Proposal seeking support for: The Tribune of the Plebs Bill

[Belisarius]

The Tribune of the Plebs Act

The Syntagma Curator can appoint a Tribune of the Plebs to act as the representative of the Plebs in the Curia. The Tribune of the Plebs role is to take complaints from Plebs to the curia; he also has the ability of taking a Plebs case to the Tribunal for review. The Tribune will also have to ensure a neutral stance; he will be awarded moderation powers over Consilium Publicum to ensure it’s kept in order without Magistrates having to act and in so doing looking bias.


Why?

-To Give the Plebs a voice, as much of a voice as possible.
-To allow Plebs to have a limited involvement if they are interested while keeping politics away from those who it doesn’t interest.
-To have a neutral Voice in the Curia and Consilium Publicum
-To Potentially aid forum stability

[Omnipotent-Q]

The Tribune of the Plebs Act

The Syntagma Curator can appoint a Tribune of the Plebs to act as the representative of the Plebs in the Curia. The Tribune of the Plebs role is to take complaints from Plebs to the curia; he also has the ability of taking a Plebs case to the Tribunal for review. The Tribune will also have to ensure a neutral stance; he will be awarded moderation powers over Consilium Publicum to ensure it’s kept in order without Magistrates having to act and in so doing looking bias.


Why?

-To Give the Plebs a voice, as much of a voice as possible.
-To allow Plebs to have a limited involvement if they are interested while keeping politics away from those who it doesn’t interest.
-To have a neutral Voice in the Curia and Consilium Publicum
-To Potentially aid forum stability

What's the point in that......I haven't heard of a case of any "plebs" wanting to voice their opinion in the Curia, and they can do it on the Feedback forum anyway.

This 'Tribune' will also not be neutral, but be out for themselves.....it is inevitable.

-To allow Plebs to have a limited involvement if they are interested while keeping politics away from those who it doesn’t interest.

They can carry on making good posts normally and be rewarded with that right on there own. They can then make the decision as a civitate on whether to get involved in Curia events or not.

[Søren]

The Tribune of the Plebs Act

The Syntagma Curator can appoint a Tribune of the Plebs to act as the representative of the Plebs in the Curia. The Tribune of the Plebs role is to take complaints from Plebs to the curia; he also has the ability of taking a Plebs case to the Tribunal for review. The Tribune will also have to ensure a neutral stance; he will be awarded moderation powers over Consilium Publicum to ensure it’s kept in order without Magistrates having to act and in so doing looking bias.


Why?

-To Give the Plebs a voice, as much of a voice as possible.
-To allow Plebs to have a limited involvement if they are interested while keeping politics away from those who it doesn’t interest.
-To have a neutral Voice in the Curia and Consilium Publicum
-To Potentially aid forum stability

The Syntagma Curator can appoint a Tribune of the Plebs to act as the representative of the Plebs in the Curia.

The Syntagma Curator is exactly that, the Syntagma Curator. I don't really envisiage giving him/her a larger role in other matters.

Edit : Scratch this part if by the "Syntagma Curator" you mean the Rep.Consul. The rest of my points still stand, though.

The Tribune of the Plebs role is to take complaints from Plebs to the curia; he also has the ability of taking a Plebs case to the Tribunal for review.

If the Curia wants to appoint an informal comittee to review complaints, then I guess that's your call. It wouldn't exactly be helpful. But it's better than having some Syntagma "champion of the plebs".

The Tribune will also have to ensure a neutral stance; he will be awarded moderation powers over Consilium Publicum to ensure it’s kept in order without Magistrates having to act and in so doing looking bias.

Only Senior Staff have and should have moderation powers there. Being in staff is pretty much a must for there, IMO, and I imagne most of my fellow staff would agree.

The Tribune will also have to ensure a neutral stance; he will be awarded moderation powers over Consilium Publicum to ensure it’s kept in order without Magistrates having to act and in so doing looking bias.

Come on. How is he going to be any less biased than staff. Incidentally, since when are staff adversly biased.

Try looking at it from the point of view of an ordinary member, coming here, occassionally, to discuss about RTW, or find something, who, after staying for a while, wants to complain about something. You may be sure that he dosn't give a damn whether the person he talks to is some "Praefecti Praetorio" or a "Tribune of the Plebians", in actual fact, the latter is a far more long winded approach.

Indeed, how could the Tribune possibly be expected to provide reasonable answers, considering that he doesn't have access to :

a) User Notes

b) Staff Forums

c) General Moderation controls

In short, I would say that it is both unecessary and deconstructive. I understand your reasoning (I remember proposing a ridiculous idea of involving the plebs once ) , but I can't really see how it would be anyting but a hinderance to smooth moderating/staffing.

P.S. About some of your last points, from what I last heard, ON does not want politics to be taken to the plebs, anyway.

[Valus]

I agree with what TBN said...
To me it seems that this change could make things even more complicated and harder to understand for the basic members, and for civitates as well, though it is a nice thought in theory..
The problem with democracy is that it is not always easy to implement for practical use..

[Lusted]

Unnecessary complication in my view, and the position would be liable to being abused.

[Belisarius]

Hmm, Im Just playing with Ideas here, I dont think such a person would be bias for either staff or anyone because The Curator Appoints him, he semi works for Plebs. Siding with one side and the other will remove him. This isnt a position where he will rally Plebs or anything, but, in the past Plebs have complained that they have no say, we always say that any ideas they have can be passed on to any civitates. What I'm proposing is Simply the ability to say, yes, if you have an idea go to the Tribune, a small link from Pleb to Curia, small enough not to bother ON or stir anything but large enough to say we at least consider the Plebs and have thought of their opionions.

Also, I've seen a few Fights about moderation, someone in the middle will prevent the Staff Vs member, and when a staff member closes a complaint thread another starts accusin said moderator of Bias. Its very irritating.

Think of this position as a small Complaints Department, when Plebs have a suggestion about the Curia, they go to one person, and now, if this passes they know who to go to.

Another advantage, if the Tribunal act proves Popular is the ability for the Tribune to appeal on behalf of the Pleb.

[Søren]

I wouldn't mind appointing a Praefecti to do that. (see smack)

I just don't think having someone outside staff to do so would be very constructive.

[Belisarius]

It doesnt say a Prefect cant be appointed. :wink: But it will be counterproductive against the Staff "Bias" people seem to love to bring up. I'd prefer it to be a non staff member, a Patrician or Senaotrii.

Id like to add the tribune isnt a judge etc, he is just a representative If needed, he can also be drafted in to do any lesser tasks, like the Pro Curator, kinda, as I said Just playing with Ideas.

[Tacticalwithdrawal]

why not make it part of the job of the syntagma pro-curator? goes with the semi-impartial position they have to take on laws etc..... and stops us having yet another post to fill.

Or another option would be to have it as part of the role/duties of Senatorii, ie. if something comes up that requires this sort of role the pleb appeals to a senatorii to sort it out. Has the added advantage that senatorii have experience of moderating as well.

[Sinuhet]

The Tribune of the Plebs Act

The Syntagma Curator can appoint a Tribune of the Plebs to act as the representative of the Plebs in the Curia. The Tribune of the Plebs role is to take complaints from Plebs to the curia; he also has the ability of taking a Plebs case to the Tribunal for review. The Tribune will also have to ensure a neutral stance; he will be awarded moderation powers over Consilium Publicum to ensure it’s kept in order without Magistrates having to act and in so doing looking bias.


Why?

-To Give the Plebs a voice, as much of a voice as possible.
-To allow Plebs to have a limited involvement if they are interested while keeping politics away from those who it doesn’t interest.
-To have a neutral Voice in the Curia and Consilium Publicum
-To Potentially aid forum stability

Ave Lucius Vorenus!

My opinion on this new function/institution you personally already know. In concordance with my previous statements on this topic I would suggest to do such a function only for purpose of more direct linkage of common members/Plebs to the legislative processes (and only on the legislative) in the Curia - no votes, but suggestions of the laws.

As for the more direct linkage to the judicial role of Tribunal as proposed in your second act I further prefer my suggested solution of the Council independent in its decision-making from the staff or the Curia. For more detailed information about this suggestion can everybody see this thread in the Consilium Publicum: link, the core ideas of this sugestion are from the post No. 32.

The core idea of the Council (from the Senatorii) is the same as suggested in the above-post of TW in this thread before a while.

Bye Sinuhet

[the Black Prince]

i think its a good idea, and might help to make the members more involved in the curia before their civitateship, not sure how much good they'll do on the judicial side of things with the tribue, but i think the details can be worked out to make it effective.

[Simetrical]

This is pointless. Non-Civitates can already post in the Consilium Publicum. We don't need more ranks and procedures.

[Kscott]

This is pointless. Non-Civitates can already post in the Consilium Publicum. We don't need more ranks and procedures.

agree completly, maybe add some responsibilities to the Republican Consul...

[Fabolous]

I agree with what TBN has been saying.

Picking a person outside of staff just doesn't seen to work very well. Picking someone in staff doesn't stop the staff bias people. But every forum has "staff is biased" folks, it is just how things are.

But the only way this could really work is by picking a staff member, and the obvious choice would be the Rep. Consul. Of course he will likely be very busy, so I guess he could appoint another staff member to do such a thing.

[Obi Wan Asterix]

Its a fantastic and fine intitiative.

I highly disagree with all positions being pragmatic, I think a Tribune could definitelly stimulate the Curia and organize debates (competencies which I think would help the Pro-Curator, who is a partial staff member)

BUT:

Given the limited real power of this position I thinl we should take an experimental risk and elect the Tribune in the Curia

[Basileos Leandros I]

I agree with this. Let the plebs know what the Senators are doing.

I congratulate the great Senatorii Lucius Vorenus.

[Tacticalwithdrawal]

and I say again, why not make it part of the role of the Syntagma Pro-curator?

they are already elected (or at least will be this time round)

they are already heavily involved in the Curia & have local moderator rights

they aren't staff but also are more than just non-staff

their role is already seen as fairly neutral

also, by the very nature of the role, the pro-curator will have a very good idea of what is going on

[Obi Wan Asterix]

and I say again, why not make it part of the role of the Syntagma Pro-curator?

they are already elected (or at least will be this time round)

they are already heavily involved in the Curia & have local moderator rights

they aren't staff but also are more than just non-staff

their role is already seen as fairly neutral

also, by the very nature of the role, the pro-curator will have a very good idea of what is going on

I see the increase of positions, some of which are not staff positions, as a step towards the building up of the Curia's democratic capacities. I think a Tribune of the Plebs would be an enjoyable position, which possibly could have some responsibility to reach outside of the Curia.

because as the pro-curator is non staff and appointed, his powers should be limityed to his trole of curia management, lets not make the pro-curator some mighty powerful figure outside of the staff hierarchy.

i see no reason at all why the tribune can't be a seperate rank, on equal to the pro-curator, to raise issues from members within the curia

Absolutelly agree Maestro!

[the Black Prince]

because as the pro-curator is non staff and appointed, his powers should be limityed to his trole of curia management, lets not make the pro-curator some mighty powerful figure outside of the staff hierarchy.

i see no reason at all why the tribune can't be a seperate rank, on equal to the pro-curator, to raise issues from members within the curia

[Tacticalwithdrawal]

because as the pro-curator is non staff and appointed, his powers should be limityed to his trole of curia management, lets not make the pro-curator some mighty powerful figure outside of the staff hierarchy.

i see no reason at all why the tribune can't be a seperate rank, on equal to the pro-curator, to raise issues from members within the curia

my only worry is that we have had problems in the past filling staff ranks and adding another role could add to that.