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  1. #1

    Default If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    This seams to be what conservatives want, but what would happen if it were actually applied?

    My guess is that the unions would become all powerful [more so than in the 70’s]! Imagine if farmers and raw material providers got together as cooperatives and collectives of such, then charge what they can get, you would have no common agricultural policy as that is govt getting involved, all the mechanisms of capitalism would break down and the workers would force wealth redistribution in a massive way.

    It seams right-wingers don’t really account for we conniving left-wingers! So next time you see cameron on the news saying that its up to people and businesses what they should do, and that govt shouldn’t be involved, then remember what that would actually mean. in short it only works in favour of the elite [and right wingers generally] as long as bosses are the ones with power and unions are curtailed by government intervention ~ police and law stopping them from being effective.

    So bring it on conservatives, but remember to contrive it to your own ends or we will make it hurt your bottoms.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  2. #2
    Claudius Gothicus's Avatar Petit Burgués
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    Default Re: If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    My guess is that if conservatives would have their way we would go all the way back to the days of...

    Socialists vs Marginalists

    Menger vs Marx

    Workers vs Entrepreneurs

    For the safety and health of modern society those days should never return.

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  3. #3

    Default Re: If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    What are you getting at exactly? If socialism were to triumph in a free society, well fine. As long as no force is used I don't care what economic system we have. So Quetzalcoatl, if you believe a laissez-faire society will lead to socialism, great, we both have an enemy in the state, we can work together.

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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Leary View Post
    What are you getting at exactly? If socialism were to triumph in a free society, well fine. As long as no force is used I don't care what economic system we have. So Quetzalcoatl, if you believe a laissez-faire society will lead to socialism, great, we both have an enemy in the state, we can work together.
    Yeah this is it. I really struggle to find disagreement with socialists if they accept what happens in a free and fair society. If socialism happens and co-operatives become the norm I am fine with that.

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    Panzerbear's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzalcoatl View Post
    If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    This seams to be what conservatives want, but what would happen if it were actually applied?

    My guess is that the unions would become all powerful [more so than in the 70’s]! Imagine if farmers and raw material providers got together as cooperatives and collectives of such, then charge what they can get, you would have no common agricultural policy as that is govt getting involved, all the mechanisms of capitalism would break down and the workers would force wealth redistribution in a massive way.
    it is exactly the other way around in non-govt world.

    with absence of government regulations all unions will be destroyed before conception. it is much easier to fire and back-fill 100 workers in a factory than deal with annoying pest that rots collective from within.
    usually (contrary to popular belief) the factory workers' labor is unskilled and it is very easy substitute one guy for another one from the street. unemployment is always there and deadbeats will always want a job.

    in addition, you know that the workers would have an incentive "to cheat" and break free from the union agreements, given the danger of being unemployed, do you? in fact, one can even make new workers sign the agreements that they wave their right to unionize to begin with.
    Last edited by Panzerbear; December 24, 2010 at 07:54 AM.

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  6. #6

    Default Re: If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    merry Chrismass everyone

    What are you getting at exactly? If socialism were to triumph in a free society, well fine. As long as no force is used I don't care what economic system we have. So Quetzalcoatl, if you believe a laissez-faire society will lead to socialism, great, we both have an enemy in the state, we can work together.
    Yeah this is it. I really struggle to find disagreement with socialists if they accept what happens in a free and fair society. If socialism happens and co-operatives become the norm I am fine with that.
    Two points really, I think the conservatives think that small govt means a free reign for entrepreneurs/bosses/corporations/the city etc, but that only happens where the power of unions are suppressed. If you are against socialism [?] surely you wouldn’t want a situation where that could happen?

    Secondly if you take away central democratic power, you simply replace it with other perhaps decentralised powers. It may be so that unions would win the battle or if businesses got together maybe they could oust the unions themselves, but either way we the people wouldn’t have much say in it!

    I agree I don’t like the state any more than you chaps, but I am dubious about removing governmental power and democracy, ~ even though I don’t particularly like it. I also wonder if the state is part of the governments powerbase, esp labour. If we reduce the state the EU and financial institutions simply get more power [& unions].

    it is exactly the other way around in non-govt world.

    with absence of government regulations all unions will be destroyed before conception. it is much easier to fire and back-fill 100 workers in a factory than deal with annoying pest that rots collective from within.
    usually (contrary to popular belief) the factory workers' labor is unskilled and it is very easy substitute one guy for another one from the street. unemployment is always there and deadbeats will always want a job.
    in addition, you know that the workers would have an incentive "to cheat" and break free from the union agreements, given the danger of being unemployed, do you? in fact, one can even make new workers sign the agreements that they wave their right to unionize to begin with.
    It is easy to sack 100 workers yes but the unions have never worked on such a small scale, those workers belong to a national union of ‘x’ which is connected to other unions. For example if you own a few shops sack the workers and refuse to employ any union members, then your suppliers would also be in a union and they would stop your supplies. It all works in a big chain, its just that since the 80’s govt has stepped in and suppressed union power, forcibly removing pickets etc. in my mind unions would take over everything without govt intervention which includes the laws designed to supplant their power.

    remember that unions already exist, and when they did not they found a way to get power. it was at first the best thing that ever happened to society.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  7. #7
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    Without Unions we'd only have Robotic labor...

    Theocratic Feudal Technocratic Plutocracy has a nice ring to it.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Serious.
    The Earth is inhabited by billions of idiots.
    The search for intelligent life continues...

  8. #8

    Default Re: If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    Without Unions we'd only have Robotic labor...

    Theocratic Feudal Technocratic Plutocracy has a nice ring to it.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Serious.

    all hail the omnissiah!

  9. #9

    Default Re: If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    Without Unions we'd only have Robotic labor...

    Theocratic Feudal Technocratic Plutocracy has a nice ring to it.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Serious.
    If we only had robot labor that would be paradise, nobody would have to work... It would be a classless society. Better get rid of unions then, achieve communism.

  10. #10

    Default Re: If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    Any economy will always need a certain degree of administration.

    However, anyone trying to control the economy completely, who is not a genious and a mastermind, is doomed to fail.
    "He who wishes to be the best for his people, must do that which is necessary - and be willing to go to hell for it."

    Let the Preservation, Advancement and Evolution of Mankind be our Greater Good.


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  11. #11

    Default Re: If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzalcoatl View Post
    If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    This seams to be what conservatives want, but what would happen if it were actually applied?
    It has happened and that is precisely the reason why the 2008 Financial Crisis got out of control because all the new financial derivatives were virtually all completely unregulated. And we all know what happened:

    Nouriel Roubini:
    "Bankers and investors on Wall Street and in financial institutions were greedy, arrogant and reckless in their risk taking and build-up of leverage because they were compensated based on short term profits. As a result, they generated toxic loans – subprime mortgages and other mortgages and loans – that borrowers could not afford and then packaged these mortgages and loans into toxic securities – the entire alphabet soup of structured finance products, so-called “SIVs” like MBSs – Mortgage-Backed Securities, or CDOs – Collateralized Debt Obligations -- and even CDOs of CDOs. These were new, complex, exotic, non-transparent, non-traded, marked-to-model rather than market-to-market and mis-rated by the rating agencies. Indeed, the rating agencies were also culprits as they had massive conflicts of interest: they made most of their profits from mis-rating these new instruments and being paid handsomely by the issuers. Also, the regulators and supervisors were asleep at the wheel as the ideology in Washington for the last decade was one of laissez faire “Wild West” capitalism with little prudential regulation and supervision of banks and other financial institutions. "
    "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "We have a protractor."

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  12. #12
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    Laissez Faire Wild West Fiat Capitalism would be more precise. Fractional reserve banking at its worst where banks can operate with impunity with no fear of a bank run because they are taking wild dangerous risks.

    It certainly isn't just anarchists that disagree with Fractional Reserve banking. Deposit insurance and Banks creating money while protected in a corporatist fashion by governments in this peculiar public private partnership distorts the market and allows these crazy risks. This was first pointed out to me by an accountant friend who is certainly no anarchist but he predicted this problem coming and that it will certainly get worse.

    This might prove interesting for those with the time to read it

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The most remarkable aspect of PIMCO managing director Paul McCulley’s recent speech on the nature of banking is not its conclusion, seemingly radical in its emphasis banking is and will forever be a public-private partnership. This conclusion follows quite logically from its assumptions. The assumptions themselves are wherein the problematic facets of the argument lie—mainly the assumption that fractional reserve banking (FRB) is de facto necessary and any imitators should be reigned in to a regulatory structure that encompasses (or at least should encompass) FRB. What is strange is that McCulley never states that FRB is necessary or why it should be necessary—merely that it is, and thus should be regulated, given the existence of a central bank and deposit insurance, both necessary bastions to prevent bank runs:

    The essence, or the genius of banking, not just now, the last century or the century before that, but since time immemorial, is that the public’s ex-ante demand for assets that trade on demand at par is greater than the public’s ex-post demand for these types of assets. Let me repeat this, because this is a first principle: The public’s ex-ante demand for liquidity at par is greater than the public’s ex-post demand. Therefore, we can have banking systems because they can meet the ex-ante demand, but never have to pony up ex-post. In turn, the essence or the genius of banking is maturity, liquidity and quality transformation: holding assets that are longer, less liquid and of lower quality than the funding liabilities.
    A second principle: A banking system is solvent only if it is believed by the public to be a going concern. By definition, if the public’s ex-post demand for liquidity at par proves to be equal to its ex-ante demand, a banking system is insolvent because a banking system ends up, at its core, promising something it cannot deliver.
    The conclusion of the second principle should at least cause a modicum of hesitation: an assertion that the banking system simply cannot deliver on its promise, given the mismatch between maturities, valuations and liquidity on its assets and liabilities. However, as McCulley wisely notes, the public’s demand varies pre- to post-deposit. They require immediate liquidity but after buying a deposit, rarely act on it en masse or for their entire deposit. Jesus Huerta de Soto has an exhaustive study of the rise of FRB in the Western world and interprets it as a gradual subversion of the initial deposit contract, wherein banks would agree to hold, at all times, the entirety of any specie (typically gold or silver) deposited. The deposit contract began to break down as bankers succumbed to the temptation to surreptitiously lend out deposited specie as they realized, as McCulley noted, the ex-ante and ex-post demand for deposit redemption was substantially different. Depositors had a low coincidence of redemption demand unless and thus bankers could often accomplish the ruse, especially as a bank grew and coincidence of redemption between depositors became gradually lower with their increased numbers.

    100% Reserve banks gradually gave way to FRBs as the public and, more importantly, governments began to allow the FRB deposit contract to exist. Governments generally were lenient to banks as the state recognized them as an effective way to extract the savings of the populace in the form of loans from banks to the government. However, runs on banks were a periodic and disastrous occurrence and more or less every bank that practiced FRB eventually collapsed due to a run. An instructive example is the Bank of Amsterdam, which initially maintained 100% reserves for a 150 year period:

    To all intents and purposes the Bank of Amsterdam maintained a 100- percent cash reserve. This allowed it, in all crises, to satisfy each and every request for cash withdrawal of deposited florins. Such was true in 1672, when panic caused by the French threat gave rise to a massive withdrawal of money from Dutch banks, most of which were forced to suspend payments (as occurred with the Rotterdam and Middelburg banks). The Bank of Amsterdam was the exception, and it logically had no trouble returning deposits. (de Soto, p. 98)
    The Bank of Amsterdam did eventually begin to violate the 100% reserve principle, losing its prominence due to this fact and the fact that England was replacing the Dutch in commercial power:

    Unfortunately, in the 1780s the Bank of Amsterdam began to systematically violate the legal principles on which it had been founded, and evidence shows that from the time of the fourth Anglo-Dutch war, the reserve ratio decreased drastically, because the city of Amsterdam demanded the bank loan it a large portion of its deposits to cover growing public expenditures. (de Soto, p. 106)
    Clearly evident is influence of government upon the bank to make fractional reserve loans in order to wrest citizens’ savings in order to finance a war.

    Runs on FRBs then occur for two primary reasons. Usually the loans the bank has made come into question, resulting in concerns about the banks solvency. Depositors know the bank’s cash holdings cannot cover all the deposits but rest assured if the bank’s loans only default in small percentages, the bank should be able to handle a regular cycle of redemptions. However, if the loans start to default in high percentage, this ability is called into question and depositors attempt to redeem while the bank’s cash holdings are still available.

    Secondarily, a bank could be exposed to a large depositor, who, whether because they themselves experience financial trouble or merely wish to make a large long-term investment, withdraw their deposits which the bank cannot handle. This is less of a concern since a bank could prevent exposure to such depositors by limiting deposit amounts—depositors were likely to do the same by spreading a their large deposit demand across multiple banks.

    McCulley notes that these issues have been experienced by bankers since the existence of banking, meaning specifically FRB[1]. Moreover, McCulley reiterates in his speech that: “Demand deposits, conceptually, have a one-day maturity. But in aggregate, they have a perpetual maturity. So, therefore, banking can engage in maturity, liquidity and quality transformation: a very profitable business. Banks can issue, essentially, perpetual liabilities – call them demand deposits – and invest them in longer dated, illiquid loans and securities, earning a net interest margin. It’s a really, really sweet business.” This is true inasmuch as the banking system is governed by a central bank which clears for all member institutions and can provide liquidity should one bank experience a substantial amount of redemptions. More importantly, the existence of deposit insurance calmed the public’s rise in demand for liquidity of deposits, namely in times of crisis:

    In order for that business not to be prone to panics and, therefore, financial crises, you needed to have deposit insurance. Deposit insurance, by definition, cannot come about as if by the invisible hand. Deposit insurance cannot be, cannot be a private sector activity. It is a public good. The deposit insurer must be a subsidiary of the fiscal authority. And in extremis, the monetary authority can monetize the liabilities of the fiscal authority. I’m not saying that pejoratively. I’m not being pejorative at all. Just descriptive. Bottom line: Deposit insurance is inherently a public good.
    Access to the Fed’s balance sheet is also inherently a public good, because the Federal Reserve is the only entity that can print currency. So essentially, banking has two public goods associated with it. Therefore, naturally, it should be regulated.
    There can be little disagreement that if deposit insurance is offered by the government, that regulation must follow or banks would merely take reckless advantage of the subsidy knowing that their deposits were always backstopped. The banks would be able to shift risk to the provider of deposit insurance while reaping any of the potential rewards of speculative loans. McCulley then criticizes the “shadow banking system”, which he refers to as any product that mimics an FRB deposit but is unregulated, for instance, money market funds:

    Banking is inherently a joint venture between the private sector and the public sector. Banking inherently cannot be a solely capitalistic affair. I put that on the table as an article of fact. And, in fact, speaking at a Minsky Conference, I know I’m preaching to the converted. Big bank and big government are part of our catechism. And, in fact, that’s exactly what came to the fore to save us from Depression 2.0.

    And I think the first principle is that if what you’re doing is banking, de jure or de facto, then you are in a joint venture with the public sector. Period. If you’re issuing liabilities that are intended to be just as good as a bank deposit, then you will be considered functionally a bank, regardless of the name on your door. That’s the first principle.
    Number two, if you engage in these types of activities – call it banking, without making a big distinction here between conventional banking and shadow banking, as Paul Krugman intoned this morning – in such size that you pose systemic risk, you will have higher mandated capital requirements and you will be supervised by the Federal Reserve.
    None of this is tremendously debatable given the unspoken assumptions but it is notable that McCulley never makes the case of why FRB is necessary or why the public should be extorted via an ultimately taxpayer-funded insurance bulwark in order to gird its existence. Given the last quote and what scholars analyze as the gradual move away from 100% reserve banking, one can imagine McCulley several hundred years ago (or de Soto in the present) demanding that any institution calling itself a bank and offering deposits much be made to have the 100% reserve ratio given the risks to FRB and creating a shadow banking system that promises the immediate liquidity inherent in the 100% reserve banks but “unregulated” by the 100% reserve requirement.

    A FRB deposit may not be objected to if it is distinguished legally from a full reserve demand deposit[2]. To the point, an FRB security could likely not be called a “deposit” as such but rather a “Fractional Reserve Demand Share” or something of the like. FRDS would function in much the same manner as either money market mutual fund shares or similar type instruments, with redemptions handled by the portfolio which would maintain some level of cash to deal with them.

    If such a legal separation is possible, it might also then remove the FRDS’s current subterfuge of mismatching ex-ante liquidity with ex-post liquidity reality. Holders would likely be much more cognizant of the possible lack of liquidity, although they could become complacent over sustained periods of plentiful liquidity—this is similar to what occurred with auction rate preferred shares, while complacency could be a problem with any financial product. In this revised separation between 100% reserves and FRDS, there would be no government mandated deposit insurance[3], nor a central bank. The FRDS would be managed as any other investment fund, albeit with more generous liquidity terms.

    The necessity of fractional reserve banking as currently constructed is, once again, largely assumed in discourse, though there are supposedly well and good reasons for it. Most look to FRB’s ability to expand the money supply and credit availability to support economic growth. However if such credit is created by an obfuscation on the part of bankers, aided by a direct subsidy by the federal government, it calls into question how effective this credit is. The existence of such a blatant subsidy would logically precipitate an overabundance of credit, or credit on artificially easy terms, or both. If such is the case, even if it would contribute to some economic expansion, that growth may be largely artificial itself, not conforming to either the populace’s desire for further investment or time preference. This is a crux of de Soto’s argument, although I would submit that investment would still be funneled properly if there was a legal separation between a 100% demand deposit and a FRDS, as well as the elimination of government FRDS insurance and the central bank.

    What, in essence, support for an FRB regime that engages in legal obfuscation and endorses a “public-private” venture between banking and the government with attendant regulation to protect the banking system’s assets is essentially support for a corporatist policy. This policy extracts the savings of a reluctant public who demands more liquidity than is available for certain investment products, particularly in the long-term loans made by the banking system[4], in order to invest in state motivated projects[5]. While the system isn’t completely socialist, the corporatist nature is similarly as detrimental as it will likely lead to overinvestment beyond the desires of a public—what are essentially transfers wealth to certain parties via easier loan terms than would normally be available.

    The subtlety of the system is its genius—there is nothing to prevent someone from creating their own 100% reserve deposit by storing money in a safe deposit box, for instance. However, the subsidized product benefitting from a legal obfuscation could easily crowd alternative products out of the market. A notable exception was in the 1970s during the rise of money market funds that only came about because of a mandated cap on the payment of interest on deposits while money markets were able to gain higher rates in that inflationary decade.

    In the end, the argument for the current FRB system, whether one argues for more regulation or more “free-market” mechanisms, will always be an argument for a massive corporatist structure as long as it presupposes the existence of a legal obfuscation between 100% reserves demand deposits and FRDS, fractional reserve deposit insurance and a central bank. This structure will likely not produce the balanced outcomes[6] of an alternative free-banking system, even outside of any credit excess, and, as the current crisis well demonstrates, will likely be abused by the parties supported by it, despite the efforts of regulators.

    [1] 100% reserve banks would have had no such problem with a typical bank run. However, a 100% reserve bank could have difficulty redeeming specie if its deposits were destroyed or lost by a natural disaster or fire or stolen in a bank robbery. These issues could be deferred with fire, disaster or theft insurance which would function more clearly as insurance than what is now deposit insurance. Deposit insurance is, in essence, a combination of a liquidity backstop with a credit-default swap. While theoretically possible, it differs notably from property-casualty insurance.

    [2] There is large disagreement within the ASE on whether a fractional reserve bank can legally exist; I believe de Soto falls in the camp that it is impossible.

    [3] It wouldn’t be required: if people wanted full liquidity, they could opt for a demand deposit; if they were willing to undergo some liquidity, as well as credit, risk, they would opt for the FRDS.

    [4] As opposed to short-term loans of money-market funds, which still aren’t fully liquid as a 100% reserve and carry some credit risk

    [5] I note “state motivated” since regulation governing what type of investments are allowed with bank funds will be driven by a government process. Regulatory capture is certainly possible under such a regime, as we have witnessed.

    [6] That is, balance between investor’s time preferences and liquidity desire and borrowers’ desire for loanable funds on certain terms to fund a project

  13. #13
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    If you dont give the people the welfare then the people remove you from power, ala Russian Revolution.

  14. #14

    Default Re: If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    chilon

    It has happened and that is precisely the reason why the 2008 Financial Crisis got out of control because all the new financial derivatives were virtually all completely unregulated. And we all know what happened:
    that’s true, although unions have their power cubed by govt involvement, so really when govt speaks of not getting involved they don’t mean that for the ordinary man. There has to be accountability so how would we get that without govt? the city could regulate itself but seams to not want to. unions however wouldnt have any say on this very central level, surely only govt can do that.

    Perhaps we could change all the financial institutions so they are directly related to what they get involved in [cooperative collectives with a central local bank etc], but my problem is that money and expertise would walk, and generally we are ‘left with the wolf at the door’! ~ unless you do something like that worldwide, then the rest of the world wouldn’t like it and would seek to destroy it, not invest in it etc.

    Britain certainly cannot work at the same level without being very much involved in the global system.

    ------

    DC

    Can you put this part of your quoted post in English please… [it looks interesting but uses unusual language]

    “Let me repeat this, because this is a first principle: The public’s ex-ante demand for liquidity at par is greater than the public’s ex-post demand. Therefore, we can have banking systems because they can meet the ex-ante demand, but never have to pony up ex-post. In turn, the essence or the genius of banking is maturity, liquidity and quality transformation: holding assets that are longer, less liquid and of lower quality than the funding liabilities“.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzalcoatl View Post
    chilon



    that’s true, although unions have their power cubed by govt involvement, so really when govt speaks of not getting involved they don’t mean that for the ordinary man. There has to be accountability so how would we get that without govt? the city could regulate itself but seams to not want to. unions however wouldnt have any say on this very central level, surely only govt can do that.

    Perhaps we could change all the financial institutions so they are directly related to what they get involved in [cooperative collectives with a central local bank etc], but my problem is that money and expertise would walk, and generally we are ‘left with the wolf at the door’! ~ unless you do something like that worldwide, then the rest of the world wouldn’t like it and would seek to destroy it, not invest in it etc.

    Britain certainly cannot work at the same level without being very much involved in the global system.

    ------

    DC

    Can you put this part of your quoted post in English please… [it looks interesting but uses unusual language]
    “Let me repeat this, because this is a first principle: The public’s ex-ante demand for liquidity at par is greater than the public’s ex-post demand. Therefore, we can have banking systems because they can meet the ex-ante demand, but never have to pony up ex-post. In turn, the essence or the genius of banking is maturity, liquidity and quality transformation: holding assets that are longer, less liquid and of lower quality than the funding liabilities“.

    The publics ex-ante (before the event) demand for liquidity is greater than the publics ex-post (after the fact) demand. Therefore we can have banking systems because they can meet the usual demands, but never have to pony up ex-post (after the crisis, because government provides capital). In turm, the essence, or the genius of banking is maturity, liquidity and quality transformation: holding assets that are longer, less liquid and of lower quality than the funding liabilities (they profit off long term investments and holdings while the government pays for the short term liquidity needs and investment risks on the back of the public).

    The last part may be contentious but I'll debate it.

  16. #16

    Default Re: If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    Thanks DC

    The publics ex-ante (before the event) demand for liquidity is greater than the publics ex-post (after the fact) demand. Therefore we can have banking systems because they can meet the usual demands, but never have to pony up ex-post (after the crisis, because government provides capital). In turm, the essence, or the genius of banking is maturity, liquidity and quality transformation: holding assets that are longer, less liquid and of lower quality than the funding liabilities (they profit off long term investments and holdings while the government pays for the short term liquidity needs and investment risks on the back of the public).

    The last part may be contentious but I'll debate it.
    So really we want banks and govt to be one in the same? such that the banks would have to consider ponying up ~ well every area of benefit/deficit would be within the same body. Or better still remove govt from the equation, otherwise it gets a bit nationalistic and protectionist.

    If all a nations finances are considered into the same pool, then govt would only need to get involved in terms of restrictions. However without govt it could potentially self-regulate?
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  17. #17
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzalcoatl View Post
    Thanks DC



    So really we want banks and govt to be one in the same? such that the banks would have to consider ponying up ~ well every area of benefit/deficit would be within the same body. Or better still remove govt from the equation, otherwise it gets a bit nationalistic and protectionist.

    If all a nations finances are considered into the same pool, then govt would only need to get involved in terms of restrictions. However without govt it could potentially self-regulate?
    I will say this, every attempt at privatising with a public private partnership ends badly and banking is another example.

    Personally I would like to see free banking but I cannot ever forsee a situation where that could actually arise. That is the ideal system.

    Other than that I'd like to see full reserve banking. It only became unfeasible partly because of trade changes in the geographic area balanced with the idea that fiat banking was coming into existence. Fiat banking allows for greater growth but how much is unfeasible asset bubble growth that is the business cycle of growth and contraction. It doesn't actually seem better than slower growth that doesn't arise in debt and rely on consumer growth.

  18. #18

    Default

    Timothy Leary

    I am above all, against violence, and for the spontaneous evolution of society. I am personally against the idea of socialism, but I shall not use a gun to stop it from happening.
    Sounds like a new kind of socialism to me ~ kinda like the net. I think many of us want a new kind of socialism rather than the old kind. to me its more beneficial if the companies i deal with and which supply me are on my side, bla bla. in many cases middlemen and the taxman make things dearer, etc.

    Of course I am no conservative but I have a feeling this thread was never directed at conservatives to begin with. Where do you find these conservatives talking about government leaving us alone? I see them talking about how we need to bomb innocent people overseas, how we need to raid houses and shoot people's dogs to stop some 16 year old kid from getting high, how we need to stop 2 people who love each other from getting married because some antiquated book says it's wrong. I realize you meant they claim to support a free market, but honestly you can't draw a line between economic and social issues. Anyone who stops people from voluntarily exchanging values, be they material or spiritual, is the same in my eyes, a tyrant. Whether he calls himself a conservative, a liberal or a socialist is irrelevant.
    Well the thread was partly aimed at conservatives as well as to open up other questions, the tories often say on the news or political debate shows, things like ‘its their business’ referring to a business in the private sector [I watch a lot of news and Bloomberg etc so I guess I am picking up on a general theme]. I am surprised you don’t get that impression? The tea party as conservatives I know, talk about self reliance and individualism, so I just take it as a general theme that right wingers are always saying.

    I agree with the other points, in the main.

    ...though marriage can give other rights and entitlements e.g. to adoption, and then it is another issue. Its probably best to cross one bridge then the next, so marriage is fine as long as it doesn’t entitle people to other things as a given. That even if I agree that e.g. gay couples should be able to get married and adopt.
    not sure their, a child is involved and many wouldnt want that but have it put upon them etc.

    I will say this, every attempt at privatising with a public private partnership ends badly and banking is another example.
    Personally I would like to see free banking but I cannot ever forsee a situation where that could actually arise. That is the ideal system.
    Well there would be free banking in the system I have been proposing for ages ~ the cooperative collective. Maybe I had not added this rather critical aspect but essentially we replace councils with groups of businessmen in a locality, a bit like a dragons den but where they are voted into power over the regional and multiregional banks [inc, formerly central banks]. This group then runs the regional bank and administers moneys to new and existing businesses at no interest ~ because they benefit from those businesses prospering, that is; the banks money pool grows and all the moneys from those businesses go into that pool rather than the pool of the particular business. Seams like a win-win situation to me, growth without debt and one where its in everyone’s interest to help each other out.

    …obviously its not perfect for all businesses in terms of growth, some businesses cannot or don’t need growth.
    Last edited by Viking Prince; December 26, 2010 at 06:15 PM. Reason: consec posts
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  19. #19

    Default Re: If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    Two points really, I think the conservatives think that small govt means a free reign for entrepreneurs/bosses/corporations/the city etc, but that only happens where the power of unions are suppressed. If you are against socialism [?] surely you wouldn’t want a situation where that could happen?
    I am above all, against violence, and for the spontaneous evolution of society. I am personally against the idea of socialism, but I shall not use a gun to stop it from happening. Of course I am no conservative but I have a feeling this thread was never directed at conservatives to begin with. Where do you find these conservatives talking about government leaving us alone? I see them talking about how we need to bomb innocent people overseas, how we need to raid houses and shoot people's dogs to stop some 16 year old kid from getting high, how we need to stop 2 people who love each other from getting married because some antiquated book says it's wrong. I realize you meant they claim to support a free market, but honestly you can't draw a line between economic and social issues. Anyone who stops people from voluntarily exchanging values, be they material or spiritual, is the same in my eyes, a tyrant. Wheter he calls himself a conservative, a liberal or a socialist is irrelevant.

  20. #20
    YuriVII's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: If govt didn’t get involved in ‘our’ business affairs’?

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    If you dont give the people the welfare then the people remove you from power, ala Russian Revolution.
    Yeah, think of social reforms as "Revolution insurance"

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