"Valhalla" The Hotseat Community Tavern

[grouchy13]

The main immigrent groups in the UK are not only like Goro says Islamic but also Eastern Europe, the whole immigration issue here in the UK really took off with the EU labour laws allowing people from Member states to move for Economic reasons to other EU nations without the requirement of a visa.
If my history is correct nations such as Poland and other Eastern Europeon nations that have took advantage of the free movement labour laws to move to the UK have never suffered under the colonial yoke, or at least under countries that you highlight in taking advantage of Africa and Asia.
Therefore you theory on immigration being a by product on colonialism is completly wrong and has no basis on either the British Empire or any of the other Colonial Powers,
If anything the massive numbers of immigrents from these Eastern European countries have been mobilzed due to the failed policies of their former Communist regimes,
while you have criticised the Capitalist system it's clear the Communist alternative is completly redundent or why would so many people from these former Communist zones seek to find employment in the UK?

[Tonno]

oo we are taking this to the coms and caps lvl...

Well bad capitalization in countrys of former communist regimes has lead to that what u said...cuz all of the smart ppl used the time when everything was going to hell in thoes countrys and buyed what was worth and after the fall of communists they sold everything,or just destroyed it in any way...
So yea I blame fast capitalization that was forced by Europ...

That is way u got immigrants from Eastern Europ...

[The Saint]

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

[Vasilefs]

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

Ill try to explain since both Tonno and me are from "Yugoslavia" now Serbia and Croatia.
After fall of Communism in eastern europe entire industries of those countries was state owned.Than western capital entered into eastern markets and bought every sector of industry in those countries ,massive unemployed followed (since huge number of formerly employed now under new "western capitalist" bosses become unemployed),this lead to massive migration toward west in hope of finding new jobs.
At start of this process all sides started to feel benefit from it,western capitalist got new workers who were ready to work for much smaller wages,while those immigrants got jobs and chance to live in better conditions than in their former communists countries.
It worked very well until unemployment become major problem for western countries,in that situation peoples in west are not happy because they cant find jobs(immigrants now work in their places)

[Tonno]

example

When Yugoslavia fell my ppl,as every other nation that was comunist before...had to sell,everything that was owned by country (guverment) to some ppl (example: INA our oil company had to share the stocks to the ppl and,sell some to private rich guy or some other oil company) and that was forced by Europe...
So what happend...rich capitalist comed to new lands and buyed everything for cheep prices...and after everything was set,countrys started their productions run their economy...all of that was sold by thoes rich ppl or it was turned ito something else (example: shut down shipyards to make hotles...or just sell everything for x10 the price that was bought)...

Of course there is guvernment fault in that as well...but everything was going so fast,and every new country could not handle that...
And that is whay u have imigrants form Eastern Europ...

[Tonno]

much better said by Vasilefs...

thx...

[The Saint]

Ill try to explain since both Tonno and me are from "Yugoslavia" now Serbia and Croatia.
After fall of Communism in eastern europe entire industries of those countries was state owned.Than western capital entered into eastern markets and bought every sector of industry in those countries ,massive unemployed followed (since huge number of formerly employed now under new "western capitalist" bosses become unemployed),this lead to massive migration toward west in hope of finding new jobs.
At start of this process all sides started to feel benefit from it,western capitalist got new workers who were ready to work for much smaller wages,while those immigrants got jobs and chance to live in better conditions than in their former communists countries.
It worked very well until unemployment become major problem for western countries,in that situation peoples in west are not happy because they cant find jobs(immigrants now work in their places)

But if there was unemployment after the take-over of these industries, surely it was because there were too many workers, compared to the amount of work needed?
In that case, it should have been up to the government to find ways to create new jobs.

Or am I going about this the wrong way?

[grouchy13]

oo we are taking this to the coms and caps lvl...

Well bad capitalization in countrys of former communist regimes has lead to that what u said...cuz all of the smart ppl used the time when everything was going to hell in thoes countrys and buyed what was worth and after the fall of communists they sold everything,or just destroyed it in any way...
So yea I blame fast capitalization that was forced by Europ...

That is way u got immigrants from Eastern Europ...

So not because of Colonialism as you highlighted before then?
While you change the angle of your argument I'll highlight waht I think are other underlining flaws in this argument you present,
The "Bad Capitalization" thats has occured in the former Soviet bloc was neither forced on the populations by either Europe or any other Capitlalist Nations,
The people when overthrowing the highly unpopular Soviet puppet regimes democratically elected the governments that superceded the Communist regimes installed by Moscow.
That these governments looked to adopt an capitalist economic model over continuing along socialist Communist lines says alot, to say that Europe forced Bad or fast Capitalism on the former Warsaw Pact countries is ridiculous, they voted it was there own choice.
I'm pretty sure that in most Eastern European Countries there are still Communist Parties, most of these countries especially the Baltic states have democratic elections no?, if they found Capitalism so bad, surely the Communist parties were return victorious to power and they would abandon the Capitalist model.
Like we mentioned that not all former countries swithin the British Empire adapted well in the post Colonial Era simarly not all former Communist Countries have adapted well to the introduction of the Capitalist Model, once again this has much to do with the internal politics of the individual nation and the character of the nation.
I believe that many Economic Migrants are driven by what I would call "financial realism", if the average wage for carrying out menial labour in Poland for example is 1000 Zloty (Around £200-£250) compared to the UK wage of 4000 Zloty (£1000 a Month) it's no surprise theb that many of the former Warsaw Pact countries find large proportions of their work forces moving abroad.
I have many Polish friends, one of my good friend married a Polish girl last year and most I have spoke to come to the UK for 3-4 years then return to Poland considerably better off, often being able to buy property outright, far from being "Bad Capitalism" I would say this is good Capitalism,
They bring money into their home economies increasing the GDP of their Home nation and in return the Employers in the UK are getting a highly motivated relaible workforce.
Far from being expoited I dare say the empolyment laws in the UK are some of the most favourable in the world in relation to the working hours, conditions and health and safety etc etc.
Many Communists still cling to an ideal of the world around in the 1920's o the bourgious and oppresed workers, the West and now parts of the East have seen massive improvements in living and working conditions a fact reinforced by longer life expentancies and Infant mortality rates.
Your opinion that somehow the West is playing a svengali role while the African and Asian peoples are oppresed and abused is baseless, If countries have bad governance it is by enlarge their own fault rolling out the excuse that it is somehow down to Evil Western Capitalism is an excuse best saved for the Mugabe's and Jong Il's of the world

[Vasilefs]

But if there was unemployment after the take-over of these industries, surely it was because there were too many workers, compared to the amount of work needed?
In that case, it should have been up to the government to find ways to create new jobs.

Or am I going about this the wrong way?

Well it is much more complicated!
In the process of privatization of state owned companies big problem become corruption of new government(they come to power with financial aid from west,Serbia is good example,new democratic government which came to power in 2000 after Slobodan Milosevic was overthrown was helped with huge sums of money directly from west).
When new government come to power they had to repay to its "western friends" and they done it by selling them state owned companies for very small sums of money,this lead to new problems,some companies who had huge number of employed were sold to westerners for small sums of money,and when new western bosses took company they put it into liquidation and workers become unemployed.
To matters be worse companies which they bought for small sums of money(for example 1000000 euros) had infrastructure which was worth at least 10 x more than money for which they paid,at this way new bosses sold infrastructure and made huge profit for it,only problem was to huge number of workers who become unemployed,they migrated to west in hope to find better life there.

Civil war in Yugoslavia (1991-1995) was financed from west,west was very interested for breakup of Yugoslavia because today countries which become independent(Croatia,Serbia,Slovenia,Macedonia and BiH) took huge loans to buy weapons and war materials from west and after war was over they took entire markets of those countries.Today all countries founded after fall of Yugoslavia are in huge debt and they took huge loans from western banks and all countries are in extremely huge debt.

[Tonno]

My nation has 4 milion ppl...and we have like 100 000 pensioners
So there can not be such thing us too many workers...

No offense...but I think some of u live in perfect world...
First of all Europa forces capitalization...that is one of the terms of entering in European Union for my country.(that is done,I hope so)...
Second, I think there are no Comis partys in the Europe anymore,I think there are only right-wing partys left,so I think u missed a point there...
Now yes Poland is one of thoes that has nice economy now (I was just watching a documentary about Poland a few days ago),that is way some of Europe countrys are trying to "make them gone"...(I do not want to open another topic)...but why,they had much beter privatization so they managed to hold some of the capital in their country,and they had no war,others did not managed to do that,as Vasilefs said...
Now to clear this out I support Capitalisam,so as my ppl (some of the older ones are still bit "old")...but the thing is that capitalisam has not brought us so much money and freedom,as it was spoken of, than the old system...Europe is trying to take our coasts and they already took our sources of drinking water,and small country can not compete with the great one...
Well we might have a chance if we had beter praim ministar,but he was a pupet for European leaders...

And to make this clear Colonial Era made africa poor...check damn museums,what will u find there I ask my self...especially in the UK...This is not main reson,but acept it,it is one of them...


I forgot a lot of things while writeing this down,but I do not give ...
some one will remaind me...

[Tonno]

It is so nicey when u have some smart guy on your side...
And if he kwnos proper english,well that is just 8...

[grouchy13]

Well it is much more complicated!
In the process of privatization of state owned companies big problem become corruption of new government(they come to power with financial aid from west,Serbia is good example,new democratic government which came to power in 2000 after Slobodan Milosevic was overthrown was helped with huge sums of money directly from west).
When new government come to power they had to repay to its "western friends" and they done it by selling them state owned companies for very small sums of money,this lead to new problems,some companies who had huge number of employed were sold to westerners for small sums of money,and when new western bosses took company they put it into liquidation and workers become unemployed.
To matters be worse companies which they bought for small sums of money(for example 1000000 euros) had infrastructure which was worth at least 10 x more than money for which they paid,at this way new bosses sold infrastructure and made huge profit for it,only problem was to huge number of workers who become unemployed,they migrated to west in hope to find better life there.

Civil war in Yugoslavia (1991-1995) was financed from west,west was very interested for breakup of Yugoslavia because today countries which become independent(Croatia,Serbia,Slovenia,Macedonia and BiH) took huge loans to buy weapons and war materials from west and after war was over they took entire markets of those countries.Today all countries founded after fall of Yugoslavia are in huge debt and they took huge loans from western banks and all countries are in extremely huge debt.

Please show some sources of this Western Involvement you speak, if it is as clear cut as you say they should be no shortage of infomation pertaining to Western Involvement.
I can say 100% that should a British Government have been involved in such subversive activities as colluding to create such a conflict it would be so politically expolsive their is no doubt that with the transparancy of Government within the UK this would not have seen the light of day.
I can tell you from a Western perspective the whole conflict in the Former Yugoslavia was seen with utter revultion, The savagery and intensity of the conflict would have made it very difficult if not impossible for any Western Government to have somehow behind the scenes orchastrate such a conflict with a view to economically benefit.
While Western backed companies may have benefitted in proxy from the devaluation of the Yugoslavian economy to move in after the war and buy things at a devalued price is a different story, that my friend is the dark side of economics wherever there is destruction and war you'll always have profiteers on the sidelines waiting to make a profit,
But to to imply this was some grand scheme carried out behind the scenes by Evil Western Capitalists smacks of some sort of victim complex or at least looking to blame someone for the depraditions that the Balkan states perpatrated out on each other.

[Tonno]

ooo...Are u from UK? (u do not have to answer this if u do not feel like)

UK is a historic ally of Serbia...soooooooooo I can not prove (in the strictest form of the word) u that there was no interference of west europian countrys in that war...
But,u need to make deeeep reaserch on that topic...

Dark economy,no...here is very sunny almost every day ...rich capitalist basters,yes...almost every day...

[grouchy13]

Yes I'm from the UK

[Vasilefs]

Please show some sources of this Western Involvement you speak, if it is as clear cut as you say they should be no shortage of infomation pertaining to Western Involvement.
I can say 100% that should a British Government have been involved in such subversive activities as colluding to create such a conflict it would be so politically expolsive their is no doubt that with the transparancy of Government within the UK this would not have seen the light of day.

Well you know very well that such Involvement is never official,(no offense) but Britain have always its fingers involved in everything what is happening in world.
Yugoslavia (and many other former Communist countries especially Soviet Union) would never collapse so quickly if there was no involvement from west(mainly Britain and USA),if there was no western involvement Yugoslav army would crush Slovenian and Croatian rebels very easily in 1991,but west quickly recognized Slovenia and Croatia as independent countries and this lead to start of biggest military conflict since world war II in europe.
But I have question for you,can you explain why NATO bombarded Yugoslavia(Serbia and Montenegro) in 1999,Britain played major role in starting such conflicts,I am not sure how well that war was covered in Britain and what do you know about it but I can say to you that many innocent civilians are killed(I can give you links of bombardment of bridge is Serbia during which Train was hit by bomb and many civilians are killed)

I can tell you from a Western perspective the whole conflict in the Former Yugoslavia was seen with utter revultion, The savagery and intensity of the conflict would have made it very difficult if not impossible for any Western Government to have somehow behind the scenes orchastrate such a conflict with a view to economically benefit.

Trust me reality is much different,you know all sides involved had to buy weapons somewhere,what do you think who sold weapons to them?

While Western backed companies may have benefitted in proxy from the devaluation of the Yugoslavian economy to move in after the war and buy things at a devalued price is a different story, that my friend is the dark side of economics wherever there is destruction and war you'll always have profiteers on the sidelines waiting to make a profit,
But to to imply this was some grand scheme carried out behind the scenes by Evil Western Capitalists smacks of some sort of victim complex or at least looking to blame someone for the depraditions that the Balkan states perpatrated out on each other.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Vasilefs]

UK is a historic ally of Serbia...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

De Gaulle himself stated famously, "France has no friends, only interests"

UK supported Serbia in 1914,Austro-Hungary,Bulgaria and Ottomans invaded Serbia in 1915 and what UK done to protect Serbia-Nothing

In 1941 when Serbian regent Prince Paul of Yugoslavia agreed to join axis British secret service organized major riot against Prince Paul on 27 march andmilitary coupin which Prince Paul was overthrown,result of those events was German Invasion of Yugoslavia and complete defeat of Yugoslavian forces,at the and of war in 1945 Yugoslavia had (after SSSR and Poland) most killed peoples

In 1939 UK(and France) supported Poland and promised to help them in case of German attack,when Germans attacked what UK done to protect Poland- Nothing
In 1938 what UK done to stop German invasion of Czecho-Slovakia-Nothing(in fact they supported Nazi Germany.

Who ever had assistance from UK he always gone into huge trouble

[goro]

how old were you when that war happened?

[Tonno]

Me...

and are we talking about war in Yugoslavia?

EDIT

Serbia was bomb 1999 cuz of constant war...they attacked Kosovo year before,and after several warnings,they keep attacking...so they got bombed...

In August 1995 Croatia got the same threat that they would be bombed if we do not stop operation Oluja,and get our asses from "Serbia"...

[goro]

i asked vasilefs but since you are from croatia you must have lived in the war i guess.i dont know much about that war

[Vasilefs]

how old were you when that war happened?

When war started in 1991 I was five year old,at the and of war in 1995 I was nine and i had to flee to Serbia(I am born in Lika,today it is part of Croatia,but back in 1986(and until 1995) it was majorly populated by Serbs,but at the and of war most of Serbs had to flee to Serbia)
Stupid war