☧-mas, historically, why it's the 25th

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Well we all love christmas time here. But why Is it he 25th of December? Technically, based on events described in the bible, it should be between the 5th and 20th of April or May. As that's when the planets would be bright enough to create the star, and that 's he only time of the year shepards attended their flocks to keep an eye on the pregnant female sheep. I saw on TV that the catholics placed it on the 25th in the 4th century to interfere with the Festival of Mithras. I also read that it was to distrupt the Dies Nativis (or is it festivus?) Sol Invictus. But what do you think, historically? I'd like to know why it's on the 25th?

[Prince of Judah]

It was chosen because pagans already celebrated the winter solstice, so there is no reason to not join in the fun. About the star of Bethlehem... You are assuming that it was a planet. If I were to put an actual celestial object on it, I'd say it was a comet. The Magi were astrologers, so it may have been something only they would have recognized. It may have been something spiritual, that only they could see. The Magi had access to Judaic scripture, because they were Persian, therefore, they may have been led to Christ by the star because they interpreted those Tanakh prophecies, which might be all or part of their motivation.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Yeah but the thing is with that is that the comets we know of didn't occur at that time. Halley's comet was considered a potential candidate but it doesn't occur anywhere between the 6bce - 4bce timeframe. There was a reason why they said it was the alignment of saturn, jupiter, venus, and mercury but I can't remember why.

[wulfgar610]

The cult of Sol Invictus was the last major challenge Christianity and remained quite strong for a long while after Christianity was officially adopted. The real trick was to get the leadership of another religious factions to join yours, cults where only as strong as their leadership.

That's why the Christians transferred the Sabbath to Sunday. The solar cult seemed to be purists and unworldly like aspects of Christianity.

The official Church history has Christianity completely triumphant with Constantine I, but actually surviving history points to a slower tradition. A great thinker like Augustine was a Manichean in his younger days at the close of the 4th century.

[Gromovnik]

The official Church history has Christianity completely triumphant with Constantine I...

where did you get that from?

[wulfgar610]

where did you get that from?

I'm not referring to recent scholarship, but you go back a little in time and that was the view promulgated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/checco/2101458738/

The wooden ceiling that Leo X (pontiff from 1513 to 1521) had built was replaced in the time of Gregory XIII with a ceiling that was decorated with frescoes. The task was entrusted to the Sicilian painter Tommaso Laureti who began the work in 1582, completing it in 1585 under Pope Sixtus V (pontiff from 1585 to 1590). In the central panel Laureti illustrated the Triumph of Christian religion that refers to the destruction of the pagan idols and their replacement with the image of Christ, ordered by Constantine throughout the empire.

I suspect paganism remained strong for a lot longer than is admitted today. Well into the 5th century I suspect most of the upper class had little sympathy with Christianity and only tolerated it as politically expedient. It was the religion of the poor.

I suspect Theodosius II was at heart still a pagan. I suspect the officially excepted Christianity of the time bore little relation to what came later and was wedded with the solar deity. I suspect the pagan idols where still standing beside Christian icons in the 5th century in main places of worship.

I suspect much of official history of the time is a concoction.

[Valentinian Victor]

In 4BC there was a conjunction of planets that would have had very mystical significance to astrologers. This is believed to be the 'star' that signalled the birth of the Messiah. A number of scientists believe that this is the date of Jesus birth, and it happened, if memory serves, in March of that year.

[Julianus Flavius]

I suspect much of official history of the time is a concoction.

Let's be honest, the dark ages are a bad time to try and get correct, unimbellished facts on anything, much less something governments wanted to have covered up

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Also, I agree with wulfgar, I personally believe more romans were arians than catholics. It's hard to transfer from 50 to 1 god. so Arianism and pelagianism etc. added a stepping stone to catholicism.

[Constantius]

Also, I agree with wulfgar, I personally believe more romans were arians than catholics. It's hard to transfer from 50 to 1 god. so Arianism and pelagianism etc. added a stepping stone to catholicism.

Arrianism is Christianity with a slight difference in the relationship between Jesus and the father, its not a stepping stone between Catholism and Paganism, several Emperors had been Arrians including Valens and ConstantiusII, It was only during the reigh of TheodosiusII (a devout Christian) that Arianism was, lets just say un attractive to the elite.

[Julianus Flavius]

I'd imagine it would be like when democracy was first instituted in britain. The ruling classes were ambivalent to it but allowed it because it did not at that time pose any real threat to them.

[wulfgar610]

I'd imagine it would be like when democracy was first instituted in britain. The ruling classes were ambivalent to it but allowed it because it did not at that time pose any real threat to them.

I find the religious controversies about the number of angels to fit on a pinhead a bit hard to follow. Personally I take a more Marxist Freudian view and the controversies related to the social political order.

Catholicism seemed to be more about extreme control. Arianism appealed to those with a more independent streak in their personality. This would be very much in keeping with Aetius who had a habit of not towing the line. In some of the western heresies more emphasis was placed on personal decision making where as Catholicism evolved towards a rigid social order.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I understand what your saying but the the heck does aetius have to do with any of this?

[Julianus Flavius]

I think he meant Arius

[wulfgar610]

It's not me that noted it, historians already have.. But it can be observed that those showing leadship skill in this period were often heretics. Catholicism was all about towing the line, passivity. For Sub Roman Britain was an entire heretic state, following Pelagius, there the population resisted the invader virulently
If you have a strong army, you may not need strong leaders. But with the broken armies of the west, strong decisive leadership was the only hope.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

True True, I myself have speculated Aetius to be an Arian or possibly a Pagan, based on the fact that he lived with An Arian (Goths) and then a Pagan (Huns) culture during the majority of his later childhood as a page.

[Megasalexandros]

For as antichristians the date of christmas is just an anti pagan anti Greco Roman, judeo christian scandal, cause that was the celebration of Apollo, and the christians just placed their celebration upon the pagan celebration.

[wulfgar610]

War is a racket and religion is a business.

The reason Christianity won the fight is it was well organized, a skill acquired by a few centuries of being an underground cult. It appealed to Constantine because it was so centrally organized and he saw it as a more useful tool for the dominate.

[elite_commando]

i think sheldon explains the origins of christmas clearly, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoj6vQHdzHo

[wulfgar610]

i think sheldon explains the origins of christmas clearly, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoj6vQHdzHo

I remember a book called "Spock Messiah", is that the new holy word? I guess Sheldon must be the new St. Paul?