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  1. #1
    waidizss's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default The best ideology

    Lately(a couple of years now) i have been wondering, writing down, thinking and talking about the perfect ideology and now i'm here asking for you to help me. All ideas are welcome.
    For starters i based on communism. Anti-nationalism, anti-racism, anti-religion, anti-capitalism. I have been thinking how to motivate people, like let's say if you achieve a lot you get bonuses. Money as a value would be abolished. everthing is payed by a card. Such values as greed, family, god are obsolete( due to the new structure of society which would require some casualties). The new values would be to help others and stuff. Of course for this to work someone would need to unite the world under one flag. All land would belong to the state. Efficient bureaucracy would be a necessity.
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  2. #2
    Tiberios's Avatar Le Paysan Soleil
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    Default Re: The perfect ideology

    There is no perfect ideology.

  3. #3
    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The best ideology

    I love this, it's so wonderfully naive. It's hilarious how your ideology is just a mashup of words you've learned over the years. But keep at it, when you get older you'll be able to look back on this post and have a good laugh
    Last edited by Viking Prince; January 02, 2011 at 06:58 PM. Reason: discussing the member is off topic
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

  4. #4
    waidizss's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: The best ideology

    sorry for being an idealist
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  5. #5
    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The best ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by waidizss View Post
    sorry for being an idealist
    You seem sincere, so I'll give you my commentary on your ideology to do you a favour. When I was your age, and Croccer too it seems, I too was a far leftist and I thought communism was the best idea ever and revolution sounded like a bloody amazing idea to get things done.

    Eight years later I realise it's a bunch of silliness, and back then I thought that everyone who told me this was just bitter with old age and couldn't understand the greatness of my idealistic vision. Funny stuff.

    Anyway, here's what I've got for you (keep in mind this is all constructive criticism intended to teach you a few things):

    Anti-nationalism, anti-racism, anti-religion, anti-capitalism.
    You can't run an ideology based on things that it is against. This is what a lot of populists these day for example, they are against a whole load of things that are happening and thats what they base their party around. Let's think this through to conclusion: if an ideology is against a bunch of things, what's it going to do when its accomplished what it set out to do? If you're anti-something, you are relevant only as long as that thing you are against actually exists.

    I have been thinking how to motivate people, like let's say if you achieve a lot you get bonuses.
    This seems like an odd thing to say immediately after starting off by saying that you're against a bunch of stuff. But fair enough. If you achieve a lot you get a lot of bonuses? What does that mean? You just said you were anti-capitalism. So where's that thinking taking you? Big contradiction here.

    Money as a value would be abolished. everthing is payed by a card.
    So there will still be money except it will be digital. You realise that the existence of digital money these days is part of what economists point out as a problem with capitalism right? Because there exist massive virtual debts that can't even be expressed with hard cash. So again, you're anti-capitalism but then still want to head in a direction where real money is no longer used and everything's digital. Doesn't work that way.

    Such values as greed, family, god are obsolete( due to the new structure of society which would require some casualties).
    So you want to motivate people by giving them money from creditcards in your perfect anticapitalist world, but then if people get greedy for this virtual cash they have to do. I see. You realise that doesn't work at all. You think greed is related to the ideology of a country? Mate, you could throw six cavemen a bone and see what happens. Greed exists everywhere, you can't abolish it. Family? Now you're touching on a subject that I think goes way above your head for now, namely the nature of human beings. How we are individuals but require a collective to survive both mentally and physically.

    God? Oh, man. I don't even want to go into this one at all right now. So in your perfect, anti-capitalist and anti-religious nation where nobody would be a racist ever, you'd be killed for being greedy, loving your family or believing in god (believing in god and being religious are not the same thing by the way). This is more and more starting to look like Joseph Stalin meets International Banking and a lot less like the perfect ideology. But again, you're still young so it's ok.

    The new values would be to help others and stuff.
    Help others and stuff. Perfect ideologies have perfect descriptions And stuff doesn't cut it. Helping others is already a value in today's world, by the way. You know, that crazy world you live in right now where people don't get shot for wanting to earn some physical money or loving their family.

    Of course for this to work someone would need to unite the world under one flag. All land would belong to the state. Efficient bureaucracy would be a necessity.
    Of course! So how are you going to unite a Colombian and a Korean under one flag? Or a Russian and an American? Or an Englishman and an Indonesian? There's nothing to unite, here. You seem to think that borders are just an artificial construction. Consider this instead: the world has already been running for thousands of years before you were born. History is full of events you don't even know anything about. It's your lack of knowledge about these events that make it impossible for you to design a "perfect ideology" at this point without resorting to things like shooting everyone who disagrees.

    I think it's funny and above all innocent. I would encourage you to keep it up and to keep reading and caring about politics and history and whatnot. But you've a lot of exploring to do. This doesn't have anything to do with idealism, this is about being informed. It's very easy to think you've got the world all figured out when you have no frame of reference, but you'll grow older and realise that the frame of reference you lacked when you were younger is actually way bigger than you had ever expected and that it gets harder and harder to understand how things really work.
    Last edited by The Dude; January 02, 2011 at 12:51 PM.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The best ideology

    Unlike The Dude, I would encourage you. Don't be sorry, be determined. The Write Brothers were the first to fly an airplane but they were preceded by many dreamers and failures at whom people laughed and ridiculed. Who knows, you might just succeed at this seemingly impossible task.

    Although your current thoughts seem to have too much of the word "anti-" in my opinion.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The best ideology

    I'd say the best ideology is that what harms the least people.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  8. #8

    Default Re: The best ideology

    I second the Dude. This is the idealistic far left phase that a lot of teens go through. You'll grow out of it soon enough. I was the same when I was 16. You'll become more jaded after a few discussions and a bit of reading.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  9. #9
    waidizss's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: The best ideology

    Maybe this is the age that the best ideas come. The older you get the less moral you become. So plausible the age of 15-25 may be the age when you have the brightest and most moral mind.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: The best ideology

    It's when you're most naive yet also when your first interest in politics start to develop. After you take part in discussions and read some factual books regarding economics, history and so on you'll moderate. Idealism only lasts into adulthood when there are no others or facts to shoot it down.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  11. #11
    waidizss's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: The best ideology

    Maybe you are naive for not being an idealist. Surely i know the difference between reality and ideal.
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  12. #12
    Axeman's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The best ideology

    Utopianism is not an ideology.

    All of the things you mentioned are admirable things to desire, no war, eternal peace, ect...

    The problem is how best to come about these or move towards these. Any action that moves towards those is an acceptable stance to take, but the BEST stance to take however is entirely up for debate.

    Also you cannot be naive for not being an idealist...

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    If there were a God, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt his existence. --Bertrand Russell

  13. #13
    waidizss's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: The best ideology

    Sure war is harmful for the people in it but in war biggest technological advances are being made so you can't say it is good or bad.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: The best ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by waidizss View Post
    Sure war is harmful for the people in it but in war biggest technological advances are being made so you can't say it is good or bad.
    Have you ever experienced war?
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  15. #15
    waidizss's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: The best ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    Have you ever experienced war?

    This is not on topic and will not be answered.

    But i will never state that it was "bad"
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  16. #16

    Default Re: The best ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by waidizss View Post
    This is not on topic and will not be answered.
    How convenient.

    Quote Originally Posted by waidizss View Post
    But i will never state that it was "bad"
    OTOH never mind, you've allready answered.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  17. #17

    Default Re: The best ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by waidizss View Post
    Sure war is harmful for the people in it but in war biggest technological advances are being made so you can't say it is good or bad.
    "War is delightful to those who have not experienced it"
    Desiderius Erasmus
    The prince must be a fox... to recognize the traps and a lion to frighten the wolves

  18. #18
    Axeman's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The best ideology

    I kill your mother in a war.
    I then loot your village.
    I then shoot your entire family because I can.

    Here is your new Toy 20 years ahead of its time.

    Trade?

    ☻/ This is Muhammad.
    /▌  Copy and paste him
    / \ so as to commit horrible blasphemy!
    If there were a God, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt his existence. --Bertrand Russell

  19. #19

    Default Re: The best ideology

    And who will organize this society of yours?

  20. #20
    waidizss's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: The best ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by Axeman View Post
    I kill your mother in a war.
    I then loot your village.
    I then shoot your entire family because I can.

    Here is your new Toy 20 years ahead of its time.

    Trade?
    Maybe if it was 400 years ahead of time then we could talk.
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