.
    "If History is deprived of the truth, we are left with nothing but an idle, unprofitable tale." - Polybius
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  15. #15
    ♔Goodguy1066♔'s Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is Jesus God or the son of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by CamilleBonparte View Post
    By Jewish standards he was perfection, actually.
    And that's why we killed him, as we apparently did?
    A member of the Most Ancient, Puissant and Honourable Society of Silly Old Duffers
    Secret Sig Content Box!

    Both male and female walruses have tusks and have been observed using these overgrown teeth to help pull themselves out of the water.

    The mustached and long-tusked walrus is most often found near the Arctic Circle, lying on the ice with hundreds of companions. These marine mammals are extremely sociable, prone to loudly bellowing and snorting at one another, but are aggressive during mating season. With wrinkled brown and pink hides, walruses are distinguished by their long white tusks, grizzly whiskers, flat flipper, and bodies full of blubber.
    Walruses use their iconic long tusks for a variety of reasons, each of which makes their lives in the Arctic a bit easier. They use them to haul their enormous bodies out of frigid waters, thus their "tooth-walking" label, and to break breathing holes into ice from below. Their tusks, which are found on both males and females, can extend to about three feet (one meter), and are, in fact, large canine teeth, which grow throughout their lives. Male walruses, or bulls, also employ their tusks aggressively to maintain territory and, during mating season, to protect their harems of females, or cows.
    The walrus' other characteristic features are equally useful. As their favorite meals, particularly shellfish, are found near the dark ocean floor, walruses use their extremely sensitive whiskers, called mustacial vibrissae, as detection devices. Their blubbery bodies allow them to live comfortably in the Arctic region—walruses are capable of slowing their heartbeats in order to withstand the polar temperatures of the surrounding waters.
    The two subspecies of walrus are divided geographically. Atlantic walruses inhabit coastal areas from northeastern Canada to Greenland, while Pacific walruses inhabit the northern seas off Russia and Alaska, migrating seasonally from their southern range in the Bering Sea—where they are found on the pack ice in winter—to the Chukchi Sea. Female Pacific walruses give birth to calves during the spring migration north.
    Only Native Americans are currently allowed to hunt walruses, as the species' survival was threatened by past overhunting. Their tusks, oil, skin, and meat were so sought after in the 18th and 19th centuries that the walrus was hunted to extinction in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and around Sable Island, off the coast of Nova Scotia.

  16. #16
    Logios's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Is Jesus God or the son of God?

    We are all sons and daughters of the Divine, noone (jesus included) more than anyone else. Then again, God is everything and everybody, so both I guess.

  17. #17
    Tankbuster's Avatar Analogy Nazi
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    Default Re: Is Jesus God or the son of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fingy View Post
    Is this one of those issues that will never be resolved?
    Not really. The concept of the Trinity has been firmly established to be a part of Christian doctrine since the Nicene Creed in 325 CE. Jesus is God's incarnation in human form; he's a facet of God, you might say, in the sense that Jesus is the way in which God manifest(ed)/manifests on Earth. The Holy Spirit is another facet of God. The three facets are referred to as the Trinity; three different expressions of God.

    Christians even tend to see this as a necessary belief to be a Christian; that's why it's in the Nicene Creed in the first place - though there was plenty of debate on the subject before it was established.

    As for the passages in the Bible which you seem to have trouble with (particularly in Mark and Matthew, I imagine)... I certainly have an explanation for why the earliest gospels don't seem to represent Jesus as being God incarnate, but let's just say that it's not an explanation Christians like to hear...

    So you'll have to ask your fellow believers about that (or technically they're not your fellow believers anymore, considering your belief marks you as a non-Christian to most Christians, teehee )
    Last edited by Tankbuster; January 02, 2011 at 03:25 PM.
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  18. #18
    Squiggle's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Is Jesus God or the son of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tankbuster View Post
    Christians even tend to see this as a necessary belief to be a Christian; that's why it's in the Nicene Creed in the first place - though there was plenty of debate on the subject before it was established.
    Wtf? The debate wasnt on the trinity itself, but the nature of the trinity. Does the son precede from the father or is he co eternal, etc. Outside of a few kookie Egyptian mystic sects of Christianity, I dont know of any early Christians who ever didn't follow the trinity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fingy View Post
    I apologize if there is already a thread on this topic but I did a quick search and didnt find anything.

    Last night I was debating my step father on the nature of Christ. I argued that Jesus was the son of God, a separate being from God. He is convinced that Jesus IS God. From my reading of the gospels I really got the idea that Jesus is the human son of God not God in human form. I referred to Jesus' baptism by John the baptist when Jesus divine origin is first revealed to him.

    Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Jesus also prays to God, which wouldnt make any sense if he was God. (Mat 26:42, Mat 27:46) I could go on with examples of Jesus being a separate being from God.

    Is this one of those issues that will never be resolved?
    Yeah, I'd just like to reaffirm what others have said. The trinity is foundational to Christianity, and you are not a Christian if you reject Jesus' divinity. Orthodox Christianity states The Son is co eternal and co equal with the father and the holy spirit, but the son in human form, obviously, was not omnipotent and omniscient [when the end comes, not even I know, etc]. Why would he not pray to the Father, anyway? They are separate persons of the same being, in perfect harmony.
    Last edited by Squiggle; January 02, 2011 at 03:41 PM.
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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Is Jesus God or the son of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squiggle View Post
    Wtf? The debate wasnt on the trinity itself, but the nature of the trinity. Does the son precede from the father or is he co eternal, etc. Outside of a few kookie Egyptian mystic sects of Christianity, I dont know of any early Christians who ever didn't follow the trinity.
    There is a reason why Arianism was popular...
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    Squiggle's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Is Jesus God or the son of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    There is a reason why Arianism was popular...
    I don't know what to make of this post, but Arianism didnt reject the trinity. Arianism claimed the son proceeded from the Father and was inferior to him, whereas traditional Christianity says the son is co equal and co eternal. Both are trinitarian ideas...
    Man will never be free until the last King is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
    ― Denis Diderot
    ~
    As for politics, I'm an Anarchist. I hate governments and rules and fetters. Can't stand caged animals. People must be free.
    ― Charlie Chaplin

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