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    Default Health insurance - a right?

    Especially because of Obama's healthcare reform the subject of health insurance has become the topic of many heated discussions. However, I think it is a quite important matter, regardless of current political events or the situation in the US.

    I live in a country (Germany) in which basically everyone has some sort of health insurance - however, in many countries that is not the case. Now the point of this thread is to discuss the following question: should everyone have health insurance? Should the state provide it for those who can't afford it? Is having health insurance a human right?

    Some people say that the state shouldn't force you to have health insurance. After all, you are free to spend your money on whatever you want to and the government shouldn't interfere with your personal decisions. I can understand that position, but the problem is that humans are generally rather shortsighted. Why should a young, healthy person get insured when it costs him lots of money every year? Why not spend that money on a car instead? However, what if he suddenly is diagnosed with a curable disease, but cannot afford the treatment because he isn't insured? "Tough luck?" In that case, society either has to say "serves you right" and let him die - which would be quite cruel, undoubtedly - or help him anyway. But then the question is, why not 'force' him to get an insurance in the first place?

    I for my part think that the high insurance costs are part of the problem. People wouldn't choose not to be insured if insurance wasn't as expensive (in some countries, at least). Therefore, the government should provide some sort of cheap(er) insurance and/or somehow lower the costs of private insurances. People who want to be insured could then afford it easily but they would still not be forced to have insurance.
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  2. #2
    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
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    Default Re: Health insurance - a right?

    A very good short description of the USA situation:

    The United States health care system ranks second to none in the quality of patient care for serious and life-threatening diseases, but we also have significant gaps in insurance coverage and financial incentives that drive up health care costs and encourage the overuse of certain types of care, including defensive medicine to ward off lawsuits. Public health care programs such as Medicare and Medicaid also suffer from substantial degrees of waste, fraud, and abuse, siphoning off scarce taxpayer funds that could be used for other priorities such as education or defense.
    Much of the waste and the high cost of health care can be attributed to the system of third-party payment for health care that has developed in this country since WWII. Third-party payment plans allow some consumers to use services without ever paying the full cost of health care utilization while others pay for benefits they don't need or want. The result is a system where health care costs spiral out of control and consumer choice is limited to the one or two insurance plans usually offered by employers. The Center for Medical Progress advocates for putting patients in charge of their own routine health care decisions and spending, reserving insurance for truly catastrophic injuries; and creating an interstate market for health insurance that encourages customized insurance plans and competition to provide high quality health care to all Americans.
    http://www.medicalprogresstoday.com/category/cdhc.php

    I dislike the phrase 'waste, fraud, and abuse' though. If identified, it should be easy to take action. If not identified, it is almost impossible to fix. All systems have this type of leakage.

    The problem is finding the balance between personal expenditures to maximize personal utility and the need for government expenditures for covering the gaps created in the system. No system of paying for medical care should result people suffering simply because they are poor. However, like all of life we always want more than resources can deliver. If all is in private hands, this becomes a personal problem resolved by the limit of personal resources. But the government tends to simply add more spending rather than take a look at the system which is also not very efficient. The problem is to create a balance between public and private to manage our resources.

    A good example of that is chronic care. I have a kidney problem. Yes it is partially a result of personal choices of lifestyle. Yes it partially a result of neglected preventative care. Yet, I am still able to hopefully avoid the potential future problems of diabetes or kidney failure with the use of drugs, diagnostic tests and exams, and a change in lifestyle. All of this costs money, but less money than dialysis (chronic care) or a kidney transplant (major medical acute care). I am fortunate that I understand the issues, have the personal resources (private HMO insurance), and a willingness to take some personal responsability. But what if I did not have the personal resources? What if I choose not to take the personal responsibility to head off future problems such as weight or high blood pressure?

    But how to solve this as a public policy will remain a problem since there needs to be a balance between public programs and private financed care. What should be government's role in this problem? What should remain a private role?
    Last edited by Viking Prince; January 01, 2011 at 01:19 AM.
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    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Health insurance - a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    A very good short description of the USA situation:

    http://www.medicalprogresstoday.com/category/cdhc.php

    I dislike the phrase 'waste, fraud, and abuse' though. If identified, it should be easy to take action. If not identified, it is almost impossible to fix. All systems have this type of leakage.

    The problem is finding the balance between personal expenditures to maximize personal utility and the need for government expenditures for covering the gaps created in the system. No system of paying for medical care should result people suffering simply because they are poor. However, like all of life we always want more than resources can deliver. If all is in private hands, this becomes a personal problem resolved by the limit of personal resources. But the government tends to simply add more spending rather than take a look at the system which is also not very efficient. The problem is to create a balance between public and private to manage our resources.

    A good example of that is chronic care. I have a kidney problem. Yes it is partially a result of personal choices of lifestyle. Yes it partially a result of neglected preventative care. Yet, I am still able to hopefully avoid the potential future problems of diabetes or kidney failure with the use of drugs, diagnostic tests and exams, and a change in lifestyle. All of this costs money, but less money than dialysis (chronic care) or a kidney transplant (major medical acute care). I am fortunate that I understand the issues, have the personal resources (private HMO insurance), and a willingness to take some personal responsability. But what if I did not have the personal resources? What if I choose not to take the personal responsibility to head off future problems such as weight or high blood pressure?

    But how to solve this as a public policy will remain a problem since there needs to be a balance between public programs and private financed care. What should be government's role in this problem? What should remain a private role?
    There is waste so why should government help those unable to purchase private healthcare?

    You may not want to purchase healthcare... thats your choice... but there are still thousands out there unable to to and who can benefit from government healthcare. Taxes pay for it of course but over the long run it would be cheaper than individuals purchasing private care. You would pay less out of your paycheck in taxes to support a universal system - for at least the basic life saving procedures.

    Sweden has an excellent health care system. They also have a private healthcare insurance system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jin View Post
    What is the typical tax on your income in the UK. Ive heard it's upwards of 40-50%? I also heard that in the Scandinavian countries it's above 65% and even into 70%? Is this true or what, because if so that is just insane taxes compared to the US where it's typically 18-26% of your income based on your bracket I suppose.

    There are millions in the US that are uninsured and still make over 50,000 a year. Combine that with a two income house hold and the numbers can be misleading as far as uninsured or unable to afford insurance are concerned. Some are between jobs or the like and the percentage of those uninsured has actually gone down recently-- which is surprising in this economic climate.
    I'm American but im living in Sweden right now. Im making a little bit more than what I did in the States... its about equal. Sure I pay a lot in taxes but I get a lot back. The taxes go to public transportation and infrastructure and to healthcare. I dont know if you have been to sweden before but the public grid and layout is brilliant. Shopping centers are Shopping centers with apartments within walking distance and theres a bus stop near every residence. Everything is thought out. Compared to America Communities up in Stockholm are pretty futuristic... a little like the cities in the Halo game.
    Last edited by MathiasOfAthens; January 03, 2011 at 12:15 PM.

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    B5C's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Health insurance - a right?

    I believe it should be a right to keep it's citizen healthy. There are thousands of people here in the United States who lack good coverage and who are faced to pay huge bills which no one can afford. Get sick for one week and your financial ruined for the rest of your life. For example I told my wife if she get's injured. Instead of stitches. We should just get some super-glue and duct tape. At least it will will not have to spend $1,000 bucks. I had a friend who broke one of her toes. She had no insurance. She walks to work everyday. How did she fix her toe? She grabbed a pop-sickle stick and some duct tape and she walked on it for MONTHS.

    Also note I have to find insurance from my employer because I have some conditions right now that will deny me from every insurance company. Also there is no way in hell I can pay into a high risk pool because of it's price.

    Should Americans live that way?

    Also that Insurance companies are not here to help us. They are only here to make a profit. If you are an threat to their profit they will deny you.

    In the United States, it's the one who has the most money gets the best quality care. That is the American dream that we are told to dream in.

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    Clibby's Avatar Praetor Maximus
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    Default Re: Health insurance - a right?

    There are two problems you have here:

    1. Calling it health insurance implies that the people who pay into the system will receive the benefits should something go wrong; so are you talking about health insurance or health care?

    2. Is it the responsibility of the government to provide health care to it's citizens?

    I am not going to address this yet as I don't have the time for a lengthy response right now, but I wanted to steer the debate in a direction that will be productive to the users of the forum. I am going to assume that most people will say that the government does have a responsibility to its citizens, however the debate will be over how much responsibility and who will pay for it. If I have time, I will create a response, but I want to see what everyone else's thoughts are first.

    I will leave you with this tidbit of information relating to costs. The two most significant differences in overall costs on the healthcare system between the US and the rest of the world are the cost of prescription drugs and the cost of administrative duties in the US. If you are going to address healthcare in the US you will need to bring up these issues.





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    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
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    Default Re: Health insurance - a right?

    The easiest areas to publicly finance would be acute emergancy care (auto accidents, etc.) and chronic care (what would now be referred to as the high risk pool or preconditions that require frequent and continuing care. Both are expensive (thus the need for pooled resources) and both are not really preventable or planned for. By doing this, you would lower the cost of health plans.

    I am curious how Germany does their mix since it is not as government controlled as the British.
    Last edited by Viking Prince; January 01, 2011 at 01:21 AM.
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    Default Re: Health insurance - a right?

    Being in Australia we don’t pay separately for this (unless you want private health cover – gets you single room and choice of doctor), I pay taxes and expect government to take care of me in the case of sickness or accident.
    Two years ago I broke my leg playing football, got free ambulance, free 1week stay in hospital, free medication, free surgery and free $30k titanium rod inserted into my bone. (absolutely amazing experience, everybody was outstanding professional from nurses to doctors and surgeons – if anybody here works in PA you guys are kings... or queens... those nurses were spot on )


    I guess if the government lowered taxes and asked me to pay for it I would after this experience without any complaints but as my taxes are rather large I expect to get this for free.

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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Health insurance - a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astaroth View Post
    Especially because of Obama's healthcare reform the subject of health insurance has become the topic of many heated discussions. However, I think it is a quite important matter, regardless of current political events or the situation in the US.

    I live in a country (Germany) in which basically everyone has some sort of health insurance - however, in many countries that is not the case. Now the point of this thread is to discuss the following question: should everyone have health insurance? Should the state provide it for those who can't afford it? Is having health insurance a human right?

    Some people say that the state shouldn't force you to have health insurance. After all, you are free to spend your money on whatever you want to and the government shouldn't interfere with your personal decisions. I can understand that position, but the problem is that humans are generally rather shortsighted. Why should a young, healthy person get insured when it costs him lots of money every year? Why not spend that money on a car instead? However, what if he suddenly is diagnosed with a curable disease, but cannot afford the treatment because he isn't insured? "Tough luck?" In that case, society either has to say "serves you right" and let him die - which would be quite cruel, undoubtedly - or help him anyway. But then the question is, why not 'force' him to get an insurance in the first place?

    I for my part think that the high insurance costs are part of the problem. People wouldn't choose not to be insured if insurance wasn't as expensive (in some countries, at least). Therefore, the government should provide some sort of cheap(er) insurance and/or somehow lower the costs of private insurances. People who want to be insured could then afford it easily but they would still not be forced to have insurance.
    Well the argument for efficiency and what is the best way to do things is a very different argument to what is a right. Now before discussing what is a right I will say this about Obamas health care reforms. There are so many ways they could have made healthcare cheaper and more affordable creating massive efficiencies and reducing costs for everyone in the USA. That would have hurt entrenched interests so instead they went for a fundamental massive reform which ultimately was always going to fail and attach so many ammendments and riders that everyone will lose from adding costs to an already broken system.

    As to what is a right. I will post this from Francois tremblay that was posted in the thread 'From Morality to Ethics'

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=408881

    Its worth reading all of it by the way.

    The arrangement of human rights which maximize our freedom and everyone else’s freedom is an arrangement where rights correspond to innate natural law, that is to say where rights prevent our freedom from being impeded, and where corresponding access rights are granted. For instance, we naturally recognize that it is wrong for people, either as individuals or groups, to kill, hurt, kidnap, steal from, or defraud others without their consent. By extension, we can look at the behaviour of groups and say that it is wrong for groups to use force to prevent individuals from assembling, speaking freely, working, practicing a given religion, giving aid to each other, engaging in out-norm consensual practices, and so on. These are all things which impede freedom. Therefore we draw the conclusion that there is such a thing as a right to be alive, to be healthy, to move about, to the things we own, to be told the truth in official matters, to assemble, to speak freely, to work, to practice a given religion, to give aid to others, to engage in out-norm consensual practices, and so on. And if there are such rights, then there are also rights to access these resources which make it possible for us to be alive, healthy, to move about, and so on (I will discuss later what exactly this access entails).

    ......................

    Note that this does not imply that shelter, food, health care, and so on, must be provided by The State/corporations/free/on a monetary basis/capitalistically/socialistically/communistically. Each of these concepts or ideologies must be evaluated on the basis of the principles of ethics we have determined

    I really want to see the best healthcare for all and I want to see more resources for old and sick people. To make a small gain though or even a large gain, I will not advocate forcing a monopoly on healthcare just to try and make a bad effort at increasing welfare for the general public.

    The most disappointing thing of all is that the USA could have free'd up their system and seen some massive improvements but business interests would never have allowed things to disrupt their pork barrel.

    I know people don't like Ron Paul but I still like most things he says, who could argue with healthcare before the military, before empire building and war. Here is a summary of thoughts and voting recoreds with explanations about the votes:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Replace Medicaid with volunteer pro-bono medical care

    In the days before Medicare and Medicaid, the poor and elderly were admitted to hospitals at the same rate they are now, and received good care. Before those programs came into existence, every physician understood that he or she had a responsibility towards the less fortunate and free medical care was the norm. Hardly anyone is aware of this today, since it doesn’t fit into the typical, by the script story of government rescuing us from a predatory private sector.
    Source: The Revolution: A Manifesto, by Ron Paul, p. 84 Apr 1, 2008
    Private medical savings accounts, not government meddling

    The most obvious way to break this cycle is to get the government out of the business of meddling in health care, which was far more affordable and accessible before government got involved. Short of that, and more politically feasible in the immediate run, is to allow consumers and their doctors to pull themselves out of the system through medical savings accounts.
    Source: The Revolution: A Manifesto, by Ron Paul, p. 89 Apr 1, 2008
    Insurance companies & gov’t make healthcare unaffordable

    Q: You say that insurance companies and government programs have made health care simply unaffordable. You objected so strongly to Medicaid that, as a doctor, I’m told, you simply treated patients on your own, at your own expense.
    A: Well, we’ve had managed care, now, for about 35 years. It’s not working, and nobody’s happy with it. The doctors aren’t happy. The patients aren’t happy. Nobody seems to be happy--except the corporations, the drug companies and the HMOs.
    Source: 2007 GOP primary debate in Orlando, Florida Oct 21, 2007
    Transfer funds from debt & empire-building to healthcare

    We have a mess because a lot of people are very dependent on health care. But we’re going broke, with $500 billion going to debt every single year, and we have a foreign policy that is draining us. I say, take care of these poor people. I’m not against that. But save the money someplace. The only place available for us to save it is to change our attitude about running a world empire and bankrupting this country. We can take care of the poor people, save money and actually cut some of our deficit.
    Source: 2007 GOP primary debate in Orlando, Florida Oct 21, 2007
    Socialized medicine won’t work; nor managed care

    You don’t have to throw anybody out in the street, but long term you have move toward the marketplace. You cannot expect socialized medicine of the Hillary brand to work. And you can’t expect the managed care system that we have today [to work, because it] promotes and rewards the corporations. It’s the drug companies & the HMOs & even the AMA that lobbies us for this managed care, and that’s why the prices are high. It’s only in medicine that technology has raised prices rather than lowering prices.
    Source: 2007 GOP primary debate in Orlando, Florida Oct 21, 2007
    Managed care is expensive and hasn’t worked

    Q: What does your health care plan contain to address racial disparities in access to care?
    A: We’ve had managed care in this country since the early 1970s, and it hasn’t worked well. It’s very, very expensive, and it’s the fault that we changed our ERISA law and our tax laws that created this corporatism that runs medicine. Wall Street rakes off the profits. The patients are unhappy. The doctors are unhappy. And it’s a monopoly now. Who lobbies us in Washington? The drug companies and the HMOs. They come. And now what is the cry for? Socialized medicine. That’s not the answer. We need to get the government out of the way. Inflation hits the middle class and the poor the most. Those are the people who are losing it. We don’t have enough competition. There’s a doctor monopoly out there. We need alternative health care freely available to the people. They ought to be able to make their own choices and not controlled by the FDA preventing them to use some of the medications.
    Source: 2007 GOP Presidential Forum at Morgan State University Sep 27, 2007
    Oppose mandated health insurance and universal coverage

    Q: Nations with socialized medicine reduced the cost of their healthcare systems by restricting patients’ access that needed treatments and healthcare rationing. Will you protect the availability of needed medical care by opposing current efforts to subject Americans to government-mandated health insurance and universal coverage?
    HUCKABEE: Yes.
    TANCREDO: Yes.
    COX: Yes.
    BROWNBACK: Yes.
    PAUL: Yes.
    HUNTER: Yes.
    KEYES: Yes.
    Source: [Xref Huckabee] 2007 GOP Values Voter Presidential Debate Sep 17, 2007
    Not government’s role to protect people like Terri Schiavo

    Q: My name is Bobby Schindler, and I’m with the Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation. My beloved sister Terri Schiavo was starved & dehydrated to death, in the land of abundance. The world watched because she was disabled & unable to speak for herself. Would you support legislation that would protect the cognitively disabled & vulnerable people from having their food & water taken away?
    HUCKABEE:Yes.
    TANCREDO:Yes.
    COX:Yes.
    BROWNBACK: Yes.
    PAUL: No.
    HUNTER: Yes.
    KEYES:Yes.
    Source: 2007 GOP Values Voter Presidential Debate Sep 17, 2007
    Insurance reward for avoiding tobacco, alcohol, obesity

    Q: Healthcare consumes up to 17% of our GNP. It appears that lifestyles that are based in moral principles would reduce healthcare expenditures. Would you support a private healthcare approach that rewards behavior that promotes moral lifestyles-- that is, avoiding alcohol and tobacco consumption, as well as obesity reduction, exercise and nutrition that promotes health?
    HUCKABEE: Yes.
    TANCREDO: Yes.
    COX: Yes.
    BROWNBACK: Yes.
    PAUL: Yes.
    HUNTER: Yes.
    KEYES: Yes.
    Source: [Xref Huckabee] 2007 GOP Values Voter Presidential Debate Sep 17, 2007
    Voted NO on regulating tobacco as a drug.

    Congressional Summary:Amends the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FFDCA) to provide for the regulation of tobacco products by the Secretary of Health and Human Services through the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Defines a tobacco product as any product made or derived from tobacco that is intended for human consumption. Excludes from FDA authority the tobacco leaf and tobacco farms.
    Opponent's argument to vote No:Rep. HEATH SHULER (D, NC-11): Putting a dangerous, overworked FDA in charge of tobacco is a threat to public safety. Last year, the FDA commissioner testified that he had serious concerns that this bill could undermine the public health role of the FDA. And the FDA Science Board said the FDA's inability to keep up with scientific advancements means that Americans' lives will be at risk.
    Proponent's argument to vote Yes: Rep. HENRY WAXMAN (D, CA-30): The bill before us, the Waxman-Platts bill, has been carefully crafted over more than a decade, in close consultation with the public health community. It's been endorsed by over 1,000 different public health, scientific, medical, faith, and community organizations.
    Sen. HARRY REID (D, NV): Yesterday, 3,500 children who had never smoked before tried their first cigarette. For some, it will also be their last cigarette but certainly not all. If you think 3,500 is a scary number, how about 3.5 million. That is a pretty scary number. That is how many American high school kids smoke--3.5 million. Nearly all of them aren't old enough to buy cigarettes. It means we have as many boys and girls smoking as are participating in athletics in high schools. We have as many as are playing football, basketball, track and field, and baseball combined.
    Reference: Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act; Bill HR1256&S982 ; vote number 2009-H187 on Apr 2, 2009
    Voted NO on expanding the Children's Health Insurance Program.

    Congressional Summary:
    Reauthorizes State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) through FY2013 at increased levels.
    Gives states the option to cover targeted low-income pregnant women
    Phases out coverage for nonpregnant childless adults.
    Proponent's argument to vote Yes:
    Rep. FRANK PALLONE (D, NJ-6): In the last Congress, we passed legislation that enjoyed bipartisan support as well as the support of the American people. Unfortunately, it did not enjoy the support of the President, who vetoed our bill twice, and went on to proclaim that uninsured children can simply go to the emergency room to have their medical needs met. As the Nation moves deeper into a recession and unemployment rates continue to rise, millions of Americans are joining the ranks of the uninsured, many of whom are children. We can't delay. We must enact this legislation now.
    Opponent's argument to vote No:Rep. ROY BLUNT (R, MI-7): This bill doesn't require the States to meet any kind of threshold standard that would ensure that States were doing everything they could to find kids who needed insurance before they begin to spend money to find kids who may not have the same need. Under the bill several thousands of American families would be poor enough to qualify for SCHIP and have the government pay for their health care, but they'd be rich enough to still be required to pay the alternative minimum tax. The bill changes welfare participation laws by eliminating the 5-year waiting period for legal immigrants to lawfully reside in the country before they can participate in this program. In the final bill, we assume that 65% of the children receiving the benefit wouldn't get the benefit anymore. It seems to me this bill needs more work, would have benefited from a committee hearing. It doesn't prioritize poor kids to ensure that they get health care first.
    Reference: SCHIP Reauthorization Act; Bill H.R.2 ; vote number 2009-H016 on Jan 14, 2009
    Voted NO on overriding veto on expansion of Medicare.

    Congressional Summary:
    Extends Medicare to cover additional preventive services.
    Includes body mass index and end-of-life planning among initial preventive physical examinations.
    Eliminates by 2014 [the currently higher] copayment rates for Medicare psychiatric services.
    Pres. GEORGE W. BUSH's veto message (argument to vote No):
    I support the primary objective of this legislation, to forestall reductions in physician payments. Yet taking choices away from seniors to pay physicians is wrong. This bill is objectionable, and I am vetoing it because:
    It would harm beneficiaries by taking private health plan options away from them.
    It would undermine the Medicare prescription drug program.
    It is fiscally irresponsible, and it would imperil the long-term fiscal soundness of Medicare by using short-term budget gimmicks that do not solve the problem.
    In addition, H.R. 6331 would delay important reforms like the Durable Medical Equipment, Prosthetics, Orthotics, and Supplies competitive bidding program. Changing policy in mid-stream is also confusing to beneficiaries who are receiving services from quality suppliers at lower prices. In order to slow the growth in Medicare spending, competition within the program should be expanded, not diminished.
    Proponent's argument to vote Yes: Sen. PATTY MURRAY (D, WA): President Bush vetoed a bill that would make vital improvements to the program that has helped ensure that millions of seniors and the disabled can get the care they need. This bill puts an emphasis on preventive care that will help our seniors stay healthy, and it will help to keep costs down by enabling those patients to get care before they get seriously ill. This bill will improve coverage for low-income seniors who need expert help to afford basic care. It will help make sure our seniors get mental health care.
    Reference: Medicare Improvements for Patients and Providers Act; Bill HR.6331 ; vote number 2008-H491 on Jul 15, 2008
    Voted NO on giving mental health full equity with physical health.

    CONGRESSIONAL SUMMARY:
    Paul Wellstone Mental Health and Addiction Equity Act of 2008: Requires group health plans to apply the same treatment limits on mental health or substance-related disorder benefits as they do for medical and surgical benefits (parity requirement).
    Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act of 2008: Prohibits a group health plan from adjusting premium or contribution amounts for a group on the basis of genetic information.
    SUPPORTER'S ARGUMENT FOR VOTING YES:Rep. PALLONE. This is a comprehensive bill which will establish full mental health and addiction care parity. The Mental Health Parity Act of 1996 authorized for 5 years partial parity by mandating that the annual and lifetime dollar limit for mental health treatment under group health plans offering mental health coverage be no less than that for physical illnesses. This bill requires full parity and also protects against discrimination by diagnosis.
    OPPONENT'S ARGUMENT FOR VOTING NO:Rep. DEAL of Georgia: I am a supporter of the concept of mental health parity, but this bill before us today is not the correct approach. This path will raise the price of health insurance, and would cause some to lose their health insurance benefits and some employers to terminate mental health benefits altogether.
    The bill's focus is also overly broad. Our legislation should focus on serious biologically-based mental disorders like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, not on jet lag and caffeine addiction, as this bill would include. There are no criteria for judicial review, required notice and comment, or congressional review of future decisions.
    I would ask my colleagues to vote "no" today so that we can take up the Senate bill and avoid a possible stalemate in a House-Senate conference on an issue that should be signed into law this Congress.
    LEGISLATIVE OUTCOME:Bill passed House, 268-148
    Reference: Mental Health and Addiction Equity Act; Bill H.R.1424 ; vote number 08-HR1424 on Mar 5, 2008
    Voted NO on Veto override: Extend SCHIP to cover 6M more kids.

    OnTheIssues Explanation: This vote is a veto override of the SCHIP extension (State Children's Health Insurance Program). The bill passed the House 265-142 on 10/25/07, and was vetoed by Pres. Bush on 12/12/07.
    CONGRESSIONAL SUMMARY: This Act would enroll all 6 million uninsured children who are eligible, but not enrolled, for coverage under existing programs.
    PRESIDENT'S VETO MESSAGE: Our goal should be to move children who have no health insurance to private coverage--not to move children who already have private health insurance to government coverage. My Administration strongly supports reauthorization of SCHIP. [But this bill, even with changes, does not meet the requirements I outlined].
    It would still shift SCHIP away from its original purpose by covering adults. It would still include coverage of many individuals with incomes higher than the median income. It would still result in government health care for approximately 2 million children who already have private health care coverage.
    SUPPORTER'S ARGUMENT FOR VOTING YES:Rep. DINGELL: This is not a perfect bill, but it is an excellent bipartisan compromise. The bill protects health insurance coverage for some 6 million children who now depend on SCHIP. It provides health coverage for 3.9 million children who are eligible, yet remain uninsured. Together, this is a total of better than 10 million young Americans who, without this legislation, would not have health insurance.
    The bill makes changes to accommodate the President's stated concerns.
    It terminates the coverage of childless adults in 1 year.
    It prohibits States from covering children in families with incomes above $51,000.
    It contains adequate enforcement to ensure that only US citizens are covered.
    It encourages securing health insurance provided through private employer.
    LEGISLATIVE OUTCOME:Veto override failed, 260-152 (2/3rds required)
    Reference: SCHIP Extension; Bill Veto override on H.R.3963 ; vote number 08-HR3963 on Jan 23, 2008
    Voted NO on adding 2 to 4 million children to SCHIP eligibility.

    Allows State Children's Health Insurance Programs (SCHIP), that require state legislation to meet additional requirements imposed by this Act, additional time to make required plan changes. Pres. Bush vetoed this bill on Dec. 12, 2007, as well as a version (HR976) from Feb. 2007.
    Proponents support voting YES because:
    Rep. DINGELL: This is not a perfect bill, but it is an excellent bipartisan compromise. The bill provides health coverage for 3.9 million children who are eligible, yet remain uninsured. It meets the concerns expressed in the President's veto message [from HR976]:
    It terminates the coverage of childless adults.
    It targets bonus payments only to States that increase enrollments of the poorest uninsured children, and it prohibits States from covering families with incomes above $51,000.
    It contains adequate enforcement to ensure that only US citizens are covered.
    Opponents recommend voting NO because:
    Rep. DEAL: This bill [fails to] fix the previous legislation that has been vetoed:
    On illegal immigration: Would the verification system prevent an illegal alien from fraudulently using another person's name to obtain SCHIP benefits? No.
    On adults in SCHIP: Up to 10% of the enrollees in SCHIP will be adults, not children, in the next 5 years, and money for poor children shouldn't go to cover adults.
    On crowd-out: The CBO still estimates there will be some 2 million people who will lose their private health insurance coverage and become enrolled in a government-run program.
    Veto message from President Bush:
    Like its predecessor, HR976, this bill does not put poor children first and it moves our country's health care system in the wrong direction. Ultimately, our goal should be to move children who have no health insurance to private coverage--not to move children who already have private health insurance to government coverage. As a result, I cannot sign this legislation.
    Reference: Children's Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act; Bill H.R. 3963 ; vote number 2007-1009 on Oct 25, 2007
    Voted YES on requiring negotiated Rx prices for Medicare part D.

    Would require negotiating with pharmaceutical manufacturers the prices that may be charged to prescription drug plan sponsors for covered Medicare part D drugs.
    Proponents support voting YES because:
    This legislation is an overdue step to improve part D drug benefits. The bipartisan bill is simple and straightforward. It removes the prohibition from negotiating discounts with pharmaceutical manufacturers, and requires the Secretary of Health & Human Services to negotiate. This legislation will deliver lower premiums to the seniors, lower prices at the pharmacy and savings for all taxpayers.
    It is equally important to understand that this legislation does not do certain things. HR4 does not preclude private plans from getting additional discounts on medicines they offer seniors and people with disabilities. HR4 does not establish a national formulary. HR4 does not require price controls. HR4 does not hamstring research and development by pharmaceutical houses. HR4 does not require using the Department of Veterans Affairs' price schedule.
    Opponents support voting NO because:
    Does ideological purity trump sound public policy? It shouldn't, but, unfortunately, it appears that ideology would profoundly change the Medicare part D prescription drug program, a program that is working well, a program that has arrived on time and under budget. The changes are not being proposed because of any weakness or defect in the program, but because of ideological opposition to market-based prices. Since the inception of the part D program, America's seniors have had access to greater coverage at a lower cost than at any time under Medicare.
    Under the guise of negotiation, this bill proposes to enact draconian price controls on pharmaceutical products. Competition has brought significant cost savings to the program. The current system trusts the marketplace, with some guidance, to be the most efficient arbiter of distribution.
    Reference: Medicare Prescription Drug Price Negotiation Act; Bill HR 4 ("First 100 hours") ; vote number 2007-023 on Jan 12, 2007
    Voted NO on denying non-emergency treatment for lack of Medicare co-pay.

    Vote to pass a resolution, agreeing to S. AMDT. 2691 that removes the following provisions from S 1932:
    Allows hospitals to refuse treatment to Medicaid patients when they are unable to pay their co-pay if the hospital deems the situation to be a non-emergency
    Excludes payment to grandparents for foster care
    Reference: Reconciliation resolution on the FY06 budget; Bill H Res 653 on S. AMDT. 2691 ; vote number 2006-004 on Feb 1, 2006
    Voted NO on limiting medical malpractice lawsuits to $250,000 damages.

    Vote to pass a bill that would limit the awards that plaintiffs and their attorneys could be given in medical malpractice cases. The bill would limit non-economic damages, including physical and emotional pain to $250,000. The bill would also limit punitive damages to $250,000 or double economic damages, whichever amount is greater. Punitive damages would be banned against makers and distributors of medical products if the Food and Drug Administration approved those products. The bill would call for all states to set damage caps but would not block existing state statutory limits. The bill would cap attorneys' contingency fees to 40% of the first $50,000 in damages; 33.3% of the next $50,000; 25% of the next $500,000; and 15% of any amount in excess of $600,000.
    Reference: Medical Malpractice Liability Limitation bill; Bill HR 4280 ; vote number 2004-166 on May 12, 2004
    Voted NO on limited prescription drug benefit for Medicare recipients.

    Medicare Prescription Drug and Modernization Act of 2003: Vote to adopt the conference report on the bill that would create a prescription drug benefit for Medicare recipients. Starting in 2006, prescription coverage would be made available through private insurers to seniors. Seniors would pay a monthly premium of an estimated $35 in 2006. Individuals enrolled in the plan would cover the first $250 of annual drug costs themselves, and 25 percent of all drug costs up to $2,250. The government would offer a fallback prescription drug plan in regions were no private plans had made a bid.Over a 10 year time period medicare payments to managed care plans would increase by $14.2 billion. A pilot project would begin in 2010 in which Medicare would compete with private insurers to provide coverage for doctors and hospitals costs in six metropolitan areas for six years. The importation of drugs from Canada would be approved only if HHS determines there is no safety risks and that consumers would be saving money.
    Reference: Bill sponsored by Hastert, R-IL; Bill HR.1 ; vote number 2003-669 on Nov 22, 2003
    Voted YES on allowing reimportation of prescription drugs.

    Pharmaceutical Market Access Act of 2003: Vote to pass a bill that would call for the Food and Drug Administration to begin a program that would permit the importation of FDA-approved prescription drugs from Australia, Canada, the European Union, Iceland, Israel, Japan, Lichtenstein, New Zealand, Norway, Switzerland and South Africa.
    Reference: Bill sponsored by Gutknecht, R-MN; Bill HR.2427 ; vote number 2003-445 on Jul 24, 2003
    Voted YES on small business associations for buying health insurance.

    Vote to pass a bill that would permit the creation of association health plans through which small companies could group together to buy insurance for their employees. Association health plans that cover employees in several states would be excused from many individual state insurance regulations but would be regulated by the Labor Department.
    Reference: Small Business Health Fairness Act; Bill HR 660 ; vote number 2003-296 on Jun 19, 2003
    Voted NO on capping damages & setting time limits in medical lawsuits.

    Help Efficient, Accessible, Low Cost, Timely Healthcare (HEALTH) Act of 2003: To improve patient access to health care services and provide improved medical care by reducing the excessive burden the liability system places on the health care delivery system. Limits the availability of punitive damages, and sets a 3-year limit for suing.
    Reference: Bill sponsored by Greenwood, R-PA; Bill HR 5 ; vote number 2003-64 on Mar 13, 2003
    Voted NO on subsidizing private insurance for Medicare Rx drug coverage.

    HR 4680, the Medicare Rx 2000 Act, would institute a new program to provide voluntary prescription drug coverage for Medicare beneficiaries through subsidies to private plans. The program would cost an estimated $40 billion over five years and would go into effect in fiscal 2003.
    Reference: Bill sponsored by Thomas, R-CA; Bill HR 4680 ; vote number 2000-357 on Jun 28, 2000
    Voted NO on banning physician-assisted suicide.

    Vote on HR 2260, the Pain Relief Promotion Act of 1999, would ban the use of drugs for physician-assisted suicide. The bill would not allow doctors to give lethal prescriptions to terminally ill patients, and instead promotes "palliative care," or aggressive pain relief techniques.
    Reference: Bill sponsored by Hyde, R-IL; Bill HR 2260 ; vote number 1999-544 on Oct 27, 1999
    Voted YES on establishing tax-exempt Medical Savings Accounts.

    The bill allows all taxpayers to create a tax-exempt account for paying medical expenses called a Medical Savings Account [MSA]. Also, the measure would allow the full cost of health care premiums to be taken as a tax deduction for the self-employed and taxpayers who are paying for their own insurance. The bill would also allow the establishment of "HealthMarts," regional groups of insurers, health care providers and employers who could work together to develop packages for uninsured employees. Another provision of the bill would establish "association health plan," in which organizations could combine resources to purchase health insurance at better rates than they could separately.
    Reference: Bill sponsored by Talent, R-MO; Bill HR 2990 ; vote number 1999-485 on Oct 6, 1999
    Abolish federal Medicare entitlement; leave it to states.

    Paul adopted the Republican Liberty Caucus Position Statement:
    As adopted by the General Membership of the Republican Liberty Caucus at its Biannual Meeting held December 8, 2000.
    WHEREAS libertarian Republicans believe in limited government, individual freedom and personal responsibility;
    WHEREAS we believe that government has no money nor power not derived from the consent of the people;
    WHEREAS we believe that people have the right to keep the fruits of their labor; and
    WHEREAS we believe in upholding the US Constitution as the supreme law of the land;
    BE IT RESOLVED that the Republican Liberty Caucus endorses the following [among its] principles:
    Free market health care alternatives, such as medical savings accounts, should be available to everyone, including senior citizens.
    The federal entitlement to Medicare should be abolished, leaving health care decision making regarding the elderly at the state, local, or personal level.
    Source: Republican Liberty Caucus Position Statement 00-RLC3 on Dec 8, 2000
    Limit anti-trust lawsuits on health plans and insurers.

    Paul co-sponsored limiting anti-trust lawsuits on health plans and insurers
    OFFICIAL CONGRESSIONAL SUMMARY:
    Delineates the relationship between the antitrust laws and negotiations between groups of health care professionals and health plans and health care insurance issuers.
    Applies the "rule of reason" standard to negotiations between a health plan and two or more physicians.
    Awards attorneys' fees to a substantially prevailing plaintiff only when the defendant's conduct was unreasonable or in bad faith.
    Prohibits tying arrangements (linking the participation in one product line to participation in another) between a health plan and health care professional.
    Excludes from this Act any negotiations or agreements including Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, or other federal programs.
    EXCERPTS FROM CONGRESSIONAL FINDINGS:
    Congress finds the following:
    A large number of Americans receive their health care coverage from managed health care plans.
    The market power of insurance companies has increased tremendously since the early 1990's, due to mergers and acquisitions.
    Health plans improperly manipulate the practice of medicine through such mechanisms as inappropriately making medical necessity determinations, and knowingly denying and delaying payment.
    The intent of the antitrust laws is to encourage competition and protect the consumer, and the current per se standard for enforcing the antitrust laws in the health care field frequently does not achieve these objectives.
    An application of the "rule of reason" will tend to promote both competition and high-quality patient care.
    In any action under the antitrust laws challenging a health plan, conduct shall not be deemed illegal per se, but shall be judged on the basis of its reasonableness, taking into account all relevant factors affecting competition and proposed contract terms.
    LEGISLATIVE OUTCOME: Referred to the House Committee on the Judiciary; never called for a House vote.
    Source: Health Care Antitrust Improvements Act (H.R.3897) 02-HR3897 on Mar 7, 2002
    Rated 56% by APHA, indicating a mixed record on public health issues.

    Paul scores 56% by APHA on health issues
    The American Public Health Association (APHA) is the oldest and largest organization of public health professionals in the world, representing more than 50,000 members from over 50 occupations of public health. APHA is concerned with a broad set of issues affecting personal and environmental health, including federal and state funding for health programs, pollution control, programs and policies related to chronic and infectious diseases, a smoke-free society, and professional education in public health.
    The following ratings are based on the votes the organization considered most important; the numbers reflect the percentage of time the representative voted the organization's preferred position.
    Source: APHA website 03n-APHA on Dec 31, 2003
    Prohibit mandatory mental health screen for students.

    Paul sponsored prohibiting mandatory mental health screening for students
    To prohibit the use of Federal funds for any universal or mandatory mental health screening program.
    Introductory statement by Sponsor:
    Rep. PAUL: This bill forbids Federal funds from being used for any universal or mandatory mental health screening of students without the express, written, voluntary, informed consent of their parents or legal guardian. This bill protects the fundamental right of parents to direct and control the upbringing and education of their children.
    [A Congressional commission] recommends that universal or mandatory mental health screening first be implemented in public schools as a prelude to expanding it to the general public. However, neither the commission's report nor any related mental health screening proposal requires parental consent before a child is subjected to mental health screening. Federally-funded universal or mandatory mental health screening in schools without parental consent could lead to labeling more children as "ADD" or "hyperactive" and thus force more children to take psychotropic drugs, such as Ritalin, against their parents' wishes.
    Many children have suffered harmful side effects from using psychotropic drugs. Some of the possible side effects include mania, violence, dependence, and weight gain. Yet, parents are already being threatened with child abuse charges if they resist efforts to drug their children. Imagine how much easier it will be to drug children against their parents' wishes if a Federally-funded mental health screener makes the recommendation.
    Source: Parental Consent Act (H.R.2387 ) 07-HR2387 on May 17, 2007
    Remove restrictions on estriol (menopause medication).

    Paul co-sponsored removing restrictions on estriol (menopause medication)
    A concurrent resolution expressing the sense of Congress that the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA) new policy restricting women's access to medications containing estriol does not serve the public interest.
    Whereas menopause is often a challenging transition for millions of women that requires specialized medications and medical treatments;
    Whereas physicians prescribe a variety of pharmaceutical treatment options to treat women experiencing the symptoms of menopause;
    Whereas individual women respond differently to different treatment options;
    Whereas women's physicians determine on a case-by-case basis which treatment option is optimal for each woman;
    Whereas many physicians prescribe compounded estrogen and other bioidentical hormone treatments for patients for a variety of reasons;
    Whereas many physicians prescribe compounded estrogen treatments that contain estriol to treat menopausal and perimenopausal women;
    Whereas estriol is one of three estrogens produced by the human body;
    Whereas estriol has been prescribed and used for decades in the United States;
    Whereas the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has announced that it will no longer permit compounding pharmacists to prepare medications containing estriol pursuant to a doctor's prescription;
    Whereas insurers are now denying women reimbursement for compounded medications containing estriol as a result of the FDA's announcement; and
    Whereas the FDA has acknowledged that it is unaware of any adverse events associated with use of compounded medications containing estriol:
    Now, therefore, be it Resolved, That it is the sense of the Congress that--
    physicians are in the best position to determine which medications are most appropriate for their patients;
    the FDA should respect the physician-patient relationship; and
    the FDA should reverse its policy that aims to eliminate patients' access to compounded medications containing estriol.
    Source: SCR88/HCR342 08-SCR88 on Jun 10, 2008
    Expand medical savings accounts for employers & individuals.

    Paul co-sponsored expanding medical savings accounts for employers
    To expand the availability of medical savings accounts. Amends the Internal Revenue Code with respect to medical savings accounts to:
    repeal the limitation on the number of accounts;
    make all employers (currently limited to small employers) eligible to offer accounts;
    increase contribution deduction amounts;
    permit employer and employee contributions;
    reduce high deductible health plan deductibles; and
    permit accounts to be offered under cafeteria plans.
    Source: Medical Savings Account Effectiveness Act (H.R.614) 1999-H614 on Feb 8, 1999
    Expedited licensing for biosimilar products.

    Paul signed Promoting Innovation & Access to Life-Saving Medicine Act
    Amends the Public Health Service Act to provide for the licensing of biosimilar and interchangeable biological products.
    Allows any person to file an abbreviated biological product application with the Secretary of Health and Human Services. Requires such applications to include information demonstrating a high degree of similarity or interchangeability between the biological product and the licensed biological product (reference product).
    Requires the Secretary to:
    approve an application and issue a license for a biosimilar product unless the Secretary finds and informs the applicant that the information in the application fails to demonstrate biosimilarity between the biological product and the reference product or the safety, purity, and potency of the biological product; and
    establish requirements for the efficient review, approval, suspension, and revocation of abbreviated biological product applications.
    Allows an applicant a determination as to the interchangeability of a product and its reference product based on whether a product can be expected to produce the same clinical result as the reference product in any given patient. Grants market exclusivity to any biological product that is determined to be interchangeable for a specified period.
    Sets forth provisions governing patent infringement claims involving comparable biological products and legal remedies to expedite the adjudication of patent infringement disputes.
    Extends the period for approval of biological products to allow for studies of the use of new biological products in the pediatric population.

  9. #9
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Health insurance - a right?

    Does health insurance contribute to:
    A The right to Life?
    B The right to Liberty?
    C The right to Property?
    D The right to Happiness?

    I would say: Yes.

    So the question becomes do we have a right to be provided with healthcare or a right to pursue healthcare? That's really the debate. The rule has forever been that we have the right to pursue these aims. We are not entitled happiness, we are entitled to seek happiness. So should the government provide healthcare to everyone or should it simply allow people to get healthcare? It already does the latter. Does it need to do the former?

    I don't see the big deal either way. Medicine has always been a social thing. The principles it is founded on are helping people not making money. So it makes sense to socialize medicine. Medicine is sort of an exception to most businesses. A good Lawyer has a duty to play by the rules, but they're basically in it for the money, no question really. Doctors really are in it to help people (and themselves.) And lawyers are already socialized... so logically... so should medicine.
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; January 01, 2011 at 03:17 PM.
    The Earth is inhabited by billions of idiots.
    The search for intelligent life continues...

  10. #10
    Azog 150's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Health insurance - a right?

    I have always viewed health care as a right. Its up to the government to ensure it has a healthy population and that everyone has access to health care. Providing health care should be one of its main priorities. I can't imagine living in a country in which your government will let you die in a gutter because you can't afford health care.

    I am happy with Britain's system. Everyone can use the NHS, and then there are private options there for those who want and can afford it.
    Under the Patronage of Jom!

  11. #11
    Hakkapeliitta's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Health insurance - a right?

    No! The government shouldn't treat its citizens like helpless children! And if you happen to be a helpless child, then you!

  12. #12
    B5C's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Health insurance - a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakkapeliitta View Post
    No! The government shouldn't treat its citizens like helpless children! And if you happen to be a helpless child, then you!
    So it's better for America to let the uninsured to receive no healthcare?

    “Nothing could be more dangerous to the existence of this Republic than to introduce religion into politics”

  13. #13
    Mr. Scott's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Health insurance - a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by B5C View Post
    So it's better for America to let the uninsured to receive no healthcare?
    Yes.

    The poor and the elderly are already covered. Those in the middle can get healthcare if they really wanted it. They shouldn't be covered as they have the ability to get it. Many are either irresponsible with their money and cannot afford it because of this financial irresponsibility, or simply do not want health coverage.
    “When my information changes, I alter my conclusions.” ― John Maynard Keynes

  14. #14

    Default Re: Health insurance - a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by scottypd54 View Post
    Yes.

    The poor and the elderly are already covered. Those in the middle can get healthcare if they really wanted it. They shouldn't be covered as they have the ability to get it. Many are either irresponsible with their money and cannot afford it because of this financial irresponsibility, or simply do not want health coverage.
    Those in the middle cannot all get coverage. Many cannot afford it. Or if they can get coverage, it is incredibly bad coverage, meaning many of their basic healthcare needs are still not met. The vast majority of people without health insurance want health insurance, but cannot afford even basic coverage.

    If someone doesn't want health coverage, guess what, it doesn't matter, he still gets "covered" when he goes to the emergency room. Would you rather cover this irresponsible person in a cheap, efficient way? Or cover him in the least efficient, most expensive way, as we do now?

    If you are willing to cover the poor and the elderly, why not just cover everyone, like every other developed nation does?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Health insurance - a right?

    The only people who get screwed in the system is the lower middle class.

    Lets get real cross state line competition in health insurance going to lower the cost, and that would help quite a bit.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  16. #16
    Mr. Scott's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Health insurance - a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    Those in the middle cannot all get coverage. Many cannot afford it. Or if they can get coverage, it is incredibly bad coverage, meaning many of their basic healthcare needs are still not met. The vast majority of people without health insurance want health insurance, but cannot afford even basic coverage.

    If you are willing to cover the poor and the elderly, why not just cover everyone, like every other developed nation does?
    Because it is inefficient and costly.

    As I said earlier. Those who cannot afford healthcare based on low-income and not financial irresponsiblity are covered. The old, who have no source of income, are covered.

    Just about all middle class can get coverage if thats a priority for them. But that mercedes is just too tantalizing sometimes.
    “When my information changes, I alter my conclusions.” ― John Maynard Keynes

  17. #17

    Default Re: Health insurance - a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by scottypd54 View Post
    Yes.

    The poor and the elderly are already covered. Those in the middle can get healthcare if they really wanted it. They shouldn't be covered as they have the ability to get it. Many are either irresponsible with their money and cannot afford it because of this financial irresponsibility, or simply do not want health coverage.
    Actually it's the opposite. Many can have trouble affording healthcare and are forced to be uninsured for cost reasons. Around a of Americans under 65 were forced to go without healthcare for longer than 6 months in 2007. And the notion that they're all non-productive and/or poor people is wrong as well. Only about 15% of the 86 million people who were uninsured at one point or another weren't members of the labour force and almost a quarter of people with incomes 4 times that of the poverty level and above went without healthcare at some point as well.

    Because it is inefficient and costly
    Except this is absolute . I've seen the laughable attempts by some to present the NHS closing local hospitals as support for the ''death panels'' myth. It's not costly either. The US now spends more on their bloated compromised healthcare system than any Western nation.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  18. #18

    Default Re: Health insurance - a right?

    What isn't a right these days? The word has lost all meaning thanks to people who believe society owes them everything.

  19. #19
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Health insurance - a right?

    There was relatively simple legislation which would have saved billions for Americans rich and poor and Barack Obama was potentially involved in shooting it down, it lost because business controls the USA government more than its people and its needs regardless of who was involved.

    The U.S. Senate on Tuesday rejected two proposals to allow Americans to buy cheaper prescription medicines from other nations, preserving a deal between the White House and the pharmaceutical industry.

    A bipartisan group of more than two dozen senators had sought to allow drug imports from Canada and other countries -- where drugs often sell at a much lower cost than in the United States. But they saw their proposal, which needed 60 votes to pass in the 100-member Senate, fall short by a vote of 51-48.

    "We shouldn't be paying the highest prices in the world," Democrat Byron Dorgan said before the vote on his proposal.

    continued

    Other senators backed a separate measure to allow imports that have been certified as safe by U.S. health officials. Also needing 60 votes, the proposal lost, 56-43.

    The measures were offered as part of broad Democratic legislation to overhaul the $2.5 trillion U.S. healthcare system by expanding access to health insurance, tightening insurance industry regulations and controlling certain costs.

    "It's really regrettable that the special interests again prevail," Republican Senator John McCain said.

    McCain, the 2008 Republican presidential nominee, and President Barack Obama both supported drug imports during last year's presidential campaign. But the Obama administration recently issued a letter from the Food and Drug Administration citing safety concerns.

    The importation of drugs from other countries has been proposed for years as a way to lower prescription drug costs.

    But allowing cheaper drugs could hurt revenues for the roughly $315 billion pharmaceutical industry, which boasts one of the strongest lobby groups in Washington and is a major backer of Obama's broader drive for healthcare reform.

    In an $80 billion, 10-year deal reached earlier this year with the White House and some Democratic senators, the industry agreed to help fund the proposed healthcare reforms through higher taxes and certain price agreements.

    'HIGHER PROFITS'

    Consumer advocacy groups including AARP, the lobby group for older Americans, blasted the Senate's rejection. "Senators had a choice between meaningful savings for their constituents and higher profits for the drug industry. We'll be letting our members know where they stood," AARP's Nancy LeaMond said.


    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1514657120091216


    Washington has its share of murder mysteries, but the one that interests Sen. Byron Dorgan involves the untimely death of his amendment to allow cheaper prescription drug imports from Canada.

    There are several sets of fingerprints in the Senate chamber where the legislation died, including some from the White House, says Dorgan, a North Dakota Democrat. ?They did not support this,? and worked with Democratic Senate leaders to kill it in order to move the larger bill forward, he said in an interview. The amendment failed in the Senate Tuesday evening.

    ?It?s ironic that President [Barack] Obama campaigned for drug importation during the election,? said Dorgan, noting that Obama?s chief of staff Rahm Emanuel, pushed it hard as an Illinois congressman. Dorgan said he can?t get answers from the administration about what?s going on, though he called the White House and FDA prior to the vote.

    Last week, he said he heard rumors that the FDA was going to send a letter objecting to drug importation on safety grounds, which he has said is a bogus reason. He said he called FDA Commissioner Margaret Hamburg, who said she knew nothing about such a letter.

    He said his timeline shows that a letter, signed by Hamburg questioning the safety of drug imports, was sent 24 hours later to a few senators who opposed importation. That piece of paper became a rallying cry for other senators who voted down Dorgan?s amendment.

    ?I think the letter was prompted, probably drafted somewhere else,? like ?the White House? Dorgan said.

    The White House has not responded to repeated calls and emails. The FDA did not immediately comment.

    This summer, the drug makers and their lobby, PhRMA, made a highly publicized deal that they would help the government and seniors save $80 billion in drug costs, and they in turn would support the president?s health care overhaul campaign.

    But numerous industry and congressional sources said there was also a private agreement between the pharmaceutical industry and White House that the administration would not support importation of drugs in the health care bill.

    The White House and PhRMA told The Wall Street Journal there was no quid pro quo. The story prompted one of Dorgan?s calls to the White House, which, he says, denied there was any such private deal.

    ?Now, I say ?Huh?? he said. ?I better keep my thoughts to myself for now,? he added.

    Dorgan said he will revive the importation measure next year.

    http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2009/1...-drug-imports/
    Last edited by Darth Red; January 03, 2011 at 09:34 AM. Reason: spoiler

  20. #20

    Default Re: Health insurance - a right?

    Temptation to use more than one contributes? So you are suggesting what, that in countries with comprehensive public health care people deliberately become sick and injured in order to 'get their money's worth?' That people stay in hospital, lonely, bored, eating terrible food and surrounded by human misery because they are jealous of the silly fools who leave hospital as soon as possible to try and get back to normalcy? I think you are a clod.

    By the way, the country that spends the most, per capita, on health care, is not a country with a universal system. It's America. And not by a small margin. Even government expenditure on health care is higher than in many countries with much more generous public systems (only Iceland and Germany spend more public money per capita). Someone isn't getting their money's worth, can you guess who it is?

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