Carthage...

[vindafarna]

Dear Peeps,

This is an old, *old* topic, but it figures as an old topic which was never resolved.
It's the fantasy (yes, fantasy) which is the Carthaginian pikeman; who never existed - flat out statement, he never existed.
Sez who? Sez me.
I'd like to see one (read it, the number cited is ONE, singular) reference other than the incompetences of Peter Connoly which justifies the creation of such a trooptype. And I do not mean a justification which might be summarised as "oh, alright, you want some proof? Try JRA (I think) volume 13 (I think)."
No author, no title; has anyome here seen the sheer size of the average JRA volume?
Basic premise: there is no (as in zero) basis for giving the Carthaginian army a pike-armed soldier of any description whatsoever. Someone -anyone- indicate where I may be wrong on this point...


Love'nKisses

Vindafarna

[Curtis13]

I think you're right you know. I don't think Carthage did have pikement, but I could give to sources as evidence.

[Marcus Scaurus]

Libyans provided the steadiest and most disciplined element in most armies. Their close formation infantry were equipped with long spears and round or oval shields, and wore helmets and probably linen cuirasses.

Adrian Goldsworthy, Fall of Carthage, page 32

[vindafarna]

That is not a source, it's an opinion: an uninformed opinion, devoid of any form of justification. Cite one - yes, read it, that's ONE, not two, not several, the word used was ONE_ instance of any primary source (literary, epigraphic, whatever) which suggests that the pike was used by the Carrthagininas...

permit me to do a spot of smugging, because I so far as I know, there's no such reference

Love'n'Kisses

V

[Urnamma]

Well, how about Xanthippos, for one. He 'organized the carthaginian phalanx into groups of 4000'. Now, taking 4,000 to mean 4,096 (the Macedonian pike group). Then, of course, you have the Carthaginian phalanx being deployed using tactics that would have been worthless when considering the older spear length and tactical organization. Oh, and the fact that more than one record of Baal's temple mentions about 100,000 pikes in the armory (another record has 200,000). They didn't use them, of course, that's fantasy. After all, they didn't fight Pyrrhos, they didn't get reorganized by Xanthippos (a pike tactician himself and a great admirer of Pyrrhos and Alexander by all indication). Connolly, a respected historian, is loony of course. Vindafarna is much more accredited. You know, what with being an expert on Ancient history and all.

Of course, the use of the phalanx during the Mammertine War can't be used as evidence either, seeing as how the spear length of the citizens was far greater than that of the libyan mercenaries. But, of course, this is all abstraction. And fantasy.

Next time you want to criticize, I would hope you're not going to be rude and cruel about it, then you might get a nice response.

[Urnamma]

They're not going to come out and say 'ok, these are pikemen fellas' When Polybius describes their organization, you compare it to other sources, make inferences, and fact check. Try reading history out of journals and or ancient sources. And once again, you don't have to be rude. It isn't going to get a thoughtful reply.

[Urnamma]

And if you noticed, I did give you -one-. The account records of the temple armory in Gadir had spears listed (presumably for armament of troops in carthage proper as well) with a length of about 17 feet.

[vindafarna]

Dear U,

Noop, there was never any such reference.
Provide any such reference and I'll go seek it out; this is an observation made not only by me, but several individuals...,and there has been nothing of the kind supplied.

So, quit the unsupported assertion and cite the reference...


Love'n'Kisses

V

[Urnamma]

Well, you know, since you continue to remain insolent in tone, you get nothing. If I'm not insulted, I tend to respond to criticism better.

[vindafarna]

Dear U,

Insulting? No, possibly I'm overconfident.
However, this changes nothing.
Can you provide any *semblance* of a reference?

Love'n'Kisses

V

[vindafarna]

Dear U,

That's a reference as in author +journal. I can prolly find the page for myself, and if it exists, I'll come back and abase myself big-time.You ain't seen nothing until you've seen me grovel...


Love'n'Kisses

V

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Well, you did sign up just to post here about this and with your second post you say his is an uninformed opinion and then call his response an unsupported assertion, devoid of any source. That sounds a little insulting to me.

What are you doing here anyway? Have you played EB's open beta yet? This is an EB forum you know. Or are you just here to stir up crap you're too afraid to try with your regular login name (you do say this is an old debate that wasn't resolved)?

[VandalCarthage]

Vinda, is courtesy really so foreign to you? Society evolved etiquette for just this sort of situation.

[swabian]

etiquettes? lol

i can't see any sings of rudeness or something. rediculous.

THE POINT IS: is this mentioned source unambigously describing a PIKE and not a type of longer spear? were the respective weapons definately designated by xanthippos as 'sarissoi'?

[vindafarna]

Dear Chaps,

The matter of the Punic sarissa? It's an itch I felt the need to scratch, nothing more; this thread is my first; I have never posted here before, although I realised that what I was doing was revisiting an old controversy.
And my point remains: what is the source, primary or secondary, for the allocation of pikes to the carthaginians? I could cite any number of counter-arguments (so long as I omitted to provide any references which could be checked)
Question is, where's the reference? As indicated, if any such is provided I'll eat so much crow the black feathers will prolly clog the board.


Love'n'Kisses

V

[PyrrhusIV]

Vindafarna is much more accredited. You know, what with being an expert on Ancient history and all.

She does hold a doctorate degree...pfft, and you accuse her of rudeness . I've worked with her before, and I must say I agree with her. A greek Hoplites spear could be 12 feet in length, although it was normally 9. 3 extra feet could classify it as long.

[vindafarna]

Dear U,

Please indicate where I did this...

"If someone started an argument by calling you an *******"


My qualifications are incidental to the basic question, which could be asked by anyone, and which is...

What are the sources which can be held to justify the allocation of the pike to the Carthaginians? To this I might add, what is the justification for providing the Carthaginians with armoured horses?

Love'n'Kisses

V

[Urnamma]

Xanthippos' personal writings do not survive. However, descriptions do. As I said, there is plenty of evidence, but I do expect a little tact. If someone started an argument by calling you an *******, then tried to argue rationally, you probably wouldn't be that inclined to begin a nice chat, eh?

[Seleukos]

I know vindafarna. She helped out RTR for a while. She says she is a historian. But one could not know for sure as I have never talked to her personally. She knows eastern civs best if I am not mistaken.

[Urnamma]

So does Connolly, on the Ph.D. thing. Christ, so did the commander of Einsatzgruppe A. What's your point? 17' is notation for 17 feet, in case you didn't know. I refer you to King's discussion of the length of Alexander's Sarissa (about sixteen feet).