What is it do you think that makes the USA so resistant to the lure of atheism?

[Helm]

Almost all the well developed and wealthy nations seem to have developed a substantial amount of non-belief and irreligiousness within their populations as you can see from this map, the % indicates the number of people who have no belief in God. The major exception being the US, a country that ironically had a constution drafted by deists and secularists who had envisioned the United States as a nation free from religious fundamentalism. Instead the US is one of the most religious nations on Earth, they even teach YEC in some schools. So what went wr...not quite as planned?

[MasterAdnin]

We like to believe we are special

Adnan

[ShADoW]

The Bible Belt or religious politicians?

[Sphere]

Actually there is a very good argument that points to the incorporation of religous freedom in the bill of rights. Unlike many other nations, no religion is proped up by state subsidy in the US, which has thrown religions out of the stiffling confines of government embrace and into "free market".

To make it as a religion in the US you have to bring in the dough, so a lot of money and effort is put in to grow and improve various religous sects. As such a whole slew of religous sects have sprung over the history of the US trying to capture part of the "religous market". Indeed the fastest growing Christian sect is Mormonism, which is generally considered to have been founded as a fairly blatant racket. So in short, in the US there is a survivial of the fitess which doesn't exsist in other industrialized nations

This is to be contrasted with the aged and decayed national religions of Europe (The Anglican Church, The Catholic Church, The Gaulic Church, The Lutheran Church, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox etc.) which have been protected from "market pressures" so have not grown and adapted to capture a modern audience.

I don't think this argument accounts for 100% of religiousity of the US, but it certainly is a major reason it exists.

[Squiggle]

Actually there is a very good argument that points to the incorporation of religous freedom in the bill of rights. Unlike many other nations, no religion is proped up by state subsidy in the US, which has thrown religions out of the stiffling confines of government embrace and into "free market".

To make it as a religion in the US you have to bring in the dough, so a lot of money and effort is put in to grow and improve various religous sects. As such a whole slew of religous sects have sprung over the history of the US trying to capture part of the "religous market". Indeed the fastest growing Christian sect is Mormonism, which is generally considered to have been founded as a fairly blatant racket. So in short, in the US there is a survivial of the fitess which doesn't exsist in other industrialized nations

This is to be contrasted with the aged and decayed national religions of Europe (The Anglican Church, The Catholic Church, The Gaulic Church, The Lutheran Church, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox etc.) which have been protected from "market pressures" so have not grown and adapted to capture a modern audience.

That doesnt explain why Canada is the way it is. We have a separation of Church and state and while were more religious than Europe, were far less religious than America.

I think just as pertinent a question is why Atheism was or is so attractive to Europe? AFAIK Europes drift to Atheism started after ww2 and picked up steam in the 60's and 70's. A reaction to the horrors of the two world wars, creating disillusionment with established processes. Liberal theology became popular, couple that with the rise of verificationism and related philosophies and religion became sidelined as superstitious and archaic in the culture/schools. I may be wrong, I'm hardly an expert on European religious culture. That didnt happen in America though. Liberal theology was growing, but following the second World War dropped dramatically and Evangelical churches became popular. You can look to the so-called third great awakening for some history on that bit.

Why Canada is so much dramatically more liberal, theologically, culturally and politically than America I dont know. I can look at the history of Europe and understand why the destructive apathy of Atheism took hold there, but I have not even the vaguest clue why it, and liberal theology, has been making inroads in Canada...

edit: Sphere, mormonisms growth rates are entirely predicated on their birth rate...

edit2: in fact your post fails to explain much of anything, Anglicanism [etc] have changed dramatically in the last two hundred years, to what I've already described: liberal theology. Weather that caused the fall in attendance or was a result I dont know.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

This is to be contrasted with the aged and decayed national religions of Europe (The Anglican Church, The Catholic Church, The Gaulic Church, The Lutheran Church, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox etc.) which have been protected from "market pressures" so have not grown and adapted to capture a modern audience.

I don't think this argument accounts for 100% of religiousity of the US, but it certainly is a major reason it exists.

I disagree completely.

While many churches have official roles (such as the anglican church involved in the coronation of the UK monarch), I can only think of one country that actually funds religious institutions - Belgium - and it funds all religions, not just Christians.

Even in a staunchely Catholic country like Ireland or Spain or Italy all the church's money comes from donations.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

snip

That's a ridiculous argument. Orthodoxy in Russia is actually growing - and other countries do have freedom of worship, yet they have not witnessed any significant growth in religious feeling due to "competition". Your argument falls flat in the fact of facts.

Quite simply, the US has not been affected by the existentialist and nihilistic malaise as much as Europe. That's the answer - another good explanation is that the commercialist Puritanism and the pietistic cult of work which have been a feature of American society since its foundation blend well with the economic and utilitarian principles of modernity.

[Squiggle]

Norway funds their Church.

[Helm]

Everything considered there's still a surprising amount of belief lin God left in the world, in the 19th century there were those who thought it was all soon going to come an end.



"God is dead."



*looks at the world irreligious distribution map*



"Ok maybe not quite yet but he has taken a bit of a beating in much of the developed world."

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

You don't understand Nietzsche, Helm. Everyone is bound to misunderstand his notions as atheistic materialism, yet they are not. As far as I'm concerned, he didn't even deny God, only the "God of morality".

[Helm]

Nietzsche was absolutely a materialist, though he had some kind of concept of time going around in an infinite loop, effectively we would all be immortal but there's nowhere else to go.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

Nietzsche was absolutely a materialist, though he had some kind of concept of time going around in an infinite loop, effectively we would all be immortal but there's nowhere else to go.

Nietzsche was actually significantly closer to Monism in some of his precepts, but I reckon he also had a misguided materialistic intent most of the time. However, his "Death of God" phrase is clearly evocative of Monism, since he proclaims that humanity "must become gods".

IMO One of the really clear factors is that economic insecurity leads to the need for a higher belief.

Lol

Which is to say welfare states provide for the poor and needy the very people who make up the vast majority of religious in the US.

Lol

If we consider the history of the different religions the US was founded by what religious europe found conservative or even reactionary in some cases.

No, Puritanism was an extremely heterodox, subversive and radical belief at the time. If anything, the early Americans were way too Liberal.

It was christianity that justified in the masses' hearts the slaughter of savages, it was christianity that justified slavery, it was christianity that gave us imperial domain over the world.

No. Slavery was curtailed by the cult of work and commercialism which is inherent in Puritanism, while Imperial Domain was a result of the distilled democratic missionary spirit which had already divorced itself from all religious roots before the 20th century.

it was christianity that justified both the denial and the suffrage of women

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman's...mperance_Union

On the other hand the connection between christianity and rather bad that went on in europe is fresh in people's minds.

Europeans are just too tired of living, that's the issue. They remember the ideological strife of the nineteenth century up to the World Wars and they are glad they remain in a life of never ceasing comfortable hedonism. Which is actually everything that remained of their ideal after every utopian plan they devised failed - an unified Christian ecumene being not necessarily the most ambitious, recent, bloody or dehumanizing.

Education despite how often religious want to deny it is also a major driving force. European education is almost universally better both being more comprehensive, accurate and taught with better methods.

Is there any European university on top?

http://www.4icu.org/top200/

I find it unlikely that a typical European kid would come out of public school without what science calls the baloney detection kit which is a far cry from American grads.

No, actually the European "kid" is indoctrinated in the BS of liberalism, atheism, pseudo-Marxism, and other stupidity which tells him to hate his history, hate his own identity, and hate any ideal other than that of the socialistic welfare state and the 19th century epigoni like Marx or Proudhon who had wet dreams about implementing it. Kinda like a secular madrasa, except it's geared at inner intellectual and spiritual suicide instead of external fighting.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Is there any European university on top?

http://www.4icu.org/top200/

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The ranking is based upon an algorithm including three unbiased and independent web metrics extracted from three different search engines:

• Google Page Rank
• Yahoo Inbound Links
• Alexa Traffic Rank

No, actually the European "kid" is indoctrinated in the BS of liberalism, atheism, pseudo-Marxism, and other stupidity which tells him to hate his history, hate his own identity, and hate any ideal other than that of the socialistic welfare state and the 19th century epigoni like Marx or Proudhon who had wet dreams about implementing it. Kinda like a secular madrasa, except it's geared at inner intellectual and spiritual suicide instead of external fighting.

Do you have a clue what you're talking about?

Certainly no school around here provides any education in politics whatsoever, and practically every curriculum across the continent includes religion classes 1-3 times a week.

[Elfdude]

No, Puritanism was an extremely heterodox, subversive and radical belief at the time. If anything, the early Americans were way too Liberal.

Perhaps if you ignore calvinists.

No. Slavery was curtailed by the cult of work and commercialism which is inherent in Puritanism, while Imperial Domain was a result of the distilled democratic missionary spirit which had already divorced itself from all religious roots before the 20th century.

And it was encouraged by the southern baptist church. In fact that's what caused the split of the southern baptist church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman's...mperance_Union

In the early 20th century the catholics published what was essentially a catholic encyclopedia which explicitly supported anti-suffragists.

Europeans are just too tired of living, that's the issue. They remember the ideological strife of the nineteenth century up to the World Wars and they are glad they remain in a life of never ceasing comfortable hedonism. Which is actually everything that remained of their ideal after every utopian plan they devised failed - an unified Christian ecumene being not necessarily the most ambitious, recent, bloody or dehumanizing.

Your cynicism is noted as ususal.

Is there any European university on top?

... The US both has the worst education at the low end and the best education at the high end. The difference between US and europe is access to that education which is to say (especially our very very poor secondary education system) it doesn't matter if we have the best of the best if on a person by person basis our children can't do what theirs can. Also Oxford university competes pretty heavily with Harvard for the best university in the world.

If you google search US secondary comparisons to europe secondary education you'll see an absolute ton of information. For example it's quite likely that highschool students either graduate with an understanding of calculus or precalc. In the US the highest math you are required to learn is geometry. In the UK students graduate with almost a perfect understanding of the english language. Grammar, spelling and even vocabulary of an english student is several magnitudes better than the average US student. Modern highschool requirements don't require grammar is taught to students which is odd because in college they require near perfect grammar something every college professor will complain about. However Americans are very lacking when it comes to philosophy, and science. For example the mandatory testing that the french undergo in order to go to college includes philosophy questions that most would consider college level requiring not only a good answer but also perfect form. If you're curious about it the test is called the le bac philo and at least 50% of french graduates pass it.

No, actually the European "kid" is indoctrinated in the BS of liberalism, atheism, pseudo-Marxism, and other stupidity which tells him to hate his history, hate his own identity, and hate any ideal other than that of the socialistic welfare state and the 19th century epigoni like Marx or Proudhon who had wet dreams about implementing it. Kinda like a secular madrasa, except it's geared at inner intellectual and spiritual suicide instead of external fighting.

Well your cynicism is noted (again) but this isn't an argument.

Do you have any kind of facts or figures to back this up?
http://awesome.good.is/transparency/...llar/flat.html says otherwise.

No not really, it's really just the attempt of a scientist to explain why the US might be more religious. However the vast majority of people who are religious in your graph are below the average income if not the actual poverty line (although if they have more than 4 kids they could be).

[Imperial]

In the US the highest math you are required to learn is geometry.

Wrong.

Florida high schools are required to teach up to trigonometry with calculus being offered to those students that completed high school math credit in middle school.

Modern highschool requirements don't require grammar is taught to students which is odd because in college they require near perfect grammar something every college professor will complain about.

Grammar is taught within the communication class that is a requirement to pass your own grade.

However Americans are very lacking when it comes to philosophy, and science. For example the mandatory testing that the french undergo in order to go to college includes philosophy questions that most would consider college level requiring not only a good answer but also perfect form. If you're curious about it the test is called the le bac philo and at least 50% of french graduates pass it.

Yea, the inventors and innovators of the past century are lacking in science. Ok, dude.

-NASA
-Microsoft
-Google
-GPS
-Microwave
-etc... list is too long

[Kurtz]

Florida high schools are required to teach up to trigonometry with calculus being offered to those students that completed high school math credit in middle school.

Not true. All you needed was to get four math credits. (and about 3/4 got theirs by sophomore year)

[Copperknickers II]

Is there any European university on top?

Europe is pretty much the most educated place in the world, along with perhaps Singapore or Japan. America has the Ivy league and a couple of big state universities, but somewhere like Britain, smaller than many US states, has Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial college, UCL, Bristol, and other such world class establishments. Look at any city and you'll find it has a university in the top 200 or so in the world, Glasgow, Edinburgh, St Andrews, Durham, York, Leeds, all on the level of the USA's top 20 or so. France, Italy, Switzerland, Ireland all have top 50 universities on most rankings.

[Elfdude]

I would trace it directly to socialism and capitalism. Which is to say welfare states provide for the poor and needy the very people who make up the vast majority of religious in the US. IMO One of the really clear factors is that economic insecurity leads to the need for a higher belief. Which is to say, I think that the welfare state killed off religious participation in europe. The high proportion of minorities and immigrants in the US also inflate the values for several generations as minorities and immigrants both tend to be vastly more religious than the average American.

If we consider the history of the different religions the US was founded by what religious europe found conservative or even reactionary in some cases. While the US started its history with religious influence, countries like France for example caused a major popular schism between the poor and middle classes and religion with the revolution, this was further compounded by Napoleon's freedom of religion which he instituted across europe. Manifest destiny and religion are also strongly interconnected. It was christianity that justified in the masses' hearts the slaughter of savages, it was christianity that justified slavery, it was christianity that gave us imperial domain over the world. It was christianity which justified the freedom of slavery, it was christianity that justified both the denial and the suffrage of women, etc etc etc. We (our politicians) over use christianity as a justification. On the other hand the connection between christianity and rather bad that went on in europe is fresh in people's minds.

Education despite how often religious want to deny it is also a major driving force. European education is almost universally better both being more comprehensive, accurate and taught with better methods. I find it unlikely that a typical European kid would come out of public school without what science calls the baloney detection kit which is a far cry from American grads.

[Del Valle]

Still dog-eat-dog, not very comfortable life in America, without the "benefits" of European safety nets. So people feel the need to make up invisible nets for themselves (its no coincidence that America has higher rates of poverty and religion than most western European countries).

[Khassaki]

The low education standards in the US. Ignorance breeds superstition.