Two allies at war for 10 turns

[FootSoldier]

I have two curious alliance events which I don't understand, and I'm wondering if it's a bug, or if there is an explanation. Let me say I've been experimenting with diplomacy, relations and reputation as the Danes.

Firstly, two of my allies are at war with each other (Portugal and France) but remain allied to me as the Danes. This is going on for over 10 turns now. The Danes are paying France 500 per turn for 10 turns for purchasing Rennes. I have Perfect relations with both. I have not been asked to choose between them. (see screenshots).

I understood this wasn't possible ...

Secondly, on the diplomacy screen with Egypt the option of alliance appears, even though they are at war with allies the Turks (see screenshot). Out of curiosity I proceeded (the Danes don't want an alliance with Egypt). The alliance offer was accepted, and it had the effect of producing a ceasefire between Egypt and Turkey. Neither is a vassal to Denmark.

What is going on?

The Danes reputation is "Very Reliable", and relations with 3/4 of the factions are Outstanding or Perfect.

They have 10 alliances with the new one from Egypt

The Danes have 15 diplomats, on the way to having one stationed at each faction, with replacements for the old in motion. No factions have been destroyed.

Anyone have an explanation? Bug? Hallucination - i.e. do you see the same screenshot I do?

[Timur_the_Lame]

Well the Egypt-Turks thing happens often. You can often end a war between to countries by allying with both (although sometimes it doesn't allow you too).

The fact that you are still allied to two factions at war though, I have never seen. It always makes me choose one or the other.

[Double A]

Well the Egypt-Turks thing happens often. You can often end a war between to countries by allying with both (although sometimes it doesn't allow you too).

The fact that you are still allied to two factions at war though, I have never seen. It always makes me choose one or the other.

Same here.

The reason you can't sometimes end a war is because you already did it. I don't think you can do it with the same factions twice.

[Incomitatus]

The reason you can't sometimes end a war is because you already did it. I don't think you can do it with the same factions twice.

That's not the impediment. The rule is that you are not allowed to ally with two countries which are at war with each other if either one has any of the other's settlements under siege. You may only force an end to the war when there is no active hostility (ie. no sieges).

[Double A]

That's not the impediment. The rule is that you are not allowed to ally with two countries which are at war with each other if either one has any of the other's settlements under siege. You may only force an end to the war when there is no active hostility (ie. no sieges).

That helps me so much.

[tudor93]

The fact that you are still allied to two factions at war though, I have never seen. It always makes me choose one or the other.

lol, this happened to me all the time (I don't play M2TW anymore) ; If I allied with 2 factions and then they will start a war between them I don't get to choose one or another, I'll still be allied with both of them

[Wegen7 die Große]

Firstly, two of my allies are at war with each other (Portugal and France) but remain allied to me as the Danes. This is going on for over 10 turns now.

I have seen that happen a couple of times. I do not know why sometimes it happens and sometimes it does not.

Secondly, on the diplomacy screen with Egypt the option of alliance appears, even though they are at war with allies the Turks (see screenshot). Out of curiosity I proceeded (the Danes don't want an alliance with Egypt). The alliance offer was accepted, and it had the effect of producing a ceasefire between Egypt and Turkey.

That will usually happen.

[FootSoldier]

Hmm .... I've not seen either before. Maybe I'd simply been too intent on conquest to notice.

So I'm wondering if it's also to do with improved reliability. I'd not taken alliances very seriously before, and would be happy with a Mixed reputation, but often finished as Despicable :d Now I've got Very Reliable as reputation.

With the 2 allies (Portugal and France) at war more curious things have happened. At the time my current king was married to a Portuguese princess. There were no marriages to the French.

A couple of turns later this princess (Maria) dies aged 44. Then I get a "Faction Destroyed - Portugal" scroll, and their territories of Bordeaux, Pamplona, Zaragoza and Lisbon all go rebel. I checked back with toggle_fow to the previous save 2 turns earlier. I could find only 1 family member, aged 51 in Pamplona. He was not FH or king. I could not find the king, and I could not find the faction heir. I checked their two fleets, and one was carrying a single unknown ?unit. I scrolled the map from Sarkel to Arguin for crusade armies gone astray. None. I scanned the waters from the Black Sea and the Red Sea to the New World, and found no more ships. No territories were sieged. I found a single Spanish assassin in Moorish Cordoba.

Obviously I no longer have 2 allies at war. But, does anyone have an explanation for the disappearance of the Portuguese royal family? Could it be assassins? Would I be able to see them all with fow lifted? And, why would Queen Maria died aged 44? (Was this to stop the Danish king from inheriting Portugal?)

On the second diplomatic question of allying with the enemy of an ally and producing a ceasefire as a consequence - any ideas on what might trigger this? I checked similar situations in the current game with my multitude of diplomats. Ally Hungary was at war with both the Byzantines and Poland, and ally Milan at war with Venice, but no option to make alliance appeared. I note the Egypt/Turkey war involved 2 Muslim nations.

Could it after all be some kind of bug?

[KingofPoland]

Queen Maria died because Portugal was destroyed. It's the same thing with Cardinals because a princess can't be rebel and a cardinal can't become a heretic. I think priests become heretics though. I was the HRE once and I allied to Sicily with marriage and the backstabbed me, so I destroyed their faction and the princess died the same turn I took Palermo. I also was allied with two warring factions as Venice which were Denmark and Poland but I didn't have to choose one.

[FootSoldier]

That's interesting KingofPoland. Princess Maria dying when the faction was destroyed makes game sense.

Any ideas of how they were destroyed? Assassins is the only thing I can think of ... but there must have been 3 family members at the turn start. There was the family member in Pamplona, and somewhere I couldn't find were the FH and King. (I'm wondering if they were in an ambush position, now). To get all 3 in one turn would be a good run for any gang of assassins.

And now I've had peace forced on me! (see screenshot). Denmark's ally Milan allied with Denmark's enemy the HRE - and a truce was forced. Denmark had just taken Stauffen with a crusade, and then Metz in the same turn. Nuremberg was in the sights for the next turn ... and just to top it off the Pope died the same turn (how about that!) so now the HRE is reconciled. Since I'm playing the diplomacy game with a Very Reliable reputation I don't want to just charge in.

This probably means the Danes will be attacked by Milan any time now :d

For the how to force a ceasefire - well, Incomitatus could be correct. No active hostility e.g. a siege, when the option became available? What about if they fought a battle at the previous end turn? Could it be that if there had been no hostile actions for say 3 turns then the option becomes available?

I'm also wondering if it requires a certain level of diplomat - the option for the Danes to force peace between ally Turkey and their enemy Egypt was with a level 6 diplomat. The Milanese diplomat who made the HRE deal is level 4.

As for Portugal vs France, where both were allies to Denmark - they'd had battles every turn (my spy tells me). Portugal had just taken Bordeaux when they were destroyed the next turn. I'm still curious about what condition allows that - where you are married into the family of one of the combatants? (i.e. as Princess Maria of Portugal was married into the Danes, although there was nothing with France).

[FootSoldier]

I can confirm what Incomitatus said - seems you can force a truce between ally and ally's enemy one move after a siege has finished, or on a turn where they've been battling. The proof is almost conclusive. I have screenshots ^^

On Turn 61 Denmarks's ally Scotland sieged and captured London, exterminating the population. The English are down to Nottingham. On Turn 62 Denmark has the option to ally with with the English. On the end turn Scotland invades Nottingham, and defeats the English twice in battle. On Turn 63 Denmark still has the option to ally with England. (The English army in ambush in Danish Caen has been there since the Danes bought Caen from them 20 turns earlier).

I will post again if/when Scotland sieges Nottingham, as looks likely in the next few turns.

To anyone following - yes, Milan attacked the noble Danes (how could they?) and their ally France. Milan then marched an army around Paris, belonging to ally France, who seemed a bit iffy with the Danes. Then in the end turn Milan offers a ceasefire. The Danes ask for Dijon. Milan accepts!

Of course, nothing is free, and the Danes were sucked in by Milan. When the end turn finishes Milan is excommunicated for taking Marseilles from France while the Danes were distracted by their army outside Paris. Inquisitors appear in Danish Angers (also bought from France). A plague strikes Danish capital Arhus. Relations fall with all other catholic countries. Spies reveal 2 full stacks of Gen Xbows and Italian Spear Militia crouched in ambush positions outside Dijon.

Ok, outraged, Denmark has launched a crusade against Milan and reputation be damned!

[painter]

This has been most informative. I hadn't even realised that my Queen Constance has been dead for 18 years. She had looked so healthy when I last saw her a month ago. (In the Family Tree, she was still coloured.)

Creepiness and being the worst possible husband aside, I do not believe there is a minimum level of diplomacy in order to unlock options or ensure success. I believe they only influence what the faction thinks of you at that point in time. When engaging in diplomacy, I think that the best people to approach are captains. They appear to not demand as much as generals or other diplomatic agents do.

[FootSoldier]

Regarding making an alliance with the enemy of an ally and forcing a ceasefire - I have to retract, and disprove Incomitatus' theory that it was possible only if no sieging. In fact, it will lift a siege.

(Yes, I have screenshots: all on Turn 64, summer 1112 - I'm using 6 monthly turns).

This alliance option was available in 2 places where sieges were taking place (see screenshots):
- ally Scotland sieged neutral English Nottingham, and the English were still available for alliance
- ally Sicily sieged neutral HRE Bologna, and the HRE were available for alliance.

Curious I allied with the HRE as a test. This had the effect of forcing a ceasefire between the HRE and Sicily, and the siege was lifted (see screenshot). Note: the HRE are also at war with ally Venice, so there's 2 allies at war with this neutral.

In this campaign the alliance option is also available for Egypt, which is the enemy of ally Turkey.

However, the alliance option is not available for the neutral Byzantines, who are the enemy of allies Hungary and Turkey.

I cannot see a rule that says when the option to ally with the enemy of an ally is present. Any more ideas?

Edit: Looking again at the diplomatic scroll I realized a possible common denominator - none of the countries with alliance option have any allies of their own. England, Egypt and the HRE have no allies. The Byzantines are allied to Poland.

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In other news, where my ally Milan allied with my enemy the HRE and forced a ceasefire (see my previous post). Milan then attacked me, (as expected) and two turns later offered a ceasefire. I demanded Dijon as the price, and Milan Happily Accepted. My Danes then discovered that Milan was excommunicated for taking Marseilles from ally France, and both the world and nature showed their disapproval to the Danes (falling relations, inquisitors, and plague at the Danish capital).

Despite accepting the ceasefire (in ignorance) the next turn the Danes launched a crusade against Milan to retake Marseilles. This is the first war the Danes have started, as I'm working on my reputation, and was reluctant to do this. In the same turn I also gave Dijon to the French in exchange for military access.

Well, surprise for me - the Danish reputation improved from Very Reliable to Trustworthy, despite starting a war. (You can see this on the diplomatic scroll screenshot with England).

This was already in the screenshot of the diplomatic scroll that I posted last night re alliance with England, but I hadn't noticed at that point.

Gratifyingly the HRE joined the crusade against their new ally Milan, and their reputation dropped from Untrustworthy to Despicable.

The Danes took Marseilles with the crusade, and swapped it for Bordeaux with the French, who Happily Accepted. The successful former crusade armies of Denmark (there were 2) then attacked Genoa (taken that same turn) and sieged Milan.

Betrayal. This caused the French to attack their allies the Danes by way of a blockade on newly acquired Bordeaux. (Perhaps the Danes should have given France Marseilles without any price???). France's reputation dropped from Mixed to Untrustworthy, while the Danes remain Trustworthy.

Edit I had a Danish diplomat demand 100 florins from the treacherous French. They were Appreciative, and offered 970 for 5 turns for "Please do not attack". Denmark upped this to 1250 for 7 turns, which was accepted.

Meanwhile, they reinforce, and so do the Danes.

[painter]

Reputation doesn't seem to be negatively affected by starting a war, only how it was conducted (sacking, extermination and executing prisoners) and how long it drags on for. I do not know for sure, but I think a blitzkrieg that ends in the same turn it was started on might not even touch your reputation at all.

Regarding the treacherous French, they had larger armies than you in that region and yet they still accepted a "Please do not attack" agreement?

And you are lucky in that alliances are usually very generous for you. In my case, everybody doesn't seem to be interested in making an alliance with me. I suppose that is an effect of having the largest kingdom around.

[FootSoldier]

Hmm ... this is a summary post. I hope I have rules that cover both situations I first posted about.

In my Danish campaign it happened again that 2 allies went to war, and I didn't have to choose - 3 in this case. I was also able to make a marriage alliance with the enemy of 2 allies, which forced a ceasefire. (Yes, I've got a screenshot). In another case, my ally (Milan) allied with my enemy (the HRE) and forced a ceasefire between me and the HRE.

What I'm not sure about is whether reputation (Very Trustworthy) plays a part in this.

In the light of this game experience I think the rules are (90% sure):

1. You can ally with the enemy of an ally when that enemy has no other alliances.

This will force a ceasefire, including lifting a siege. This where your ally was sieging his enemy who now becomes your ally.

2. You don't have to choose if you have a marriage alliance with one faction who goes to war with another ally

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O.k., the evidence. I experimented with this in several different situations, and the results are below. I'm really not sure about reputation - this is the first time I've been Very Trustworthy. There's screenshots scattered right through this thread ... the new one is about when Poland (marriage alliance) goes to war with Hungary (alliance) and I didn't have to choose. There's screenshots of a siege being lifted earlier.

1. Evidence - Two allies at war

First case - the Danes had a marriage alliance with Portugal, and an ordinary alliance with France. When they went to war I didn't have to choose. (The screenshots are in my first post).

Second case - Poland (marriage alliance) and Russia (ordinary alliance) went to war with Hungary (ordinary alliance), and again the Danes didn't have to choose. Poland and Russia were also allies of each other.

2. Evidence - Allying with enemy of your ally

First case - I allied with Egypt (no allies), who was an enemy of ally Turkey. Turkey and Egypt ceasefired.

Second case - Milan (ally) formed an alliance with the HRE (no allies, and enemy of the Danes). This forced a ceasefire between my Danes and the HRE (grrrrrr!)

Third case - I allied with the HRE (no allies) who was being sieged at Bologna by Sicily (ally). The HRE and Sicily immediately went neutral, and Sicily lifted it's siege of HRE Bologna. This was immediate, not at end turn.

Fourth case - Russia (ally) and Hungary (ally) were at war with Poland (neutral). Poland had no other allies. A Danish Princess was offered the choice of "Marry faction heir" on the diplomatic screen. She proposed, and was accepted. Both Russia and Hungary ceasefired with Poland immediately.

I could go on (really??? ) but this is probably enough.

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Reputation doesn't seem to be negatively affected by starting a war, only how it was conducted

Oh really? I always understood starting a war did affect reputation. I may have been wasting a lot of time getting other factions to attack me :d Usually I put a unit on their port so it's blockaded, which curiously doesn't seem to be an act of war. That sets them off

Regarding the treacherous French, they had larger armies than you in that region and yet they still accepted a "Please do not attack" agreement?

Yes, I regularly get "Please do not attack" and payments for it, whether Reliable or Despicable. I have a diplomatic gambit - my diplomat goes to the enemy and demands they give 100 florins. Sometimes they offer payment to not attack (amongst many the Mongols have done this).

Mind you, the Mongols kept reinforcing, so I think this was a ploy.

And you are lucky in that alliances are usually very generous for you. In my case, everybody doesn't seem to be interested in making an alliance with me. I suppose that is an effect of having the largest kingdom around.

Usually alliances are Very Demanding for Despicable me. This is the first time my reputation is Very Trustworthy, and I think it's making all diplomacy easier.

I'm Very Trustworthy, despite having grabbed 20 territories.

The biggest benefit is that enemy stacks don't shout insults at me - in fact, they're generally polite, and I often get called "Noble One"

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Sorry for all the long posts. I'm too enthusiastic. I'll work on cutting them down.

[painter]

I hope to be able to make use of your hard earned information. Unfortunately, it won't be happening any time soon as my current princesses, FL and FH are all happily married.

Would anyone happen to know if the FL and FH must be married first before all the other single generals and princesses may get married?

Oh really? I always understood starting a war did affect reputation. I may have been wasting a lot of time getting other factions to attack me :d Usually I put a unit on their port so it's blockaded, which curiously doesn't seem to be an act of war. That sets them off

By a funny coincidence, I had learned of it when I destroyed Milan through a blitzkrieg and gained the next level in my global reputation. But what I don't know is how starting a war would effect your diplomatic relationship with the faction. I do know they still won't be reasonable if they were the ones that started it, at least until they approach you for a ceasefire.

I had known that stepping on a port would blockade it, but I didn't know that it would not start a war if there hasn't been one ongoing. Thanks for the tip.

Yes, I regularly get "Please do not attack" and payments for it, whether Reliable or Despicable. I have a diplomatic gambit - my diplomat goes to the enemy and demands they give 100 florins. Sometimes they offer payment to not attack (amongst many the Mongols have done this).

Did you also threatened to attack as well as demanding tribute or did you just demand a tribute and see how they respond? If you had also threatened to attack, I'm surprised that your relationship doesn't suffer.

Usually alliances are Very Demanding for Despicable me. This is the first time my reputation is Very Trustworthy, and I think it's making all diplomacy easier.

I'm Very Trustworthy, despite having grabbed 20 territories.

The biggest benefit is that enemy stacks don't shout insults at me - in fact, they're generally polite, and I often get called "Noble One"

Being Very Trustworthy doesn't necessarily make diplomacy any easier. I've had it for a long time while growing to more than 60 regions but a lot of factions still declared war on me. Asking for ceasefires also required me to pay more than 8,000 florins for three turns to most of the belligerent factions. And diplomats of other factions are still likely talk smack of my "reputation" when making certain queries like alliances, offers to attack another faction and so on. I don't understand how they get the idea that I am a tyrant or untrustworthy.

Sorry for all the long posts. I'm too enthusiastic. I'll work on cutting them down.

Being concise might help in digesting, but there is little need to excuse enthusiasm.