Slav ethnogenes and political implications

[Dromikaites]

OK since u convinced yourself now try yo convince the slavomacedonians too
for a first step u can visit one of forums where such debates take place and find out yourself the amount of respect to our borders and our history that they show

Look man, I am not fighting anybody's war. If I find an interesting topic, I post on it. That's all.

dromokaites u are missing that the macs were a unique stock of hellenic people because simple they cannot be something else....
if they were not people of hellenic stock,then WHAT are they since before their rise they were an unimportant and fameless little kingdom?

They could have been Thracians or Illyrians.

since they are NOWHERE named as one of the numerous Illyrians and Thracian tribes and since they themselves say they share common descend with greeks and since they share ALL kinds of bondages in mythology,religion,language,names with Hellenism they can be considered a part of Hellenism as well as any Hellenic tribe

Their elite was Hellenised and their royal family claimed to be descendents of the Argives. Did you ask yourself why there is a legend about the royal family and no legend about the rest of the people? For instance the Romans have that legend that their ancestors were the Trojans who escaped the besieged city and were lead to Italy by Aeneas. The Macedonians had no similar legend to be invoked, therefore their kings needed to "prove" they were of Greek descent by invoking a "family legend" instead of a "people legend".

i mean whats more likely to be truth?
that they were of Hellenic stock or that they had nothing to do with greeks in the first place? (and were nothing like Hellenic therefore)
its illogical to claim that their nobles only were Hellenic
i mean how would their subjects (the supposed non greek low class Macedonians accept foreign people for their royal house for SO LONG time???)

What makes you think the low class considered their rulers foreigners? The Russian nobles at the time of Napoleon's invasion were speaking French and several of them actually could not speak Russian at all. Beiseds we have the Philotas' trial episode: Alexander wants Philotas to look bad in the eyes of the Macedonians so he orders him to speak in Macedonian, not in Greek. Alexander goes as far as accusing Philotas of despise for his native language and native culture. Philotas answers that he prefers to defend himself in the Greek language (used by Alexander himself when acusing him) because most of the people present at the trial are understanding Greek, not Macedonian. The incident tells us several things:
1) The elite was fluent in Greek but that was not the language of everyday use for the common Macedonians;
2) The lower ranks would be offended to see a member of the elite showing contempt for the Macedonian language and customs (the evidence against Philotas was circumsantial so Alexander wanted to make Macedonians hate him in order to get him convicted).
3) Greek and Macedonian languages were not close for non-Macedonians to understand a pleading in Macedonian.

the evidence which come from ancient sources are enouph to be used for someone who wants to back both for and against the macs being greeks
....its easy for me to c/p ALL stuff for both sides!

Nope, it's more like most of the contemporary evidence points towards Macedonians being different than Greeks and with the Macedonian elite being Hellenised (similar to the Russian one who was Francophone).

instead u (and many greeks as well) should try to get closer to the whole picture of the puzzle by accepting some facts that are logical,than skate on ice by claiming all sort of wild things

Oh, so you say that there are Greeks who also doubt the Greekness of the Macedonians? Well, well such traitors should be stripped of their citizenship and expelled from Greece then

the macedonians were unique people proud of their hellenic descend and struggled to be accepted as proper and equal greeks in all hellenic constitutions and finally succeeded it and also became hegemons of all the Hellenes.....NO barbarian ever managed to do so and NO barbarian ever tried simple because they were proud of being barbarians and didnt need to be accepted as greeks

You are talking about the Macedonian kings. Not even the Macedonian noblemen shared those views at all times.

u and your failure in speaking with reason along with your audacity is indeed very funny....
i well recall that we tricked u in irc (along with other hatred little persons) and made u confess all about your attitude
...and we tricked u very easily indeed because we took advantage of your evident self conceit!
same as i recall that before i tell u what "malakas" means u thought it meant "gay" :laughing:

I don't own an IRC account so you must be mixing memories from your many "patriotic" wars. As for the "malaka", I happen to know worse dirty words in Greek. We have many Greek students in Romania The issue was this: I had to make you admit you were using dirty words so I provided a wrong translation of your insult. You jumped on the opportunity to set the record straight and you did it so well that the moderator closed the thread

-u cant help yourself with trying to reduce other people by lying and making wild hypothesis out of your ignorance-

as i said before the propaganda is used by weak people who wish to hide their disabilities
so i perfectly understand the reason u tried to propagandise against me (again)



LOL
u have big idea for yourself :laughing:
the circus came in town!i enjoy u well

He, he, you are indeed that Apostate

but firstly,before u continue with "macedonian issue",u d better try to conform some Romanian people,like your little friend "Makidon" who think those are the real macs or whatever :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Here I'm lost! I have no clue what are you talking about but I'm sure you'll enlight me ASAP. Yet keep in mind this is a topic dedicated to Alinei's theory. As I said, I'd gladly particpate in a debate on Macedonia provided you open a thread. I am not in the business of opening controversial threads. I'm in that of bashing people who open them

[apostate]

I do have a thing against fanaticism of all sorts and therefore I do ridicule "patriots" and fundamentalists of any kind, size and in any numbers.

strange is that u seem to identify that sort of people to greeks only
i m pretty sure that if u look around u will see plenty of better examples from people both belonging in strong countries and to small countries as well (and also u will see good examples on certain countries foreign policies itself)

if u open your eyes u could see in a thread of that section a Turkish lad using as avatar a symbol of the extremist,nationalistic,intolerant and racist party of "grey wolves" that i m sure u know but u dont seem to be annoyed or had any problem so far

----------------------

They could have been Thracians or Illyrians.

never and nowhere is mentioned anything similar...its your own hypothesis

Their elite was Hellenised and their royal family claimed to be descendents of the Argives. Did you ask yourself why there is a legend about the royal family and no legend about the rest of the people? For instance the Romans have that legend that their ancestors were the Trojans who escaped the besieged city and were lead to Italy by Aeneas. The Macedonians had no similar legend to be invoked, therefore their kings needed to "prove" they were of Greek descent by invoking a "family legend" instead of a "people legend".

well as a rule such great ethnological and cultural differences between social classes can not be long lasting....usually the upper class soon manages to apply its ways to the lesser classes or its exterminated or a new mixed culture is bornt....

What makes you think the low class considered their rulers foreigners? The Russian nobles at the time of Napoleon's invasion were speaking French and several of them actually could not speak Russian at all.

thats why later on they were exterminated
(bad example-u lose) :laughing:

Beiseds we have the Philotas' trial episode: Alexander wants Philotas to look bad in the eyes of the Macedonians so he orders him to speak in Macedonian, not in Greek. Alexander goes as far as accusing Philotas of despise for his native language and native culture. Philotas answers that he prefers to defend himself in the Greek language (used by Alexander himself when acusing him) because most of the people present at the trial are understanding Greek, not Macedonian. The incident tells us several things:
1) The elite was fluent in Greek but that was not the language of everyday use for the common Macedonians;
2) The lower ranks would be offended to see a member of the elite showing contempt for the Macedonian language and customs (the evidence against Philotas was circumsantial so Alexander wanted to make Macedonians hate him in order to get him convicted).
3) Greek and Macedonian languages were not close for non-Macedonians to understand a pleading in Macedonian.

isnt that ONLY mentioned by curtius rufus and no other source?

the episode in the trial is contradictional....it would be stupid for Alexandros to follow what Filotas suggested esp now that he is presented to accuse Filotas of despising his mother tongue when himself is supposed to answer him in attic!

also its quite weird that according to Alexandros Philotas doesnt want to speak his native language?
well all these sound a bit confusing,dont they?


1)pieces of written rough doric language is found in macedonia,however NO other language is found!
(and the biggest archaiological researches were supervised by foreigners,i think french?,therefore u cant accuse greeks for having found and didnt present the findings.....moreover i m pretty sure that if there was any other evidence that would testify your sayings,then slavs who lived in areas which were annexed by macedon kingdom would have found them and make sure that the WHOLE WORLD would know it! :wink:

....usually the slang language esp in a region in the margins of hellenic world would be somewhat difficult understandable by more refined people (i myself nearly CANNOT understand modern greeks of crete,cyprus and of remote areas when they speak with each other,but we all say we are greeks)

3)all people name,regional names,tradition names etc are in greek...and those are things used in everyday life by everybody....

Nope, it's more like most of the contemporary evidence points towards Macedonians being different than Greeks and with the Macedonian elite being Hellenised

well this is a very long issue....and very unclear
however there are no new contemporary evidence BUT some "contemporary" UNDERSTANDINGS of the ancient sources! (which by copincidence they happened in close time with the new FYROM country)

some things seem to be clear thpugh in order to specify the who is who for some people OTHER than the macs! :laughing: :laughing:

-according to what i ve seen and what i have been told from the greek lads in TW related forums,u are one of the top anti-greeks around and that is quite difficult to hide or refuse and that stands both in ancient history issues and in medieval as well (even if i m not considerable interested in the second one though)...its not treally usual nowadays that people adopt the theories of Falm and show so much dispise to modern greeks....
in every occasion u cant stop making negative comments in anything related with greek people,greek history,greek politics and greek government
that cant be a coincidence although i cant see an obvious reason that u are so racist and preoccupied

also regarding slavs themselves,the only case i turn against them,is when i see Serbians promote "Albanophobia" in Balkans
i guess that makes me a hell of a racist,right?

-by insisting on defaming me with little lies shows your personal hatred and your bad attitude
naming me nationalist shows u are quite unfamiliar with greek politics like u are with many other matters u appear as fluent with them
regarding the greek politics and the politically correct patriotism,all greek traditional patriots would consider me totally alien to them and moreover every ordinary greek would consider me erratic for my opionions both in macedonian issue and the way i look to albs (who unlike me, the vast majority of the greeks dont really appreciate)

*well if i was racist,nationalist,NS,KKK or whatever i would not conceal it! :laughing:

-by keeping on bonding lets say bulgarians with thracians and the slavic ethnicities of Balkans with the tradition of pre-slavic populations while regarding greeks (who along with albs are clearly non-Slavic people) u discover that they actually come from.....Slavs!!and u try to reduce their connection with ancient greeks,it reviels that u have some kind of pervertion
not that i find insulting to descend from slavs,but we just dont so we have to point it out!

-by keeping a strict one sided view u just show u are enroled
it would be more clever from u at least to accept some facts that are not really questionable instead of pretending they are of lesser importance or they dont exist at all


now about the terms "barbarian" (non greek) and greek,its not quite clear issue.....
for example the Aitolians along with other people of western Hellas are named in classical times as barbarians while later on when they became more civilized they are named as proper greeks
that example of Aitolians is quite important and revalatory since –unlike the macs- those people are recorded with Hellenic identity from the Homeric epos and are also bonded and interfaced very strongly with the hellenic mythological background,while even the simple existence of macedon is ignored back then
so here is an example of Hellenic people who during classical times are described as "barbarians" due to their uncivilized manners and are excluded by common Hellenic constitutions,but when they come out of savage life then they regain the their Hellenic identity and even control Delfoi for much time

remarkable is also that sources confirm that Macedonians spoke a very similar dialect as the Aitolians and the people of western Hellas

however the Macedonians although its accepted amongst the other Hellenes that their Temenidai royal house is Heracleidic,therefore bonded with greek tradition and bloodline through one of the most central myths,they are easy victims to be accused of being barbarians
that happens firstly because the macedonians on the mountain areas of Pindos they originally lived along with the rest dorians (which is recorded by ancient historians of cource) came probable inmingling with Illyrians.....
secondly because later on when they moved in the plains and established the Macedon kingdom,they occupied and assimilated Thracian populations
so in a regionalist and racist society as the ancient greek one,where blood is very important and outsiders are not popular,its very easy to be stigmatized as barbarian esp by your political enemies

so that map screenshot is self explanatory



the mountains in the west part of screenshot belong to Pindos mountainchain,a place where dorian populations most likely had settled and from where the people who were meant to be named as macedones (those who live higher than edones maybe it could mean) came down and established their state (shown in vanilla Parthian color in that picture)

however in those mountains its possible to assume that also some numbers of Illyrians had also moved there,while in the region of Thermaic Gulf lived previously people of Thracian stock like the Bottiaians
also macedonians are connected with coming from Argos Orestikon is a region where Achains decsedants of Orestes son of Agamemnon are supposed to had settled and not forget that aiolians elements are redorded to be found both in people and in language and that is also self explanatory since the Thessalians who had an Aiolic element (along with more roots as well) live just south of macedon kingdom and also they unlike many greeks accepted macedonians as having the same ancestors and welcomed them from the beginning

anyway i dont think there are actually more to argue on this particular issue
the macs where a mix of Hellenic tribes (as most greeks were),pelasgian tribes along with Illyrian and Thracian people
nothing more and nothing less,everything else is propanada :wink:

so we end up to different approaches for the issue even amongst ancient greeks
for example we see spartans,when they worry that Alexandros carrying the terms of Mardonios terms of agreement would allure the Athenians,imply that he is barbarian thus he is not to be trusted since he is carrying the word of another barbarian (though its a lousy example since persians and macedonians had obviously so little in common),however elsewhere we see the Athenians (who have good relationships with him) not objecting at all when Alexandros again speaks before them of his own greekness with pride

same for their dialect which certainly had non greek elements along with the greek ones,was easy to be stigmatised as barbarian since it sounded rather weird to a greek
however all the findings (of not Hellenistic common/koine dialect) show that their dialect is strongly connected with greek even so much that could be characterized as kind of greek itself


now regarding macs,i have never said that macs are greeks because that isnt quite correct and sounds a bit strange
i always say that macs have the same common hellenic descend as the greeks instead of saying they are greeks in term ancient greeks would understand it

and coming to the modern times,its quite as annoying as funny when all sort of Balkan people including Servobulgarians of FYROM,Bulgarians,(Servians in the past too),even Albs and Romanians claim to have bonds with ancient Macedonians,while ALL of them together try desperately to lower the obvious and common Macedonian heritage of the Hellenes.....

Oh, so you say that there are Greeks who also doubt the Greekness of the Macedonians? Well, well such traitors should be stripped of their citizenship and expelled from Greece then

well nobody can be real sure for such a confusing issue with so sparse safe evidence

I don't own an IRC account so you must be mixing memories from your many "patriotic" wars. As for the "malaka", I happen to know worse dirty words in Greek. We have many Greek students in Romania The issue was this: I had to make you admit you were using dirty words so I provided a wrong translation of your insult. You jumped on the opportunity to set the record straight and you did it so well that the moderator closed the thread

i ll remind u then that u have talked in person with greeks and u were trapped

the way u desperately try to reverse facts is touching but when it comes to really small issues and u put so much effort on reversing it,then it becomes somewhat silly

funny is also all that about the greek words that some people claim they know,like "malakas" to mean gay and the other issue about claiming that dorians/dorieis (δωριείς) come from the word spear/dory (δόρυ) because in english transliteration they look similar,however they are written with different "O" which testifies that dorians comes from a total different root which is doro (δώρο) and means present and also the mythological genarch of dorians is Doros (Δώρος) which of course have nothing to do with the word spear.....(yes that last was a mixed memory for rtr forums)

well that thread ought ot be closed anyway since there was a cheater who was faking he was Macedonian (of the FUROM kind) while his IP said that he was the same with another lad :wink:

Here I'm lost! I have no clue what are you talking about but I'm sure you'll enlight me ASAP. Yet keep in mind this is a topic dedicated to Alinei's theory. As I said, I'd gladly particpate in a debate on Macedonia provided you open a thread.

ok now i m convinced that u are trying to hide!
dont u remember that other lad (your little pal) that u were writing in pairs?!
"Makidon" was his name and he was speaking some really controversary stuff!
(i ll bring more greeks here to testify if u dont start admitting)
-more greeks??!...that sounds as nightmare doesnt it? :sweatingb

I am not in the business of opening controversial threads. I'm in that of bashing people who open them

go ahead and bash people....but be careful not to tear your tights!

He, he, you are indeed that Apostate

congrads u found that one at least!
(better than nothing)

[Odovacar]

But now Dromikaites, you see regardless of the truth, macedonians, greks, etc. have really things to disput about and for them historical ideology is really important. Historical theories are not judged by professional historians but by the common people who is thursty for glory, even for glory that exists only in tales.
In western europe though (and even in the middle-middle east by now) most people on't care history so much to argue about it in national terms. Once I called Harry Potter childish in a forum, and received flaming of all sort, they claimed me nazi, advised me to commit suicide, so sometimes calling in question continuity theories or national pride can be less dangerous than saying the bases opinions about the basest things

[Dromikaites]

now regarding macs,i have never said that macs are greeks because that isnt quite correct and sounds a bit strange
i always say that macs have the same common hellenic descend as the greeks instead of saying they are greeks in term ancient greeks would understand it

Well, what one can safely say is their elite was Hellenised. However on many occasions in history the elite was influenced by another culture: the Russian elite was Francophone, the Normans who have conquered England also spoke French even though they were themselves the descendents of the vikings. Now, if anyone would say the 12th century Englishmen or the 19th century Russians were French because their elites spoke French, that would be a bit of stretch, wouldn't it? The same is with the ancient Macedonians.

What is beyond me is why saying that Macedonians were not Greeks, based on the documents we have about those times, makes me an anti-Greek. Why any discussion on topics like the origins of Macedonians ends up in name calling and why the most vocal side has to be the Greek "patriotic" one?

This is "Vestigia Vetustatis" so I think here the rules of engagement are a bit different than in the "Political Mudpit". If one has an opinion one is backing with documents, the other side simply has to come with a different document or with a different interpretation of the same document. No need to call the others "malakadonians" because that doesn't make your argument stronger. It does, however make your language a strong one

[apostate]

well since they are not really macedonians at least they can be malakadonians (which sounds close and apply to every male and sometimes female even if literally (s)he is not like this) :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
its an everyday slang word that nearly means the same as "lad" means in english

Well, what one can safely say is their elite was Hellenised.

again assumptions assumptions and assumptions.....and no evidence at all
u try to connect agglosaxons,vikings and macs and u mess everything together
the biggest problem is that u bring an example for which there are plenty of data and try to define by using it a dissimilar issue
the result is that u make assumptions over bold assumptions and u end up to defending an unwielding doctrine

the only evidence we know about the people themselves is that herodotos connects them with being dorians who came from Pindos
so unless dorian can include non greek populations then the macedonian common people where a mix of what i have already described which is the most logical and objective and based to original sources i have read

sorry man but your assumptions regarding macs royal house and nobles (btw some of them could be also from Illyrian stock like those who came from Lynkestis after it was annexed) being greek but the rest of the population was not,lacks of logic not only for the reasons i told before but also because the rest greeks don not make any discrimination between the high and the lower class of macedonians

if the royal house was greek rulers,then its members would be accepted at once as proper greeks who rule barbarians (something that is supposed to be very good for a greek to do and in that way was supposed to demonstrate the Hellenic superiority)

now if u say that the royal house members were just hellenised again there is a problem,since those lads APPEAR AS ALREADY HELLENISED PEOPLE BEFORE coming on contact with the greeks,which doesnt make any sense

the mac court at the time before Macedonia was subdued under persian rule lacked of any greek artist,scholar etc as it happened later
however the macedonians appear as speaking greek and also are considered by the persians as subjects of hellenic stock

anyway i dont see any real reson that the high class would act like a greek and speak greek in order to pass off for one of them esp since as u claim when the common people would resent if their leaders would prefer greek to their suppositive native language

also an important issue is that many non greek people including thracians,many tribes of Italian peninsula and also pelasgians have used letters of greek alphabet that their neighbouring greeks used but the words are understood only in their native language and are not understandable by greeks at all (its similar like a greek lad writes greek words by using english letters)
however the macs have never done this and all their inscriptions are in proper greek and not in an alleged "macedonian language" written in greek letters but not understood in greek!

as a result we cannot speak of such discriminations between the people and their royal house
and here again stands the same Q as always : name a non greek race who not only was trying so hard to establish themselves as equals to the greeks but was also claiming Hellenic descend
well again i note that from the numberless races that came in contact with the greeks,none of them (not even the royal house) showed such attitude simply because they didnt have a hellenic descend to justify such a claim


* i ll show u a modern simple example of how things regarding peoples ethnicity can get confusing due to distance and to political issues.....
in uni many greeks lads from cyprus study as well
if i stand next to a group of them (they always have friends their own people and usually the dont like much other greeks) and speak with each other
i myself cant understand a simple word they are telling and actually the way they speak seems quite funny....
i try hard to catch the meaning of what they say but its nothing like i can understand

then if i speak myself with one of them then we speak same and we perfectly understand each other
also those peoples TV programs and official language is greek same as mine
however in their everyday life they speak their dialect (which of course its a greek one) in a way i myself cannot understand....and not only myself....greeks who have done their military service in Cyprus and had spent some time there STILL cannt understand cypriots speaking with each other.....when it comes to writing it down though,then its the same with us

now if i mention that these people sometimes identify themeselevs as cypriots and not greeks,sometimes as cypriots and greeks too and othertimes as greeks from cyprus island then u have a good example that can give u a clue for ancient macs to help u with making maybe some new useful (for yourself) thoughts

moreover nowadays we often use the phrase : "the greeks and the cypriots" (something which similarly was used for macs and greeks) but we both are aware that not only we have the same ethnicity but also that just out of political interests and the desires of GB,Turkey and Israel we are not citizens of the same country although it was the wish of the majority to be so

What is beyond me is why saying that Macedonians were not Greeks, based on the documents we have about those times, makes me an anti-Greek.

the problem with u specifically is that although u claim u have read the sources and i can assume that u ll also claim that u are an objective observer,u totally overlook the evidence that doesnt support your thesis
u pretend that they just dont exist or that they are valueless!
if that aint suspicious then what is it?

-well that attitude can be explained by your own words about making personal show in each debate u take part,or trying to **** off and lower the other guys and making tactical moves in order to make your personal thesis appear stronger than it is-

not to mention that u dont answer back to any of my arguments and instead keep on repeating the story about frankophones Russians,Britons and etc
basically u dont need to answer me back but u just have to explain how there are those references in the original sources

-----------------------

ok thats not the right section but i have to note some things about politics...

OK since u convinced yourself now try yo convince the slavomacedonians too
for a first step u can visit one of forums where such debates take place and find out yourself the amount of respect to our borders and our history that they show

what i meant with this is as follow :

u straightly declared before that :

I do have a thing against fanaticism of all sorts and therefore I do ridicule "patriots" and fundamentalists of any kind, size and in any numbers.

well i can reassure u that there is NO single greek that claims stuff from FYROM both territorial and cultural/historical
and generally speaking here in greece,besides some folkloric churchy people who live in dream world and want....Istanbul back! , we detest imperialists of any sort and nationalists as well!
we dont have any sort of claims at all over neighbouring countries.....

in particular regarding FYROM its nothing to concern as if there is a country like that wherever they want to have one....
on the contrary the greek business and capital/funds move a big part of their economical life by lets say maybe even 2/5 of the whole!
thats good for us to have a poor and weak country in our northern borders that we can make profit out of it and control their economics :wink:
regarding their name i guess few (most of them those greeks who live in north Hellas) would object if there country chose a realistic name such as "Slavomacedonia","Novamacedonia" even "North Macedonia" or "Skopje-Macedonia"

instead they stubbornly dont compromise and insist on a PROVOCATIVE and unrealistic claim which would provide them the MONOPOLY of Hellenic macedonian heritage
the FYROM people are grown up and taught to schools that we greeks have occupied their country

i dont know what xactly all these guys are being taught to their schools but they always come up with big maps showing there country and northern Hellas as supposed to being "macedonia united",while they keep on implying that their dream is to join again their country which alleged was divided during Balkan Wars of 1912-13!
such maps u can easily see in their web sites and they have also published maps which they name northern greece as occupied Macedonia!!
....well since i dont believe that they like the idea of becoming greek citizens,isnt that a straight territorial claim against Greece or what?

funny also is that they name the real region that is connected with macedon kingdom as "Aegian Macedonia"

that can be both silly and unhistorical since they do NOT even accept that the authentic Macedon kingdom was almost entirely located within greek borders and they do not even seem to accept their own slavic/bulgarian identity,but also its very dangerous and creepy to imagine all those boys growing up
its creepy to imagine all the fanatism and the hatred that will be produced in the future

not to mention at least 3-4 of the their own provocative and laughable websites which are written in greek language,thus addressing towards greeks only in order to make us as much outrageous as possible and cause as to easily lose our temper when we encounter them.....amongst other they say amazing stuff like ancient macedonians invented the olympic games and olympic gods,greeks have come in balkans from Sahara desert and Aithiopia and descend from Slavs!
then they conclude with slogans that greece is all...macedonian!.....and all sort of crazy stuff

so that is what i call fundamentalism and moreover its very common that the people of newly established countries are REALLY prone to such attitudes!
It had occurred to ALL Balkan countries after othoman empire collapsed and still some people like the albs dont seem to have entirely get over with their nationalism

-maybe greek side may appear as the most "vocal" one and certainly there are some primitive greek people who end up yelling but that happens because we feel insulted and aggrieved

****************

something else
in "darius the great" tombstone there is an iscription where are listed the various subjects they name the greeks who live on Asia Minor and some islands along with the greeks who live on the other side of the (Aegian) sea

the persians are a "neutral" side which have no interest to lie so here it is :

By the favor of Ahuramazda these are the countries which I seized outside of Persia
I ruled over them
they bore tribute to me
they did what was said to them by me
they held my law firmly
Media, Elam, Parthia, Aria, Bactria, Sogdia, Chorasmia, Drangiana, Arachosia, Sattagydia, Gandara, India, the haoma-drinking Scythians, the Scythians with pointed caps, Babylonia, Assyria, Arabia, Egypt,Armenia, Cappadocia, Lydia, the Greeks, the Scythians across the sea, Thrace, the sun hat-wearing Greeks, the Libyans, the Nubians, the men of Maka and the Carians.

no macs at all although they had been under persian sovereign!
it is assumed that its possible that the "greeks with the hat" are the macedonians since they used to wear a unique hat (which u can see some of them in our macedonian units btw)

cheers! :original:

[apostate]

Media, Elam, Parthia, Aria, Bactria, Sogdia, Chorasmia, Drangiana, Arachosia, Sattagydia, Gandara, India, the haoma-drinking Scythians, the Scythians with pointed caps, Babylonia, Assyria, Arabia, Egypt,Armenia, Cappadocia, Lydia, the Greeks, the Scythians across the sea, Thrace, the sun hat-wearing Greeks, the Libyans, the Nubians, the men of Maka and the Carians.[/b]

btw for no confusion the "Maka" is that area shown in map which obviously has nothing to do with macedonia

[Dromikaites]

well since they are not really macedonians at least they can be malakadonians (which sounds close and apply to every male and sometimes female even if literally (s)he is not like this) :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
its an everyday slang word that nearly means the same as "lad" means in english

Yeah, keep it like that, it served you well on the other thread

the only evidence we know about the people themselves is that herodotos connects them with being dorians who came from Pindos
so unless dorian can include non greek populations then the macedonian common people where a mix of what i have already described which is the most logical and objective and based to original sources i have read

Oh really? Let's look at what Herodotus says about the Pindos issue:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...ction%3D%23167

LVI. When he heard these verses, Croesus was pleased with them above all, for he thought that a mule would never be king of the Medes instead of a man, and therefore that he and his posterity would never lose his empire. Then he sought very carefully to discover who the mightiest of the Greeks were, whom he should make his friends. [2] He found by inquiry that the chief peoples were the Lacedaemonians among those of Doric, and the Athenians among those of Ionic stock. These races, Ionian and Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first a Pelasgian and the second a Hellenic people. The Pelasgian race has never yet left its home; the Hellenic has wandered often and far. [3] For in the days of king Deucalion1 it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian; from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, where it took the name of Dorian.2

So what Herodotus actually says there is the Dorians passed through Macedonia before settling in Peloponnesus. So yes, while passing through they've undoubtely intermarried with the natives, but since Herodotus says they've migrated to Dryopia afterwards I would think whoever stayed behind was eventually assimilated by the natives. That is consistent with the attitude the Greeks had towards the Macedonians: they were not considering them Greks and their kings had to prove their Greekness, which was not taken for granted.

sorry man but your assumptions regarding macs royal house and nobles (btw some of them could be also from Illyrian stock like those who came from Lynkestis after it was annexed) being greek but the rest of the population was not,lacks of logic not only for the reasons i told before but also because the rest greeks don not make any discrimination between the high and the lower class of macedonians

Hellenised doesn't mean Greek just as Franchophone doesn't mean French. The Macedonian elite could speak Greek, the Norman nobility in 12th century England spoke French, the 19th century Russian one also spoke French and some even had French first names. So no, even the Macedonian elite was not Greek. They only spoke Greek.

if the royal house was greek rulers,then its members would be accepted at once as proper greeks who rule barbarians (something that is supposed to be very good for a greek to do and in that way was supposed to demonstrate the Hellenic superiority)

And their claim to be Greeks was not accepted because they were Hellenised (=spoke Greek and copied many of the Greek customs) instead of being Hellenes/Greeks.

now if u say that the royal house members were just hellenised again there is a problem,since those lads APPEAR AS ALREADY HELLENISED PEOPLE BEFORE coming on contact with the greeks,which doesnt make any sense

Huh? Do you care to substantiate that claim?

the mac court at the time before Macedonia was subdued under persian rule lacked of any greek artist,scholar etc as it happened later
however the macedonians appear as speaking greek and also are considered by the persians as subjects of hellenic stock

The members of the nobility seem to have spoken Greek but that was not enough to be accepted as Hellenes by the other Greeks. So Alexandros I had to prove he is a descendent of the Argives.

anyway i dont see any real reson that the high class would act like a greek and speak greek in order to pass off for one of them esp since as u claim when the common people would resent if their leaders would prefer greek to their suppositive native language

Well, the ruling class wanted to pass as Greek when dealing with the Greeks and as Macedonian when dealing with the lower classes (like Alexander the Great when he wanted to get rid of Philotas). Again, that won't be the first time in history when the elite copies what they percieve as a superior culture. The Romans themselves copied lots from the Etruscans and the Greeks.

also an important issue is that many non greek people including thracians,many tribes of Italian peninsula and also pelasgians have used letters of greek alphabet that their neighbouring greeks used but the words are understood only in their native language and are not understandable by greeks at all (its similar like a greek lad writes greek words by using english letters)
however the macs have never done this and all their inscriptions are in proper greek and not in an alleged "macedonian language" written in greek letters but not understood in greek!

He, he, would you care to share with us the link to the Greek-made site which hosts those inscriptions? You did it once, for that RTR thread that got closed, so don't be shy now . If I remember correctly that same site says that the inscriptions on Macedonian monuments are very rare and the translations provided are simply names (and we know the elite was Hellenised already). The Thracian tombstones share the same characteristics. If I also remember correctly, the only long text in Greek on a Macedonian monument is the text of a Macedonian law put on display in a...Greek city, therefore for the use of the Greek subjects.

the problem with u specifically is that although u claim u have read the sources and i can assume that u ll also claim that u are an objective observer,u totally overlook the evidence that doesnt support your thesis u pretend that they just dont exist or that they are valueless!
if that aint suspicious then what is it?

Well, the best strategy for you would be to prove me wrong with documents. However you better start another thread, as this is about Alinei's theory on the ethnogenesis of the Slavs.

-well that attitude can be explained by your own words about making personal show in each debate u take part,or trying to **** off and lower the other guys and making tactical moves in order to make your personal thesis appear stronger than it is-

Humm, let me see: when the other side is using insults I do help that side dig its own grave. A debate should be intellectually stimulating. Insults spoil my pelasure, and so does fanatical behavior. So of course in such cases I help the guy hang himself. It's a matter of hygiene if you will.

-maybe greek side may appear as the most "vocal" one and certainly there are some primitive greek people who end up yelling but that happens because we feel insulted and aggrieved

The question you should ask yourselves is why do you feel insulted when confronted with another opinion? And why do you chose to be the first to call names? And why do you then blame the moderators for banning you or closing your threads?

something else
in "darius the great" tombstone there is an iscription where are listed the various subjects they name the greeks who live on Asia Minor and some islands along with the greeks who live on the other side of the (Aegian) sea

the persians are a "neutral" side which have no interest to lie so here it is :

By the favor of Ahuramazda these are the countries which I seized outside of Persia
I ruled over them
they bore tribute to me
they did what was said to them by me
they held my law firmly
Media, Elam, Parthia, Aria, Bactria, Sogdia, Chorasmia, Drangiana, Arachosia, Sattagydia, Gandara, India, the haoma-drinking Scythians, the Scythians with pointed caps, Babylonia, Assyria, Arabia, Egypt,Armenia, Cappadocia, Lydia, the Greeks, the Scythians across the sea, Thrace, the sun hat-wearing Greeks, the Libyans, the Nubians, the men of Maka and the Carians.

no macs at all although they had been under persian sovereign!
it is assumed that its possible that the "greeks with the hat" are the macedonians since they used to wear a unique hat (which u can see some of them in our macedonian units btw)

Humm, I see that hat on the head of the Cretan archers as well
Seriously speaking, does't it strike you as rather strange that he diferentiates betwen 2 types of Greeks: the Greeks and the sun hat wearing Greeks? That happening at the time when the Greeks themselves were requiring the Macedonian king to prove his Greekness. Besides, it is not the first time a people is baptised with the name of the ruling elite: Bulgarians are a Slav people called after the Turkic tribe of the Bulgars. The French are a Romance people called after the Germanic tribe of the Franks. The Russians are a Slavic people called after a nordic (Viking) tribe. So the Persians mentions them separately from the rest of their Greek-speaking subjects (if indeed it is Macedonians it talks about).

[WhiteLion]

Don't start the anti-hellenic propaganda all over agian.
Yes we know you don't like Greeks.
Yes we know that you want to convince us that Macedonians are Romanian.
Yes we know all your cheap tricks.

At least have the desency to post under a different nickname.
This one (dromokaites nickname) has lost all kind of seriosity.

The site which reveals in the most despicable way what our romanian provocator is all about.
Personal favorite of Dromokaites.
http://www.dacia.org/history/am-mac-e.html


The last news from the south-slavic block say that albanians(illyrians) are not even white (indoeuropean) along with their "brothers" Bosniak (muslim slavs).
The fact that both Albanians and Bosniaks had war with them (serbs) does not in any way affect south-slavic credibility.

But wait a little.
Now we have new theories ( south-slavic again) saying that slavs of Greece were hellenized by force by the Byzantines.

Am I the only one seeing a pattern here??

[Dromikaites]

Don't start the anti-hellenic propaganda all over agian.
Yes we know you don't like Greeks.
Yes we know that you want to convince us that Macedonians are Romanian.
Yes we know all your cheap tricks.

At least have the desency to post under a different nickname.
This one (dromokaites nickname) has lost all kind of seriosity.

Who is "we"?

The site which reveals in the most despicable way what our romanian provocator is all about.
Personal favorite of Dromokaites.
http://www.dacia.org/history/am-mac-e.html

To me that page is the work of some Vlach nationalist.

The Vlachs are a population living in the Balkans which speak a Romance language. Or, more corectly, several Romance languages. There is a Vlach population speaking Romanian, in Serbia and in northern Bulgaria. There is another Vlach population speaking a language called Aromanian in Macedonia, Albania, Southern Bulgaria and Northern Greece. Romanian and Aromanian are two distinct languages, as close to each other as Spanish and Portuguese (this means they are mutually intelligible but distinct). Some Aromanians moved in the 19th and 20th century to Romania, in search of a better life and to escape persecutions. In several Balkan countries the Aromanians were accused of concentrating the economic power in their hands and therefore they were the favorite scapegoats for whatever problems that country had. The last wave of Aromanians arrived in Romania from Northern Greece in the late '40s at the end of the Greek civil war.

Some of the Aromanians believe they are the real descendents of the ancient Macedonians. They base their claim on the fact they did live mainly on the territory of ancient Macedonia before being expelled from there by the Greeks, in successive waves, starting with the middle of the 19th century. Besides the geographical argument they also support their claims with lingusitics pieces of evidence like those mentioned in that article. The author of that webpage is also saying the Balkan governments still restrict the rights of the Aromanians living there. I won't be able to confirm or deny that but here's a link to a webpage belonging to a Balkans Human Rights organisation based in Greece, aparently showing there are still issues regarding the minorities' rights in Greece: http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/bhr/english/index.html
Given the reaction of some Greek "partiots" like the Apostate and the Whilte Lion on this very thread, I'd say some of the claims of that human rights' organisation might be true However it is worth underlining that Greece is a member of the European Union and therefore it probably complies with most of the EU regulations regarding the minorities' human rights. Occasional hickups like the Bletsas case http://www.florina.org/html/2001/200...acquitted.html are probably the exception, not the rule.

But wait a little.
Now we have new theories ( south-slavic again) saying that slavs of Greece were hellenized by force by the Byzantines.

Am I the only one seeing a pattern here??

Yes, I think you are one of the "patriots" who sees all sorts of patterns everywhere. Warren Treadgold is considered the foremost US specialist on Byzantine history and he says that the Byzantine emperors re-collonized Greece with Greek-speaking populations from Anatolia. I don't see how that changes anything in today's Greece, since the country's citizens consider themselves Greeks anyway but it seems the "patriots" have issues with something that happened some 13 centuries ago.

[Rosacrux redux]

I think Dromi it is not worth continuing this. Your attitude seems to coincide 100% with the notions put forth by fellow forumeers, that you are systematically anti-Greek and operate on an agenda on the Makedonian issue.

This seems to be the case, so I'll stop here. Too bad this topic is already hijacked to death. I'd love to see what the resident Slavs think about Allinei's theories.

BTW Dromi, the sole thing I will grant you is the data on the genetics of the Greeks, but you'll have to wait till I find all the relevant evidence.

[Epirote]

Too bad this topic is already hijacked to death.

We can thanks Dromokaites for this.
He always wants to prove how anti-Greek he is.

I'd love to see what the resident Slavs think about Allinei's theories..

Let see.

1)The other day I saw some "new evidence" that indigenious people like the Albanians(Illyrians) actually come from Azeribaijan in Caucasus.
All that because there used to be an Azeri turkic kingdom named Albana.
Guess what!!!
Albania is not an albanian word as Albanians call themselves Shqiptar.
There is also a state in Caucasus named Georgia.
So Georgia in USA is actually a colony of Georgians caucasians.


2)Then we have the soap opera of Macedonians being Slavs.
I can imagine Alexander the Great calling names of his soldier like Zoran, Dragomir, Borislav, Radko

3)Now one newborn wannabe "historian" tells us to burn our history books and adopt the new theory that slavic colonism from the north never happened.

And all this theories emerged only after the wars in ex-Yugoslavia.

Propably the Leaders of Serbia and Fyrom wanted to re-educate their citizens to justify war crimes done in the name of "defending slavic homelands".
A small country with no real ethnic core and history wants to build an identity based on a lie like Macedonians are slavs.
The older History books proved that Serb claims are rediculus when saying things like "Kosovo heartland of Serbia" when Albanians(illyrians)" existed there since antiquety in a time when Slavic race didn't even existed.

One very good example on how history works in Serbia is this.

During Tito times history books in Serbia were talking about how "brave christian Kosovars helped the heroic Serbs in their fight against the Turks".

When Milosevic took power and multiethnic Yugoslavia died history books of Serbia changed to "Heroic Serbs fought the Battle of Kosovo alone".
All the other ethnicities that fought along the Serbs were deleted.

Now the new Serbian history books talk about how "Heroic serbs fought the Turks and the treacherous kosovars"

[Dromikaites]

Well, folks (Epirote, WhiteLion & Apostate), if you can't stand Herodotus, Strabo and Thucidides then don't blame me, blame them Also don't start topics you can't finish

I think Dromi it is not worth continuing this. Your attitude seems to coincide 100% with the notions put forth by fellow forumeers, that you are systematically anti-Greek and operate on an agenda on the Makedonian issue.

Systematically anti-Greek? As in what? My only issues are with the Greek "patriots" who see enemies everywhere. If you care to check the thread about Istanbul/Constantinople, I was bashing a Turkish "patriot" there . I admit I have issues with any type of "patriot" or religious fanatic but hey, nobody is perfect!

As for my Macedonian agenda, that would be what?

This seems to be the case, so I'll stop here. Too bad this topic is already hijacked to death. I'd love to see what the resident Slavs think about Allinei's theories.

I can tell you the Bulgarians I know don't take his theory seriously. Of course, parties like "Ataka" would probably put it to some "good use" but that's all that is to it.

[apostate]

Well, folks (Epirote, WhiteLion & Apostate), if you can't stand Herodotus, Strabo and Thucidides then don't blame me, blame them Also don't start topics you can't finish

LOL
my romanian "internationalist/cosmopolite" "friend" now i ll show u word by word who is unable to understand the ancient authors or he is enroled to corrupt the ancient sources to abck his own interest (i m really bore to do so but since u are so audacious u asked for it
....u made mistake by rushing ahead and considering yourself good whereas u are just incapbale of making a challegning debate on macedonian issue

so try to pay some good attention....

lets see what u said just before :

So what Herodotus actually says there is the Dorians passed through Macedonia before settling in Peloponnesus. So yes, while passing through they've undoubtely intermarried with the natives, but since Herodotus says they've migrated to Dryopia afterwards I would think whoever stayed behind was eventually assimilated by the natives.

however on the contrary herodotos directly says :

For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian; from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, where it took the name of Dorian.

and also elsewhere : (in book where is the description of salamis battle)

All these (the greeks consisting the Hellenic naval), except the people of Hermione were of Dorian and Macedonian stock, and had last come from Erineus and Pindus and the Dryopian region. The people of Hermione are Dryopians, driven by Heracles and the Malians from the country now called Doris

well well u seem to be badly mistaken because it (your own english translation) says clearly SETTLED
so dorians certainly settled in Macedonia (and named after that or gave their name to it)

also from the second quote it says macedonians THEMSELVES (being dorians of course) have moved down to Hellas!
so stop deliberately misinterpreting CLEAR quotes!
the dorians settled everywhere,in macedonia,dryopis,in locris and also in peloponessos (and of course later in more places like crete,rhodes,karia)
if u keep on suggesting that they migrated all together,then there wouldnt be dorians left in dryopis,doris,peloponessos and in the end all dorians would end up in Karian coasts and in colonies in Italy
:laughing: :laughing:

also not only it says that indeed the dorians SHETTLED in Macedonia after coming down from Pindos mountainchain according to herodotos words but also i may assume that Macedonia should have been maybe a BIG station of theirs before coming down to Hellas in fewer numbers and being intermingled with the much bigger (and more cultural advanced) ionic populations
as result somebody may conclude that not only they indeed have a heracleidic descend (like ALL dorians claimed to have) as they claimed in any chance,but maybe they kept the original doric lifestyle before it came in contact with the advanced ionic/pelasgian and bastarded

so if u have the least of self respect and dignity u have to apologise for trying to fabricate the meaning of the original text (your honesty is shaken here and later on in this post will collapse in pieces)

besides herodotos also aischylos suggests the same about the macedonian descend and moreover in his work there is also the mythological king of argos saying that people of his family dominate in the land from Pindos to Strymon river (that river is just east of makedon kingdom)

references :

Deukalion is the genarch of the Hellenes and father of the mythological heroes who gave birth to the numerous Hellenic tribes
the Makedon hero is son of Zeus and Deulakions daughter as Hesiodos suggests in Theogonia,written at an age which macedonians were 100% isolated from other Hellenic people
Kadmians are the people who first built the theban acropolis
Histaiotis : part of Thessaly
Ossa: mountain in north Thessaly
Olympus : mountains opposite to each other in the borders of Thessaly with Macedonia
Phtiotis : southern part of Thessaly
Dryopis :area between Parnassos mountain (Delfoi) and Thessaly
Doris : close to above
Erineus : place in doris
Malians : people who live in Malis near Thermopylai
Hermione : city in peloponnesos
Pindos : the mountainchain that crosses the southern part of haimos peninsula (Balkans)
Dorians : a Hellenic race which was dominant in many parts of classical Hellas and mingled together with other Hellenic races in many places

as a conclusion we can safely conclude that although herodotos speaks about shettling,as far as dromokaites is concerned it should mean NOT shettle

here is the ancient text -NOW PAY AS MUCH ATTENTION AS U CAN SO U FIND OUT YOUR MISTAKES AND STOP REPEATING THEM-

ΕΚ ΔΕ ΤΗΣ ΙΣΤΙΑΙΩΤΙΔΟΣ ΩΣ ΕΞΑΝΕΣΤΗ ΥΠΟ ΚΑΔΜΕΙΩΝ ΟΙΚΕΕ ΕΝ ΠΙΝΔΩ ΜΑΚΕΔΝΟΝ ΚΑΛΕΟΜΕΝΟΝ
(as u quoted yourself=driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian)

so in exact transalation word by word : (since it seems u desire to be treated as an infant)

ek de ths=from the
histiaiotidos=histiaiotis region (as i explained where it lies)
exaneste=kicked out
ypo kadmeion=by the kadmians
OIKEE=oiko means INHABIT,oikos means house (which is more homeland than a mans homeland,so imagine how strong the word is and how strongly it means that they shettled there)
en pindo=in pindos
makednon kaleomenon=being called (it means those dorians) Makednon nation

so it means : those dorians were kicked out from Histiaiotis by the Kadmians and they settled/inhabited around Pindos where they were named Makednon
harharhar

but unfortunately for u,your poor claims become even MORE laughable
u quoted the that part of the extract :

For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia

see the original text
ΕΠΙ ΜΕΝ ΓΑΡ ΔΕΥΚΑΛΙΩΝΟΣ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΟΣ ΟΙΚΕΕ ΓΗΝ ΤΗΝ ΦΘΙΩΤΙΝ

see something familiar???
OIKEE again!
but that time u translated it as correctly as inhabited!!!
whereas in the same sentence later u translate it as "PASSED THROUGH!!!"

oh pal how funny little cheater u are!
....sorry but it seems u really messed things up this time (and really easy stuff they were)

(and dont even cross your mind that dorians didnt inhabite Phtiotis because Phtiotis is considered to be both the very first homeland of dorians AND the place where firstl the name Hellen was used!!!!


-------------------

after i demonstrated how u corrupted the original ancient text (or that u cant get your brain to work decently) i go on with the rest issues

Huh? Do you care to substantiate that claim?

this was my claim :

now if u say that the royal house members were just hellenised again there is a problem,since those lads APPEAR AS ALREADY HELLENISED PEOPLE BEFORE coming on contact with the greeks,which doesnt make any sense

if somebody assumes a hypothetical hellenisation then he makes a logical failure
at least there are no evidence to support that

firstly because at the times of amyntas and the early times of his son alexandros,there are NO references of such a hellenisation to take place (through marriages,education,cultural advance etc) and also the macs are NOT in any relationships with culturally advanced greeks
but on the other hand he appears to speak greek fluently along with the greeks in his very first appearance in the foreground!

so who the hell helenised him and his family??the E.T. maybe???
how did they use greek names?
did they made them up? hahaha
how it happened that their VERY FIRST capital city AIGAI means "goats" in greek and is compatible with the myth of Karanos (first macedonian king) who built Aigai in a place which the gods showed him by leading a group of wild goats there

and besides Aigai,by the time of herodotos and thoukydides there are plenty of regional names with Hellenic root OR names that we can find elsewhere in greece!
Atalante,Dion,Methone,Europos,Therma,Arnissa,Anthemous,Heracleia,Almopia and more.....

furthermore the Hellenic dialect spoken in macedonia is full of rough and archaic greek terms! (recorded in a stratis work dialogue where a macedonian speaks by using his unique Hellenic dialect and also written down in lexicon of macedonian words) so if somebody would try to helenise them he would do it in the best way by learning them decent greek (like in later ages when they start using the attic and koine dialect)

The members of the nobility seem to have spoken Greek but that was not enough to be accepted as Hellenes by the other Greeks. So Alexandros I had to prove he is a descendent of the Argives.

he was called to prove it and he did it!
where is the prob then?
if he just spoke greek but he was a hellenised barbarian as u suggest,then the "hellanodikai" would kick him out at once

u should know that a barbarian was not even allowed to TRAIN or maybe even watch (if not accompanied by a famous greek) the games which was a strictly ethnic and racist event!
so the word of the hellanodikai is a testify for Alexandros,the royal house and his people being greek

however the greek athletes and i assume those who came from cities which had bad feeling for macedon took advantage that macs never before had the chance to take part in the games and tried to ban him because he was a strong component (he finished second close to the first)

but the fact that he was proven greek gave him the right to take part as a decent greece
thus your lies about him being hellenised fall apart again

Well, the ruling class wanted to pass as Greek when dealing with the Greeks and as Macedonian when dealing with the lower classes (like Alexander the Great when he wanted to get rid of Philotas). Again, that won't be the first time in history when the elite copies what they percieve as a superior culture. The Romans themselves copied lots from the Etruscans and the Greeks.

the incident with Philotas is very unclear and only mentioned by curtius rufus and no other source
given the contradicted actual needs that both alexandros and philotas had of such a dialogue to occur and the it can be a rhetoric addition of his in order to make the incident seem more dramatic

as i said before the whole event is a big contradiction itself!

so look u say yourself :

and as Macedonian when dealing with the lower classes (like Alexander the Great when he wanted to get rid of Philotas)

however philotas remarks that he wants to speak attic because all the people who are present speak better attic! zonk
then its really strange that somebody is accused that he cant speak his native language! second zonk
and finally its also strange that Alexandros accuses of Philotas with such stuff,however he does it in the way that the accusations can apply to Alexandros himself!!! third zonk

-no romans claimed to be greeks or etruscans AFAIK

but even if that episode is true it can be easily xplained by the example i wrote about greek and cypriot languages (an example which is way more successful than the lousy examples u give with russian tsars and germnan princesses)

and speaking of royal house,the macedonian one was insisting on being greek BY BLOOK not by supposingly adopting language,culture etc

i m pretty sure u may be familiar the 2 quotes that Alexandros speaks himself as greek before persians and before Athenians in book 5 and 9 (dont fake to be a retard or something in order force me to write it AGAIN word by word like i m talking to an infant)

well in both incidents it is stressed the race issue rather than any reference to culture :

ΕΛΛΗΝ ΑΝΗΡ ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΩΝ ΥΠΑΡΧΟΣ

ΕΛΛΗΝ ΓΕΝΟΣ ΕΙΜΙ

He, he, would you care to share with us the link to the Greek-made site which hosts those inscriptions? You did it once, for that RTR thread that got closed, so don't be shy now. If I remember correctly that same site says that the inscriptions on Macedonian monuments are very rare and the translations provided are simply names (and we know the elite was Hellenised already). The Thracian tombstones share the same characteristics. If I also remember correctly, the only long text in Greek on a Macedonian monument is the text of a Macedonian law put on display in a...Greek city, therefore for the use of the Greek subjects.

of course i had linked early coins from 5th cent and coins from Archelaos time in 400s
if i recall right it was also an inscription that wrote THESSALONIKE from a much later time

so shall i assume that u reject the archaeological findings of the coins and the names of the peoples (and all their past relatives) tombs in vergina,ALL being in decent greek and NO ONE found in non greek language

regarding the thracians,u probable refer to coins from the time that Lysimachos,a successor of Alexandros,ruled there and since his family and mates were from Hellenic decent cut coins in greek

HOWEVER all the primitive thracian coins from any era before hellenistic times are either too primitive to have anything than some strange symbols written on them OR they are written with greek letters BUT in a non greek language,unlike the macedonian ones which are in greek!

that is the same as the pelasgian inscription found in Lemnos that is written in greek letters but its in a language other than greek
its like i write greek with English letters,such as lets say buble buble "ellhnes esmen kai ou ptooumetha......" ("greeklish")
same as did various non greek italic people.....

so we all are aware that written macedonian stuff is rare HOWEVER everything found yet is in greek!

plus that Pella inscription...which is a recent and unquestionable discovery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_katadesmos

ok after u questioned the ancient writers now u question the archaeological findings
very interesting thesis indeed....

Humm, let me see: when the other side is using insults I do help that side dig its own grave. A debate should be intellectually stimulating. Insults spoil my pelasure, and so does fanatical behavior. So of course in such cases I help the guy hang himself. It's a matter of hygiene if you will.

i enjoy beating your ass (and anybodies else whether he is fanatic,softy or nothing from both) anywhere anytime
but i d enjoy it more if you was more challenging and more clever

its too bad u cant either be intellectually stimulating (well i can understand this since many people prefer a different way of stimulating) anyhow

The question you should ask yourselves is why do you feel insulted when confronted with another opinion? And why do you chose to be the first to call names? And why do you then blame the moderators for banning you or closing your threads?

every question has a simple answer if u use your brain to figure it out with reason and truth

i can call a cheater whatever names that are cleverly constructed by me i like esp when i speak with my greek mates
when the different opinion is doctrinal and enrolled then its provocative and becomes tempting to call some good names

the moderators there were inadequate enouph to be mislead (actually they were pals and were cooperating in their mods,but lets overlook that fact) by liars akin to yourself who defamed us after we exposed their attitude and their racist opinions against greeks

the thread was closed after it had so many posts that covered several pages and no one was proven able to confront my arguments
if i d like i could easily avoid tensions but from the time we found out that erebos was not who he claimed he was,that specific thread lost its purpose

in the forums and sub forums where i am the moderator,i m liberal and i prefer to let peole resolve their differences (just without tensions becoming too great) rather than close their threads and ban them


**********************

My only issues are with the Greek "patriots" who see enemies everywhere.

i myself see usually stupid people everywhere who fail to see some really simple thing rather than enemies :original:

but that may occure just because i m a couple of levels more clever than my poor enemies

Humm, I see that hat on the head of the Cretan archers as well

hem what u mean?
do u mean that the persians mean the cretans?
then no since persians never gained any rule over cretans

or that our mod (hegemonia) has made the models of macs and cretans with the same hat?
well we havent since the cretan archers wear the traditional cretan turbin and the cretan mercs wear a simple pilos helmet

Seriously speaking, does't it strike you as rather strange that he diferentiates betwen 2 types of Greeks: the Greeks and the sun hat wearing Greeks?

seriously speaking there are no seperate macs listed in dareios subjects even if they had been a loyal subject to the persians (as long as persians maintained their strength)
.....so they are included to one of the greek categories

haoma-drinking Scythians, the Scythians with pointed caps, Scythians across the sea

well he mentions more than 2 scythians anyway

as i said before the macs were a unique stock of Hellenic people and for once more the evidence along with the common logic is fully compatible with my sayings which all are proven correct ones and form very strong arguments

Bulgarians are a Slav people called after the Turkic tribe of the Bulgars. The French are a Romance people called after the Germanic tribe of the Franks. The Russians are a Slavic people called after a nordic (Viking) tribe

since u insist making comparisons with medieval,renaissanse and 19th cent European royal houses (damn i hate all those royal asses of theirs) :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
.....and thats maybe your last resort since u have failed in every other field of your arguments,i ll make u the favor to comment your comparisons

u suppose that : mac royal house is hellenised and the people (those dorians that u read before from the original text) were barbarians (non greeks) and the name of all is after the barbarian people (macs)

example about bulgrians
-irrelevant example,and its bold to identify the bulgarians as slav people or southslav

-the rus people who came down the rivers to the land we know today as russia gave their own name to the the people of other stock than theirs so its opposite than what u allege about the macs
-same for the fraggoi.....

to conclude with :
dromokaites DENIES the most ancient and original evidence available about macedonians which come from the persians,from herodotos,from aischylos,thoukydides and macedonians themselves

then dromokaites denies the archaeological findings
and lastly dromolaites denies the common logic

always he is supposed to seek for spiritual stimulation

A debate should be intellectually stimulating

on the same time he substitutes the ancient authors with his own opinions which are not testified by the original text!
isnt it a lousy attempt of fabrication,or what?

BTW Dromi, the sole thing I will grant you is the data on the genetics of the Greeks, but you'll have to wait till I find all the relevant evidence.

rosa i have granted already some good genetic studies regarding greeks eslewhere
dont expect that they will be read....dont bother to bring anything,its lost time

Also don't start topics you can't finish

after that very long post i promise that i ll be more gentle with u
..i d rather prefer to finish the topic than finish off u :laughing: :laughing:
...why would i want in the first place since we have such a great time here?


PS1 i like to continue posting in tha thread were the discussion began
since u seem to have moderators as your pals ask them to split the topic,so u d better stop repeating your suggestion towards me about open new thread

PS2 in rtr forum i made the mistake to mess with prepuberal and immature little ignorants and dealing with them soon lost is fun and became boring to me
but now i found a better case which is a long lasting joke
so since i enjoy myself well,u have zero chances of making me lose my temper so maybe thats the point where u should consider to abandon your efforts (u know well what i m talking about)
esp after i saw the site from where u are inspired i ll never get bored with u for some time !

PS3 instead of writing long posts without having something new and productive to add just copy paste your doctrine : the francophone and the vikings bluh bluh :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
place the tape,press click and here u go

-seriously now u d better start replying with considerable stronger arguments and evidence or better leave the discussion (unless u are unable of understanding really simple things that are written in ancient texts,i thing that even 12 year old boys can easily understand them though)
if u cant answer then dont bother to repeat the same irrelevant examples and your fallacies

..u are in danger that "game" will finish and u will not have scored even once! :sweatingb
-i m esp waiting proofs to back that:

They could have been Thracians or Illyrians.

PS4 about that big fraud with the human rights i know the whole case in GREAT detail but i m afraid its TOO long issue to explain it
....in few words i can say only shortly that one of them (who claim they are macs) was an employee in public electricity service,where he was propgandizing racist and anti-hellenic stuff,thus he was fired from his job
then he went to EU court where he lost....the documants of his case agianst the hellenic state i have them
....as for the helsinski watch...well thats an even bigger story

http://www.dacia.org/history/am-mac-e.html

harharhar
so here is where the Romanian "Makidon" got inspired from
harharhar

Cheers!

[Dromikaites]

He, he, long post indeed Now let's see the historic arguments one by one:
1) Herodotus: according to him the Dorians stopped for a while in Macedonia and then packed their stuff and migrated to Peloponnesus. It's normal that during their staying in Macedonia they did intermingle with the natives. However Herodotus implies the majority of them left. I gave the full paragraph precisely because it's important not to quote things out of context. Herodotus says that unlike the Pelasgians, who kept their dwelling places, the Dorians moved from place to place. When Alexander I went to the Olimpics, he had to prove he is of Greek descent because the idea of the time seems to have been that there were no Greeks left in Macedonia after the Dorians moved away. You see, things need to be put into context in order to understand them
2) As for the inscriptions we have:
- coins. The coins themselves don't say much about the ethnicity of the people using them. Think of the coins of Bactria and Indo-Bactria. The ruling class was Greek-speaking and so was a minority of the population. besides the Thracians and some Dacian/Getae rulers have also issued very good immitations of Greek coins.
- inscriptions on tombstones. Here the important thing is to know the overwhelming majority of the funeral monuments have no inscriptions. In this respect they are different from the Greek funeral monuments (most have inscriptions) but similar to the Thracian ones. There are Thracian and Dacian monuments with short inscriptions in Greek. Most likely those graves belonged to people who could speak some Greek.
- Pella katasdemos. As that Wikipedia article clearly states it, the scientists who annalised it are hesitant to claim it was written by a native Macedonian because of the diverse ethnic stucture of the population of Pella. Now my question is this: why don't scientists take it for granted that native Macedonians spoke a form of Doric Greek? And why do you and other "patriots" think you know better than the people who's job is to annalyse archeological evidence?
- The Thessaloniki decree. That was written by Macedonians in Greek indeed, but it was placed in a Greek city, for the use of the Greek subjects.

Did I miss anything?

[apostate]

look reagring peoples ethnicity,esp if they lived in ancient times,nobody can be 100% sure.....many times even for modern ethnicities is a matter of heart and perosnal kriteria and conscience....
also its clear that ancient historians are all prone to mistakes and their text could be edited in alter times
....however if we comment those that we have there are some conclusions that cannot be questioned...whether they are true or half true or to be total wrong is anothe issue

so at least dont insist with making your own interpretations at least for the exact transalation
so one thing is the transalation which cant be disputed and another is the comments which everybody can have his logical thoughts by making his own course of thinking

He, he, long post indeed Now let's see the historic arguments one by one:
1) Herodotus: according to him the Dorians stopped for a while in Macedonia and then packed their stuff and migrated to Peloponnesus.It's normal that during their staying in Macedonia they did intermingle with the natives. However Herodotus implies the majority of them left.

those are your own bold assumptions
Herodotos doesnt imply those things
Herodotos tells as that depending to the circumstances,the dorians were shettling/inhabiting all those regions
if somebody follows your course of thinking then he can assume that the dorians around dryopis and doris proivnces never actually stay there too byt instead "packed up" and moved on,while thats untrue

also although its very clear that dorians moved around a lot (and of course thats not a conclusion from that quote only),they also occupied many of those areas and stayed there like they did even as far as krete (were they asimilated the predoric populations) and rhodes/karia

since there numbers seem to be large in so far away from their supposed homeplace (Phtiotis) to succeed an assimilation of the previous population and become dominant there,those numbers should at least be similar for a fertile an drich area like macedonia which lied relatively close to the center of their actions

so do u deny that the macedon kingdom was established by those dorians?
because from those 2 quotes its clear enough that macedonians,who were akin to the dorians who eventually reached Peloponnesos,are the original founders of that kingdom

also if forgot to comment the last part of a previous quote for Herodotos book1 which was talking about the reagions which were inhabited by dorians

it ends as so :
ΚΑΙ ΕΚ ΤΗΣ ΔΡΥΟΠΙΔΟΣ ΟΥΤΩ ΕΣ ΠΕΛΟΠΟΝΝΕΣΟΝ ΕΛΘΟΝ ΔΩΡΙΚΟΝ ΕΚΛΗΘΗ
which means :
and when they (the people of dorian race) came to Peloponnesos from Dryopis,it was then named Dorian

this is also helpful to understand that :
-when dorians inhabited Peloponnesos they werent yet named as dorians,so some of those hellenic people (as Herodotos names them) settled in areas BEFORE they took the name dorians
in particular the dorians who settled in the region round Pindos where called Macedonians
therefore its not really weird why some other dorians refuse to acknowledge them as their brothers

so some dorians of Peloponnesos accept them as dorians (like Argives did when they called Archelaos to take part in Nemea athletics) however some others like Spartans (who are the most conservatives and reluctant to new issue AND mostly they have the BIGGEST RIVALRY with Argos refuse to accept the Macedonians as Greeks who are claiming Argeadic descent)

*i hope that u did know that the traditional and mostly hatred rival of Sparta in Peloponnesos was Argos,didnt u?*

-since the dorians spread in so many places where different Hellenic or pelasgian races lived there (and also in different density) differences where produced amongst the dorian identity
besides the so called northwest and macedonian unclear dialect (that group of the roughest dorian language is supported by many modern historians and also supported by the refrence of ancient historian Polybios and other findings and refrences as well) there are identified 2 other big groups of dorian dialects which have enouph differences
not to mention the various dorian elements in boiotian dialect

their unique dorian dialect (mixed probable with aiolic elements and maybe some illyrians) was ALSO unknown to the rest greeks so they were unfamiliar with it and called them barbarians since they moreover spoke quite rough by for example saying Brygai instead of Phryges or Bilippos instead of Philippos and so on and changing
also maybe "D" instead of "TH" and so one along with somewhat different endings

I gave the full paragraph precisely because it's important not to quote things out of context

i dont have any reason to to quote things out of context!
i precisely quoted the text and precisely transalated it,unlike u who didnt translated correctly it BUT u gave your personal explanation
my own explanation is analytical,backed up and more safe based in the words of the text not from stuff i made up

When Alexander I went to the Olimpics, he had to prove he is of Greek descent because the idea of the time seems to have been that there were no Greeks left in Macedonia after the Dorians moved away. You see, things need to be put into context in order to understand them

again u contradict with the text....that time its because of the quote from book 8 which clearly connects the dorians and the macedonians as akin stock of people who BOTH moved around! (since bot were dorian related)

regarding Alexandros I lets start from the begining :
firstly are u aware of when exactly did Alexandros took part in Olympics?
i wouldnt be surprised if (because we dont have till now another clue) the southerns heard for first time the macedonian dialect at Olympia when Alexandros was speaking in front of the hellanodikai in order to testify his Hellenic identity and be accepted as a greek!

when i said macs lived "isolated" consider that the macedonians were probable UNKNOWN to greeks until Hesiodos mentions them for first time in 8th cent.....
they start to become known to every day greek people just only by Herodotos works
therefore THEY CANNOT had been hellenised before that!
its actually remarkable that those people (the macs) or their nucleous of hellenic people managed to hold on their ancestroral identity and their common descend with the greeks while they remained so many years in isolation where they were coming in often contact with their illyrian rivals,along with paionians who invaded from north and the thracian populations of Macedonia

2) As for the inscriptions we have:
- coins. The coins themselves don't say much about the ethnicity of the people using them. Think of the coins of Bactria and Indo-Bactria. The ruling class was Greek-speaking and so was a minority of the population. besides the Thracians and some Dacian/Getae rulers have also issued very good immitations of Greek coins.
- inscriptions on tombstones. Here the important thing is to know the overwhelming majority of the funeral monuments have no inscriptions. In this respect they are different from the Greek funeral monuments (most have inscriptions) but similar to the Thracian ones. There are Thracian and Dacian monuments with short inscriptions in Greek. Most likely those graves belonged to people who could speak some Greek.
- Pella katasdemos. As that Wikipedia article clearly states it, the scientists who annalised it are hesitant to claim it was written by a native Macedonian because of the diverse ethnic stucture of the population of Pella. Now my question is this: why don't scientists take it for granted that native Macedonians spoke a form of Doric Greek? And why do you and other "patriots" think you know better than the people who's job is to annalyse archeological evidence?
- The Thessaloniki decree. That was written by Macedonians in Greek indeed, but it was placed in a Greek city, for the use of the Greek subjects.

-so u compare the hellenism of a land so far as baktria with the hellenism of macedonia in terms of numbers?
surely that of macedonia ought to be far bigger
-the vergina excavations brought up peoples name along with genealogic tree of theirs,all greeks btw

...if there are thracian and dacian inscriptions go ahead and bring them on!
they only that maybe could have existed may come from pieces of weaponry being exported to thrace from greece
...its really bold though to attempt to compare thracians with macedonians...u wont find any evidence to back u
maybe if somebody discovers a sanctuary lets say like macedonian "Dion" then u can come back with more arguments

-katadesmos : surely things are not clear enouph so that someone can speak for sure HOWEVER its a clear evidence with a significance which scientists and universities are considering the way its quoted in that article,which if u read u will see that even they are hesitant they consider that this is a native language!
....also from the article and some other data it seems that the doric in this inscription are DIFFERENT than doric used by other dorians,which is an evidence which supports that this is a regional northgreek doric language
also it seems its more than one such pieces found...

-Thessalonike.....a greek name itself....the name of Alexandros halfsister who for her the city was named after....(thessalia + nike/victory).....anyway

And why do you and other "patriots" think you know better than the people who's job is to annalyse archeological evidence?

maybe u and the other "internationalists" know better than scientists and make up your own conclusions?
...i think u should read more carefully the scientists comments who dont exclude anything and dont seem to share your thesis
maybe u were around in ancient Pella and u had a close look so u dont need the contemporary archaiological findings from the area!

however at least if the readings were so much against me opinion,i would not keep on reacting the way u do
(lets say that strong evidence of macedonian non greek realted language showed up,i d shut up immediately )


....now regarding your favorite term "patriot" ,it seems that 99% of the greeks are "patriots"
..lucky us :laughing: :laughing:

btw the older found macedonian inscriptions u can see if u visit Aiane museum in Hellas and they are "ippomaxas" and "arpalos" which means fight on horse and something like predator or attractive
they are dated before 500s...though Elimeia wasexactly included in macedon kingdom by that time yet.....

Did I miss anything?

i dont know
i forgot some parts harhar.....but i do remember that i already have mentioned twice the 2 incidents that Alexandros speaks of his greekness (as far as race and blood are concerned wihtout mentioning cultural or other issues related with hypothetical hellenisation) and u havent yet commented

....along that u should prove your sayings that macs could be thracians or illyrians
its obvious that there are no evidence at all,while somebody can argue for quite a long time about evidence that support their "greekness"

[Farnan]

Unless people start to debate civily, this topic will be closed.

[Farnan]

Because this issue has current political implications in the relationship between the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedon and Greece, I am thinking of moving it to the Mudpit, to allow others to read it and analyze its political impact.

It has been done, under the permission of Seleukos...

[Obi Wan Asterix]

Because this issue has current political implications in the relationship between the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedon and Greece, I am thinking of moving it to the Mudpit, to allow others to read it and analyze its political impact.

It has been done, under the permission of Seleukos...

I work in the field, and since there are many Albanians and Greeks on the site (including one of the site moderators) I think this can only belong in the mudpit.

I am slavic genetically. But I am always opposed to these ethnic labellings, as mixing has been ongoing for thousands of years, and nation-states are modern political and phylosophical creatioins that to me mean much less than to most contemporaries.

[Kanaric]

I'd love to see what the resident Slavs think about Allinei's theories..

I'm slovenian, and I can easily see this is BS, probably some sort of propoganda.

[Tacticalwithdrawal]

we interupt this thread to bring a message from your moderator:

folks, having seen the history of this thread I'll be keeping a close eye on it, please keep it civil as it's an interesting discussion and I'd hate to have to hand out glasgow kisses all round

that was a message from your moderator, buy MODLAX, the treatment that keeps your posts flowing freely and prevents attacks of the Moderators.

and now, back to the thread.