Should Fermanagh be part of Northern Ireland?

[removeduser_4536284751384]

It has a nationalist majority after all, and voted for Sinn Fein in 2007. It's the one county that doesn't touch Lough Neagh.

I appreciate it's a little late to change it now, but I think the northern Irish state should have stuck to the five counties surrounding Lough Neagh in 1922. What do you think?

[Azog 150]

I would like to point out that Catholic and Nationalist aren't mutually exclusive, just like Protestant and Unionist aren't. Anyway, I have been reading up on the Anglo-Irish War and the Irish Civil War recently and its a very interesting time. I will post in greater detail tomorrow.






Edit: Well back when Ireland was first partitioned feelings were obviously running very high in Ireland. You've got to remember that before World War 1 happened there was 100,000 Unionists and an equal number of Nationalists preparing to take up arms over the Home rule Bill. World War 1 potentially saved Ireland from Civil War(At least temporarily).

These feelings didn't disappear during the Anglo-Irish War (and if anything got worse) where the stakes were even higher. Unionists were opposed enough as it was to the dividing of Ulster. Sir James Craig (The Unionist leader) quite famously declared after the splitting off of 3 of the 9 counties of Ulster that "What we have now we hold, and we will hold against all combinations" in reference to the 'threat' of loosing even more counties to the Republic.

And in some ways Unionists had a point. Republican plans revolved around Northern Ireland being reduced to the handful of counties with a Unionist/Protestant majority, which would be unsustainable and hence seek reunification or be forced to reunify. Couple this with the IRA offensive in the North in which both the Pro-Treaty and Anti-Treaty IRA in the South were cooperating over (Despite the Civil War)- both Lynch and Collins, who were bitterly opposed in the Civil War, had entered joint negotiations and planning over this Northern IRA offensive. They also helped plan the 'Belfast Boycott' which was basically an aggressive economic move to further try to influence the North and persuade them to join with the South.

In reality this just further alienated Unionists, and the IRA offensive just helped fuel sectarian killings in the North (By both sides- between 1920 and 1922 259 Catholics and 164 Protestants were murdered, and thousands from both sides were chased or burned from their homes). Couple this with 'revenge murders' against Protestants in Southern Ireland, mainly by Anti-Treatyites. Southern Protestants were becoming increasingly isolated, and between 1922-1926 34% of them had fled the country after a spate of killings and arson attacks on their homes. All of this just made Unionists more aggressive, and you can be sure that they would have opposed, probably through the use of arms, any attempts to further reduce what is now known as Northern Ireland.

Its certainly a complicated situation, and no one in Ireland (North or South) did anything to help it

[Gromovnik]

I hope that the entire Ireland will be unified one day, so I'd say no, it shouldn't be a part of Northern Ireland.

[Azog 150]

^^You'd like to see the North plunged back into violence? Because that would be the inevitable outcome of the North rejoining Ireland with anything other then a Nationalist majority (And even then, knowing Ireland and its history, it would probably still dissolve into violence)

[removeduser_4536284751384]

^^You'd like to see the North plunged back into violence? Because that would the inevitable outcome of the North rejoining Ireland with anything other then a Nationalist majority (And even then, knowing Ireland and its history, it would probably still dissolve into violence)

I expected someone to suggest Ireland joining the Union by now .

Perhaps there would be a similar result, but I think there would be no violence, because there just isn't the same fervour down here that there is up there.

[CiviC]

Repartition of NI was envisaged by British Governement many times, most seriously in 1974 as a "last ditch" solution.



To the left in green are areas with Protestant majority, to the right repartition option.

[Caledonian Rhyfelwyr]

Repartition of NI was envisaged by British Governement many times, most seriously in 1974 as a "last ditch" solution.

A certain organisation came up with similar plans back in 1994, just in case things became Balkan-esque...



Complete with a divided Derry and all.

Such plans were of course a last resort. Further weaking Northern Ireland through further repartitioning has always been a nationalist stragety to make the state unviable. idk, for a unionist, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

[Azog 150]

Maybe not in the south, but you can be sure there will be violence once again in the Six Counties.

Saying that, do people in the Republic want unification? The ROI has already gone down the economic and N.Ireland is an economic dead-weight. Couple that with the violence and the inevitable costs of a policing operation.

[Gatsby]

There really isn't a debate to be had, it depends on what the majority of people want in the area in question.

[Copperknickers II]

As a Brit of Irish descent, I'd like to see Eire in the UK, with high levels of devolution. That way we'd be stronger and they'd be stronger. Plus with any luck there'd be more devolution to Scotland and Wales too, although at the current time its probably not a good idea for Scotland to be looking for independence.

[removeduser_052420]

I hope Ireland annexes the UK, as the Irish are ing awesome.

[Adhamh Ashashi]

I hope Ireland annexes the UK, as the Irish are ing awesome.

This guy has it right.

If the majority want it, then yes, but Ireland do not have the funds to get a car for the IMF, so I doubt they can sustain Fermanagh.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

Lets go back to the original borders?When there was no catholic and no protestant.And lets get drunk and be a united ireland.How come the rugby players can play together? http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=ie

[Azog 150]

^^The original borders?

You mean:




(Bear in mind most of those kingdoms were further divided into petty kingdoms)


When Ireland was very much divided (Even more so then now)? Before Catholicism was introduced to Ireland it would have been even more divided then that picture. Irelands divisions and warring kingdoms is what made Ireland so susceptible to foreign invasion in the first place

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

Did we not have a high king who ruled all at any time?In the movie Tristan and Isolde it says at the start that after the romans left britain,Ireland was actually more united and stronger than england and that we raided wales and england untill you guys united and told us to feck off.Is that true that we were the original aggressors?

[Azog 150]

Did we not have a high king who ruled all at any time?In the movie Tristan and Isolde it says at the start that after the romans left britain,Ireland was actually more united and stronger than england and that we raided wales and england untill you guys united and told us to feck off.Is that true that we were the original aggressors?

Ireland was almost fully united under Brian Boru for the space of twelve years from 1002-1014 (Even then, there were still some places not under Brians rule). It quickly ended however and Ireland dissolved back into division and war, paving the way for the Norman conquest 100 years later.

You are right that, throughout much of the Dark Ages, there were many aggressive kingdoms in Ireland. St.Patrick (Who was a Breton born in England) was kidnapped and enslaved by Irish slavers which is how he was first brought over to Ireland. At that time, England was also heavily divided.

[CiviC]

The "original borders" as those established by the English themselves in 1542.

[Ardruire Iacób]

The "original borders" as those established by the English themselves in 1542.

Not really, given the county divisions weren't finished until 1607, after the partly religious Nine Year's War which ended in 1603.

Did we not have a high king who ruled all at any time?In the movie Tristan and Isolde it says at the start that after the romans left britain,Ireland was actually more united and stronger than england and that we raided wales and england untill you guys united and told us to feck off.Is that true that we were the original aggressors?

No, never. And Tristan and Isolde is a pile of wank.

[CiviC]

Not really, given the county divisions weren't finished until 1607, after the partly religious Nine Year's War which ended in 1603.

1542 - establishment of Kingdom of Ireland, one island, one state.

[Ardruire Iacób]

1542 - establishment of Kingdom of Ireland, one island, one state.

The Kingdom of Ireland was anything but a state. The island continued to be ruled by a mix of Irish, Norman, Scots, and English warlords who nominally served the King of England, right up until the plantations (predominantly the root cause of this whole mess).