Hoplites: weak on the front!

[a156]

First of all, congratulations for this mod, it is epic, nothing more or less! I am new in this and, although this effort is epic, I have spotted an “error” (in my opinion). First the good news: Hoplites are now having shorter spears (correct) and they are no longer a “shorter” version of the Macedonian phalanx. Furthermore, when guard mode is disabled, they push forward. When I saw these parameters I got thrilled! Then I tested those abilities on the field against Germans naked fanatics, same league as the hoplites. I thought that as long as hoplites weren’t overflaked, naked fanatics had no chance in a front line assault. But they had! The casualties were more for the hoplites and, to save the day, I tried to disable the guard mode to make them push forward. They did, but pushing had no effect against their rivals. Then I checked hoplites parameters and I think I found the “error”: Shield = 4 which is very low. Hoplon (the shield that hoplites had in use) was heavy and not good for man to man fight (so it reduces defensive skill) but it was ideal for heavy formations. I think that increasing the value of the shield will restore the hoplite ability to smash any lighter troops in front of them.

[Nano_Magnus]

I think that Naked Fanatics are elite warriors and Hoplites not, you could try armoured hoplites or betther units.

For me it's ok if Naked Fanatics (especially Germans) crush hoplites, but it's just my opinion

[saienga]

The mod is built around a Roman experience. The Germans (and the greeks) are built with a view toward their performance against a human controlled Roman army. I doubt Lt was looking to balance the Germans against the Greeks.

In game, the Germans are to be feared, and it's almost suicidal to take them on with a pre-marian legion. Ergo, the balance is correct for the intended game play.

The other factions are only playable for and giggles.

[lt1956]

Try Armoured Hoplites against the Naked Fanatics. see what happens, also the Spartans. You will see a different, A person cannot perfectly balance every soldier right the engine on RTW will not allow for that. What we can do is class and Rock paper effect. you need to use stronger hoplites against the fanatics. Another test is take Warband against the Hoplites and see the effects.

You used the wrong comparisions. Shield changes wouldnt change as much as you think, though I wished it would, there are other settings and then this effects how the AI uses them.

[a156]

I don’t want to compare hoplite strength against other units. I just want to see if having them in formation (phalanx à guard mode) gives them any advantage. I noticed that they are not getting tired and they can start pushing as long as their rivals are exhausted, that was the only advantage. In order to make their shield wall more tiding, I placed one hoplite unit into another (twice namber of men in exactly the same area) so I managed to win a battle (equal numbers against naked fanatics) but is this the right way? I also noticed that the second line in the formation can not use their spears although the enemy is close and front line has no swords (except Spartans). Maybe if you gave them a little bit of more range in their attack… I really don’t now how it works, I just telling my silly thoughts. Hoplite Phalanx was different from Macedonian Phalanx in many ways but they had something in common: all strength at front, nothing in the flanks or rear, that’s what I expect to see.
Again many thanks for the professional job, all these are tiny little things compared to this epic work you made.

[lt1956]

You seem to not be familar with RTW in general or you would know how the Engine plays out in Vanilla. Enjoy your game.

[a156]

I am not but I tried this:

formation .75, 1, 2, 2, 7,square, phalanx
stat_health 2, 0
stat_pri 12,12, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0, 0.7
stat_pri_attr spear, short_pike
stat_sec 0,0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25, 1

Not so cool in the animation but the spear remains in the right length and the fight now is more realistic.

[lt1956]

Not really, All you did was give them the phalanx formation, and if you did KNOW what that did its the same as having Guard mode on, also it doesnt use the overhand animation. IF you want Vanilla stuff there are many mods besides mine to play....