Consulate of Septimus and Balbinus - 538 A.U.C

[War lord]

You are a fool if you think I or anyone else in this senate will let you repeat the mistakes that led to the mess we have spent the last year cleaning up!We are still at war with Carthage,they still have a foothold in Liguria,it is possible we will soon be at war with Syracuse and Hispania and Epirus are near completely unguarded,and you want to leave us with one Legion?And even assuming that we could somehow manage with half our current forces,what is your fellow Counsel supposed to command?

As for an invasion of the north,have you considered that that action would open even more fronts that we do not have the manpower to control?If anything we need more Legions not less!

[M D]

The consul turned to senator gracchus, intending to adress his statement


Senator Gracchus, you make a bold statement. While our soldiers should be rewarded, yes, i see no reason to divide Patrician land. If we are to give them land for their services, they should be given lands in newly conquered provinces. A roman presence will aid in the assimilation of the area, as well as adding to the treasury through higher populations...as given the attitudes of many, there will not be much of a population after the Legions parade through!

"Is it not just that what belongs to the people should be shared by the people? Is a man with no capacity for fighting more useful to his country than a soldier? Is a citizen inferior to a slave? Is an alien, or one who owns some of his country’s soil, the best patriot? You have won by war most of your possessions, and hope to acquire the rest of the habitable globe. But now it is but a hazard whether you gain the rest by bravery or whether by your weakness and discords you are robbed of what you have by your foes. Wherefore, in prospect of such acquisitions, you should if need be spontaneously, and of your own free will, yield up these lands to those who will rear children for the service of the State. Do not sacrifice a great thing while striving for a small, especially as you are to receive no contemptible compensation for your expenditure on the land, in free ownership of five hundred jugera secure forever, and in case you have sons, of two hundred and fifty more for each of them."

[AspisPhalanx90]

And if we dont move north what then? Carthage gains more allies in the north every day we wait! Caldus, what do you think we should do? allow the Gauls to come marching through Italy once again?! I would have thought, Senator, that you would have supported a motion that could ensure the safety of yourself and fellow Roman. Have you no faith in this Senate? Are you to let the actions of one Consul dictate the policy of this Republic? By doing that Senator, you are simply becoming a slave to the pages of history. Open up more fronts you say? Like it or not, eventually the hostile Averni will be marching through the Alps...Liguria I fully intend on bringing into the Republic, but if we do not secure the passes to the Alps, the Averni, Boii, even the rumored Germanic tribes may soon reach Italia.

The Consul sat down, infuriated by the Senatores comments...accusing him of being a fool...ridiculous. Unfortunately, he was no longer able to address Senator Gracchus.

[War lord]

The Gauls are not an immediate threat,the Carthaginians and the Macedonians are.Deal with our current foes Consul, and then think about the Gauls.

[M D]

Gracchus began to speak loudly,

"The ruling class of Rome clearly cares so little for the common person. I will go to the Forum forthwith, and I am sure, senators.. I am sure this will be the end of you hold on the people's land!"

He got up, bowed to the Consul and left

[Nota']

Why must we defend our holding in greece? It is just a waste of resources, defending it will take far more money than the province can generate.
I say abandon our greek province, consolodate our holdings in spain then take northern Italy to put some distance between the babarians and the city of Rome.

[AspisPhalanx90]

So we should ignore those with an immediate land border with northern Italy? The Carthaginians are busy in Spain. The Macedonians can only strike one colony. If we do not begin moving north, our soldiers in Spain will have only the sea to get back to Italy. We have the manpower...let us raise a Legion and march north. The area is wealthy...we shall gain much from northward expansion, and trade will flourish.

[War lord]

The Carthaginians are not busy in Hispania,they are fighting US in Hispania,a battle that we MUST win if Carthage is to be defeated.When Carthage is defeated THEN you can think about starting another war,as it stands we cannot attack the Boii and hold on to the provinces.

Your lust for glory will be the death of us, Septimus.

[AspisPhalanx90]

Yes, busy with US. I have never once said to ignore Hispania or any of our provinces. However, it seems to me that it is foolish to think that we shall be able to destroy each and every enemy one at a time. We can focus on Carthage, yes...but while we're devoting our resources there, what about Greece? What about our northern frontiers? I do not think this matter is as simple as you seem to think it is Caldus.

I shall be leaving for Hispania, unless of course the Senate wishes me to assume my command elsewhere. But before i leave, i ask the Senate to offer some input!

Caldus, i respect your opinions, even if i do not agree with them. However it seems that the Curia is exceptionally quiet lately....

[chaplain118]

If I may offer my words for the consul, and for some of our more ambitious members.

Scaurus stood and swept the halls with his eyes.

Dealing with Hispania will be next to impossible, given our current situation there. We have almost no means of raising any troops save for hiring local mercenaries due to the politico-economic status of the frontiers being still in limb (ooc: still under construction) and no consensus amongst the people have been reached. Though I would ask that the consul deliver note of instructing the governor to offer the status of an allied or client state to those regions as means of further pacification but also troop levying. Emporiae in particular, as it had recently felt the bite of Roman steel and news of our defeat of the Capuan forces must've also reached Hispanian shores.

As for Gracchus' insane proposal, might I suggest a compromise?

If Senator Gracchus is so intent on giving the soldiers land to settle upon, why does he not give them his personal land? Why does he insist on robbing the patricians of the land that we have bled for? And why does he insist upon dividing land to be settled upon for disbanded legions when the war with Carthage, the war against Crotona, the war brewing in the East, and the war raging in the North still loom large above us? What, I wonder, is Senator Gracchus' aim here. Why, why, Conscript Fathers, is he arguing for the parceling of land, for the disbanding of legions, for the destruction of our social order when we still face a war? Is he so overconfident in his abilities to end the wars abroad that he feels it necessary to foment dissent at home? Is he so arrogant in matters of war that even after we saw a costly defeat at the hands of Hannibal that he would recommend the legions be disbanded while the Punics are still roaming about Italy?

What, then, is Senator Gracchus' aim?

Is he a champion of the Plebs like he so boldly claims, or is he a mere demagogue, knowing that were he to put this before the people, they would riot over it? And if the people riot now while we are beleaguered with enemies, might that not lead to a true civil war? Then, can it not be argued that Gracchus himself is attempting to foment rebellion and revolt after we had just barely put down the revolt in Capua?

Which brings us to a more serious question: was Gracchus responsible for the revolt in Capua? Did he incite the city to rebellion as a testing ground to see if his tactics might work here in Rome? And if he was, why must he still parade within this Senate House, masquerading as a noble Roman when he is naught but a man lusting after kingship!

How long, Gracchus, will you continue to abuse our patience? How long will this madness of yours to mock us? How long will your unbridled audacity be hurled in our faces? What? Do you believe that we have not seen the gleam of ambition within your eyes? What, do you take us to be fools? You argue that the soldiers are landless, yet we exclude the landless from enlistment! You argue that the patricians hold on to the people's land, yet you yourself hold enough landed property to be considered a senator! You argue that the aristocracy cares naught for the people's welfare, then why was it that the aristocracy proposed for the allied infantry to engage the rebels of Crotona?

What? Are the wars over? Will you demand the legions be disbanded when enemies still threaten Rome? What? Will you promise land to men who may die in battle soon? Are you secretly filling Italy with your men of your choosing so that when the time comes, you may raise your personal forces to march on Rome? What? Did I as consul not return to Rome at the behest of the Senate, amongst whispers of my own ambitions? Did I not return to prove to both the Senate and People of Rome that I still uphold the Republic, her laws, and her customs? Things that you are so eager to tear down? And for what purpose, I wonder? For what aims? What are you constructing in the dark that we cannot see? What are you planning behind your closed doors of your home?

Answer us these, Gracchus, lest the gods set in motion events beyond mortal comprehension.

[dragoon47]

Lucius stood as the Curia stood in an awkward silence until Gracchus' return.

We cannot attack anything except for Northern Italy. We must fight for Genoa and take it. Until we do that, the Carthaginian navy still continues to have enough free roam that they can land supplies in the port and troops to reinforce the garrison. If we do not act on Northern Italy first, we may be facing another Northern invasion, perhaps the Boii would even be willing to land a blow against us as well as individual tribes.

We have gone through an invasion and a rebellion with very little cost in relation to what could have been but...we cannot stand up to another invasion in the North, let alone have to worry about some ambitious Greek in Sicily. If he attacks, he attacks or has our doctrine changed from defensive warfare in the last few years? Rome honors their allegiances, only our allies can betray us.

Our holdings in Greece must be held. News spreads slowly in that region and its instability makes it even slower. As long as we can feign strength in the province we will be ignored relative to other neighbors. The money put into this position, although spent in a rather haphazard manner as of late, is worth it for the strategic position of not having to land troops on a hostile shore with provisions already prepared for the arrival of new legions.

In Hispania, my statements in the past still stand. Northern Iberia is useless to us. We can always retake it and it serves no purpose as a recruitment center, tax center or reinforcement point. Therefore I propose this motion.

I. The victorious consular army in Italy be turned North to demonstrate to our neighbors what happens to the various factions that invade our homeland by retaking Genoa.

II. Once Genoa is taken, the legions in Iberia will be reinforced in Sugunton. The rest of the army that is deemed not to be needed or by honorary discretion will be stationed in the Campus Martius so they may visit their families until they are needed again.

III. This second Consular Army will then strike deep into Carthaginian territory and secure the mines and a route to export the metals by sea to further increase what little trade we have within our holdings and deprive the Carthaginians of the main resource by which they can equip their heaviest troops.

[War lord]

Support.

[dacder]

(hoping they wouldnt pay to much attention to his mask and full body suit that was quite untraditional of a roman he spoke)
"People may you kindly inform of the situation and give me and map of the empire?On a related note I think the abandonment of northern italy is absurd....They have always been good roman citizens and now are we to abandon them in there time of need?Could anything be more unjust or more cowardly?I wish to ask yourselves what would our forefathers do? did they give up good roman land when pyrrus defeated them?No they did not!Did they give up everything roman after hannibal destroyed our legions?No they did not!So then if you wish to make our ancestors disgraced at what rome has become then abandon northern italy.But if you wish to keep your respect of good Romans then you shall fight to the bitter end to preserve all that is roman!!!!"
(he slumped down exausted from his speech and hoped it would have effect on the senate)

[Rex Basiliscus]

Senator Lucius, what about the rebels in Crotona? Shall we just forget about them and let them regain their strength? As I have said before, I would gladly finish them off, but I do not have time for endless debates, for I have to go to Sicily today.

Basiliscus turned to senator Scaurus.

I agree with you. Senator Gracchus is being far too zealous in his propositions. The fact is, we cannot disband any of our troops, because we are at war. To divide the land in Italy is just foolish. The Patricians would never agree to that and we would have a social-civil war on our doorsteps. We cannot have that.
Therefore I propose we give the veterans, once they finish their service, lands in our newly conquered regions - be they in Cisalpine Gaul or Hispania. Both would benefit us tremendously. Cisalpine Gaul is a very fertile land and Hispania is rich with iron, copper, lead, tin, gold and silver.
Not only that, but settling our veterans in those provinces would speed up the romanisation of them.

As for senator Gracchus he is trying to amas to much support of the Plebs around him. If he continues to do so, one could expect he would use that. And we must prevent an abuse of our fellow Romans for one senator's ambitions...

[M D]

If I may offer my words for the consul, and for some of our more ambitious members.

Scaurus stood and swept the halls with his eyes.

Dealing with Hispania will be next to impossible, given our current situation there. We have almost no means of raising any troops save for hiring local mercenaries due to the politico-economic status of the frontiers being still in limb (ooc: still under construction) and no consensus amongst the people have been reached. Though I would ask that the consul deliver note of instructing the governor to offer the status of an allied or client state to those regions as means of further pacification but also troop levying. Emporiae in particular, as it had recently felt the bite of Roman steel and news of our defeat of the Capuan forces must've also reached Hispanian shores.

As for Gracchus' insane proposal, might I suggest a compromise?

If Senator Gracchus is so intent on giving the soldiers land to settle upon, why does he not give them his personal land? Why does he insist on robbing the patricians of the land that we have bled for? And why does he insist upon dividing land to be settled upon for disbanded legions when the war with Carthage, the war against Crotona, the war brewing in the East, and the war raging in the North still loom large above us? What, I wonder, is Senator Gracchus' aim here. Why, why, Conscript Fathers, is he arguing for the parceling of land, for the disbanding of legions, for the destruction of our social order when we still face a war? Is he so overconfident in his abilities to end the wars abroad that he feels it necessary to foment dissent at home? Is he so arrogant in matters of war that even after we saw a costly defeat at the hands of Hannibal that he would recommend the legions be disbanded while the Punics are still roaming about Italy?

What, then, is Senator Gracchus' aim?

Is he a champion of the Plebs like he so boldly claims, or is he a mere demagogue, knowing that were he to put this before the people, they would riot over it? And if the people riot now while we are beleaguered with enemies, might that not lead to a true civil war? Then, can it not be argued that Gracchus himself is attempting to foment rebellion and revolt after we had just barely put down the revolt in Capua?

Which brings us to a more serious question: was Gracchus responsible for the revolt in Capua? Did he incite the city to rebellion as a testing ground to see if his tactics might work here in Rome? And if he was, why must he still parade within this Senate House, masquerading as a noble Roman when he is naught but a man lusting after kingship!

How long, Gracchus, will you continue to abuse our patience? How long will this madness of yours to mock us? How long will your unbridled audacity be hurled in our faces? What? Do you believe that we have not seen the gleam of ambition within your eyes? What, do you take us to be fools? You argue that the soldiers are landless, yet we exclude the landless from enlistment! You argue that the patricians hold on to the people's land, yet you yourself hold enough landed property to be considered a senator! You argue that the aristocracy cares naught for the people's welfare, then why was it that the aristocracy proposed for the allied infantry to engage the rebels of Crotona?

What? Are the wars over? Will you demand the legions be disbanded when enemies still threaten Rome? What? Will you promise land to men who may die in battle soon? Are you secretly filling Italy with your men of your choosing so that when the time comes, you may raise your personal forces to march on Rome? What? Did I as consul not return to Rome at the behest of the Senate, amongst whispers of my own ambitions? Did I not return to prove to both the Senate and People of Rome that I still uphold the Republic, her laws, and her customs? Things that you are so eager to tear down? And for what purpose, I wonder? For what aims? What are you constructing in the dark that we cannot see? What are you planning behind your closed doors of your home?

Answer us these, Gracchus, lest the gods set in motion events beyond mortal comprehension.

OOC: Want me to copy Cicero against Catiline too?




"I, senators shall stand for Tribune of the Plebs. The person of a tribune, I acknowledge, is sacred and inviolable, because he is consecrated to the people, and takes their interests under his protection. But when he deserts those interests, and becomes an oppressor of the people; when he retrenches their privileges, and takes away their liberty of voting; by those acts he deprives himself, for he no longer keeps to the intention of his employment. Otherwise, if a tribune should demolish the Capitol, and burn the docks and naval stores, his person could not be touched. A man who should do such things as those, might still be a tribune, though a vile one; but he who diminishes the privileges of the people, ceases to be a tribune of the people.
Does it not shock you to think that a tribune should be able to imprison a consul, and the people not have it in their power to deprive a tribune of his authority, when he uses it against those who gave it? For the tribunes, as well as the consuls, are elected by the people. Kingly government seems to comprehend all authority in itself, and kings are consecrated with the most awful ceremonies; yet the citizens expelled Tarqin, when his administration became iniquitous, and, for the offense of one man, the ancient government, under whose auspices Rome was erected, was entirely abolished..
What is there in Rome so sacred and venerable as the Vestal Virgins who keep the perpetual fire? yet if any of them transgress the rules of her order, she is buried alive. For they who are guilty of impiety against the gods, lose that sacred character, which they had only for the sake of the gods. So a tribune who injures the people can be no longer sacred or inviolable on the people’s account. He destroys that power in which alone his strength lay. If it is just for him to be invested with the tribunal authority by a majority of tribes, is it not more just for him to be deposed by the suffrages of them all? What is more sacred and inviolable than the offerings in the temples of the gods? yet no one pretends to hinder the people from making use of them, or removing them, whenever they please. And, indeed, that the tribune’s office is not inviolable or unremovable, appears from hence, that several have voluntarily laid it down, or been discharged at their own request."

[Roxas]

Lucius stood as the Curia stood in an awkward silence until Gracchus' return.

We cannot attack anything except for Northern Italy. We must fight for Genoa and take it. Until we do that, the Carthaginian navy still continues to have enough free roam that they can land supplies in the port and troops to reinforce the garrison. If we do not act on Northern Italy first, we may be facing another Northern invasion, perhaps the Boii would even be willing to land a blow against us as well as individual tribes.

We have gone through an invasion and a rebellion with very little cost in relation to what could have been but...we cannot stand up to another invasion in the North, let alone have to worry about some ambitious Greek in Sicily. If he attacks, he attacks or has our doctrine changed from defensive warfare in the last few years? Rome honors their allegiances, only our allies can betray us.

Our holdings in Greece must be held. News spreads slowly in that region and its instability makes it even slower. As long as we can feign strength in the province we will be ignored relative to other neighbors. The money put into this position, although spent in a rather haphazard manner as of late, is worth it for the strategic position of not having to land troops on a hostile shore with provisions already prepared for the arrival of new legions.

In Hispania, my statements in the past still stand. Northern Iberia is useless to us. We can always retake it and it serves no purpose as a recruitment center, tax center or reinforcement point. Therefore I propose this motion.

Rather infuriated by the lack of Decorum displayed by his fellow colleagues, the newly appointed Consul rose and looked towards the only one who was focussing on the priorities.

"Such a wise stratagem, I for one agree with these and If my Consular colleague agrees then It should be put to vote; we waste too much time bickering when it is the time to act."

[chaplain118]

At last, Gracchus, you have ceased your twisted words and have chosen to display your intentions in the light of the public: you wish for kingship, no matter how thinly disguised as a tribunate. You argue for the disbanding of legions before the wars are at an end, you raise the notion of a consul imprisoned by a tribune, and you disguise it as acting on behalf of the people.

An aspiring king amongst us, Senators, and he is still allowed to roam free within these hallowed halls and the sacred boundaries of our city.

[M D]

Senators.. Senators.. It is clearly Senator Scaurus who is after the Kingship, he argues for everything and nothing less, the REMOVAL OF THE TRIBUNATE! It is clear, that he has descended to almost being a Criminal through his actions against the people..Criminal negligence, Roman Senators, has not summoned Scaurus into a crisis of his life and citizenship which he deserves, neither has jealousy inspired by his life nor any lasting, just, and grievous enmity. Rather, that the most important support for the majesty of our empire handed down to us by our ancestors be abolished from the Republic, and that henceforth the influence of the senate, the consul's civilian authority, and the meeting of the minds of good men be utterly powerless against the pernicious plague upon the citizen body, for these aims and purposes and toward overturning these institutions, have one man's wishes for the good of the people come under assault.Accordingly, if it is the mark of a good consul, when he sees all the supports of the Republic being undermined and wrest asunder, to bring help to the fatherland, to succor the common health and fortunes, to invoke the integrity of citizens, and to consider his own survival of less importance than the common survival, it is as well the mark of good and brave citizens, men like you who have emerged in every crisis facing the Republic, to cut off all avenues for sedition, to fortify the bulwarks of the Republic, to reckon that the supreme command resides in the consuls, the utmost deliberation in the senate, and to judge that man who has followed their leadership worthy of penalties and capital punishment. Accordingly, the task of defending this Empire is primarily this senates, but the ardor for preserving the man ought to be ours, yours and.. And.. The people in common."

[AspisPhalanx90]

I agree with my esteemed colleague. This has gone on far too long. I propose our first course of action is to send a Consular Legion north, after crushing the remaining rebels. I also request that the governor of Sicilia raise an ample garrison in case our Greek allies decide to betray us. Nothing large, but enough to keep them at bay for a time. Genoa must fall.

1) With the Senate's permission, i ask for Senator Basiliscus to finish off the Rebel garrison at Crotona. After which, he shall transfer the legion over to Consular authority, and depart for his Governorship

2) following this, either myself or my esteemed colleague, depending on the wishes of this senate, shall take the army, refit, and move north.

This is, in my opinion senatores, the only obvious task. However, we are at an impass. Do we reinforce hispania, or greece? This i believe is a matter for the Senate to discuss.

[Nota']

*Senator Geminius stands to address the entire senate*
"I say instead of refitting the legion after the disposal of the southern rebellion we disband the legion and raise a new one. This will release the soldiers have fought so hard for the republic to go home. Why does the senate insist on asking so much more of men who have given so much already?!
The senate knows my opinion on our greek province, however I fail to understand why you are so obsessed in keeping it. It will only burden the republic's treasury for nothing! For this reason I suggest we reinforce Hispania, and not greece."