Temp-work

[Thorn777]

OK I want to know how you rightwing people justify the "robbery" called temp-work?

I know the situation is different from country to country, but to me it always seemed like straight up worker robbery and a growing problem everywhere. The job-mediation between company's and workers should be a non-profit govt or union task, which yes costs a bit, but it enables workers to get the freakin wage they earned. Also Im not at all necessarily against more flexibility, but instead of rewarding the workers for their flexibility and insecurity trough a higher wage, they get payed less in hourly wages and have fewer benefits. Of course the temp-work agency's can keep 1/3 or often 2/3 of the wage, so company's like Randstad and Manpower can become stock-indexed cooperations living the high life. It just doesn't make sense...

In Germany we used to have a govt agency doing the mediation, but nowadays they just have a website with temp-work agency addresses, and then they keep bragging about the 20+ billion surpluses they have each year. Well yeah! Because you get 10's of billions budgets and don't do nothing all day! Its so freakin idiotic.

Also unions could do the job, since they have close links to employers and employees, and since the unions weaken and weaken cuz of having less and less people willing and/or able to pay the union-fees(mostly young people), they maybe should start providing a service to the mostly young workers out there getting screwed.

Also to put things in freakin perspective: I remember the 80's in Holland, where the economic climate was kind of rough and there where no temp-work agency's yet. So what you got was these illegal mafia type of fellows with golden rolexes and training-suits sitting in a café all day long(Koppelbaazen), who hired Dutch workers and mediated them to German company's or construction projects in Germany, but now the fun starts: these outlawed practices by mafia types only demanded around 10% of the employee's wage and the workers where usually satisfied and still could make a decent living like this. Today its institutionalized and the robbers keep 33 to 66% of the wage and its all legal and even encouraged with subsidies and what not.

All this makes me vomit and I think EU wide this robbery fest should be banned.

Thoughts?

[Dubh the dark]

I agree that this is a growing problem. The idea of unpaid work is actually spreading in the currant climate with governments seeking to lower the unemployment rate. However I can't see change taking place whilst bodies like the EU and UN use this same process of free work. The unions as you say should be looking after workers rights, but they became all but businesses in themselves long ago. What solution could you recommend?

[justicar5]

temp works better than nothing. But yes the rates of some are a touch extreme.

[Thorn777]

I agree that this is a growing problem. The idea of unpaid work is actually spreading in the currant climate with governments seeking to lower the unemployment rate. However I can't see change taking place whilst bodies like the EU and UN use this same process of free work. The unions as you say should be looking after workers rights, but they became all but businesses in themselves long ago. What solution could you recommend?

Unions need to realize their dying and loose members en masse every year(especially young people). Instead of spreading lots of sweet-talk, they should be out there providing assistance like this. When the younger generations see in real-life what they can mean to them they will also pay the 25€ or whatever monthly fee. Which no one on temp-work can with their 800-1000€ a month wage, even if they look past current union BS. I'd say its in the unions self interest to go new ways in this modern economy with the govt retracting from such responsibility's they once had.

temp works better than nothing. But yes the rates of some are a touch extreme.

Whats freakin wrong with the govt or unions doing the job? I always wondered whats so incredibly valuable that they can keep 2/3 of a wage, and I always wondered why no non-profit govt org does this to serve its citizens and company's?

Also it becomes more and more a standard when just tolerating this, and it also drives overal wage-levels down, while company's hiring don't even have a huge cost benefit since they pay about the same or more per worker to the agency's. In the big picture its actually just the temp-work agency's really profiting. OK flexibility: but it can be done differently...

[Amorphos]

Good thread!

Yea I think temp work is a rip-off, with recruitment agencies it rips off both boss and worker. Right-wingers are always going on about their independence and look down on those who don’t pay their way [as they see it], yet many corporations employ temp workers because its cheaper. this is one of the main areas where I think the rules and business models in the private sector needs to be changed, everyone should be able to sustain themselves and be independent.

[Dr. Croccer]

Silly Thorn, don't you know? Government taking a share of your income withourt consent = theft; employer taking a share of your income without consent = completely okay.

[Thorn777]

^Interesting point.

Also: I wonder why its only lefties up in here?

[Ramashan]

I don't know, I've done my share of temp work, sometimes I got paid crap sometimes I got paid better than the full timers. Thing is, it does provide a service when a business just needs some extra hands they don't expect to keep on, need to fill a position quickly for someone who perhaps got hurt or is out on leave, or even as a recruitment method (I was offered the job at the factory I worked at for two months)

Also, workers going the temp route can really expect it to be a long term thing. I see no problem with temp work in and of itself and quite honestly I am confused as there could be an issue with it. I guess if a company abused it to screw the union, but usually union rules state that you need to have a certain number of union workers for every non-union.

[Thorn777]

^That you got paid more than the regulars is certainly something new to me(though I know it started like that in the UK once, early 90's when this was still new). And yes a partly flexible work-force is good for any company, but it should be rewarded trough a higher wage, not the contrary.

And the "issue" is that individual workers get screwed and that it keeps on growing and becomes more and more a standard(at least among unskilled labor), while regular jobs decrease dramatically among young people. With it(job insecurity, lower wages etc)you get that young people can hardly plan a family and what not(big problem in Europe).

Also remember that there is people not in college and just working on the side a bit now and then. There is millions needing to base a life on this.

[Ramashan]

^That you got paid more than the regulars is certainly something new to me(though I know it started like that in the UK once, early 90's when this was still new). And yes a partly flexible work-force is good for any company, but it should be rewarded trough a higher wage, not the contrary.

I only got paid more at the factory since my wages weren't going towards any health insurance or union dues. But I was only working there to make enough money to move out of state. And this was in the mid-90's. So, I could be talking out of my bung hole for all I know how things have changed since then.

And the "issue" is that individual workers get screwed and that it keeps on growing and becomes more and more a standard(at least among unskilled labor), while regular jobs decrease dramatically among young people. With it(job insecurity, lower wages etc)you get that young people can hardly plan a family and what not(big problem in Europe).

See, I don't see temp as the type of job that anyone should be able to plan a family with. But I think your claiming that a temp workforce allows employers to keep wages low. But, I'm not really sure how sound that is, I'd need to see data, since a full time experienced worker is worth more and far more productive.

Also remember that there is people not in college and just working on the side a bit now and then. There is millions needing to base a life on this.

Generally I guess I'm just confused, what does not having a college degree have to do with a temp work force? If you don't go to college and/or receive no trade skill training, your unskilled labour and will get paid accordingly. BUt yes, as I mentioned, companies could take advantage of the temp work force to have a high turn over low skilled low wage work force, just can't see how this is a wise business plan.

[Thorn777]

I only got paid more at the factory since my wages weren't going towards any health insurance or union dues. But I was only working there to make enough money to move out of state. And this was in the mid-90's. So, I could be talking out of my bung hole for all I know how things have changed since then.

Oh yeah, it started out as a model that made sense to businesses on the flexibility side so they could hire on peaks and easily fire on lows, but in return the employees got a higher wage to make up for the insecurity, like often having breaks between jobs in the same company. Not ideal, but it made sense for everyone involved...

Over the years the business-model changed entirely, while of course depending from country to country or branch to branch the regulations became differently(loose), but mostly more negative for the workers and the few regulations there are left are easy to work around now.

See, I don't see temp as the type of job that anyone should be able to plan a family with. But I think your claiming that a temp workforce allows employers to keep wages low. But, I'm not really sure how sound that is, I'd need to see data, since a full time experienced worker is worth more and far more productive.

No, like I said before: the company's aim is flexibility. Usually they pay even more per worker trough temp-work, its just that instead of the employee getting the dough, its the entire(meanwhile stock-indexed) branch collecting the lion-share. We just created a middleman holding its hand up for an easy job govt or unions should do - non-profit.

Generally I guess I'm just confused, what does not having a college degree have to do with a temp work force? If you don't go to college and/or receive no trade skill training, your unskilled labour and will get paid accordingly. BUt yes, as I mentioned, companies could take advantage of the temp work force to have a high turn over low skilled low wage work force, just can't see how this is a wise business plan.

"Accordingly" is mostly 2 or 3 times more than a temp-worker gets from his agency, who keeps 1/3 to 2/3 or whatever of the market-conform wage for itself.

And yes, its easy to say "I once worked. I once did this for some time next to college", but for many many low-skilled it has become a circuit where they hardly get out. In Germany only 10% get real contracts trough temp-work, the rest is chasing a carrot, and get fired & hired back after every third temp-work contract in the same company, after which a company must offer a real contract.

This is not humane and these working folks deserve their place in society, and should be enabled to freakin start a family if they want. We have created a monster, as economically/socialy/politically conform as it already has become to rob people their wage....just not for those actually trapped in that circuit....I know many down there and each time I hear their story's I get pissed and reminisce how thankful I am to have gotten a real contract trough connections back when I had to start out...

[Amorphos]

Many temp workers only do 16 hours or 3 days, yet in supermarkets they rotate them so if one is off the temp worker does an extra day ~ which they are obliged to agree with. This means that it difficult to get a full weeks work in. a good way to remove the middle man [temp agencies etc] would be to employ people on a similar basis but for 4-5 days, and swap workers between supermarkets [or given job of type] as and when needed. Firms just need to be more interactive and it would work out better for them and their employers, not to mention that we wouldn’t have to pay so much tax so that the workers get their wages topped up with working tax credits.

[Big War Bird]

OK I want to know how you rightwing people justify the "robbery" called temp-work?

Eh? is someone holding a gun to another's head forcing them to seek employment through a temp agency?

[xcorps]

Eh? is someone holding a gun to another's head forcing them to seek employment through a temp agency?

Obviously. The consortium also doesn't give you the chance to say "No, your rates are too high, I'll do something else."

Today its institutionalized and the robbers keep 33 to 66% of the wage

See? They break in and steal your stuff.

[Vizsla]

I am of the right and I’ll bite.
I’ve done temp work a few times in my life to keep the wolf from the door. I’ve done some really crappy jobs. I’ve been exploited by a few bad employers here and there.
I didn’t go to a union. I didn’t go on strike. I didn’t about it. I worked hard. I got the job done. I learned as much as I could. I applied the experience I gained to improving my career prospects and getting ahead in life. I took jobs I could learn things from.

The way I see it: no one owes me anything and life is not meant to be fair. I don’t expect the state to fix my problems. I take individual responsibility for my life and I fix it when it goes wrong. I prefer it that way. I do not understand why everyone isn't happier taking control of their own destiny.

[Thorn777]

There they are...

Eh? is someone holding a gun to another's head forcing them to seek employment through a temp agency?

Actually it becomes more and more forceful. Like in Germany you could go to a govt agency and get mediated trough them, today you can still go there but all you get is a desk with a PC to check out temp-work agency addresses. Then more and more low-skilled jobs are only perscripted via temp-work agency's. So it more and more becomes the only way to realistically find a job. Of course as an individual you can look for work individually and be successful, but its an illusion to believe the masses of job-seekers can all find a job like this, which often is only made available trough temp-work in the first place.

Thus no alternative = force. And its politically wanted and created...

NVM welfare officials who will cut benefits when an unemployed is offered a temp-work contract but refuses it...

See? They break in and steal your stuff.

They don't have to. They are more subtle nowadays. They just used some capital to activate lawyers, lobbyists, economists, department-officials, and politicians who then legalized the robbery. Now they don't have to break stuff, they just need you to sign a perfectly legal contract, and in a great great many many cases the officials at the welfare-desk will tell the unemployed job-seeker: "sign the contract or you will loose your benefits". So the sheriff also forces you out in the woods where the bandits lay...no need to break into houses...

I am of the right and I’ll bite.
I’ve done temp work a few times in my life to keep the wolf from the door. I’ve done some really crappy jobs. I’ve been exploited by a few bad employers here and there.
I didn’t go to a union. I didn’t go on strike. I didn’t about it. I worked hard. I got the job done. I learned as much as I could. I applied the experience I gained to improving my career prospects and getting ahead in life. I took jobs I could learn things from.

The way I see it: no one owes me anything and life is not meant to be fair. I don’t expect the state to fix my problems. I take individual responsibility for my life and I fix it when it goes wrong. I prefer it that way. I do not understand why everyone isn't happier taking control of their own destiny.

Thats nice. College job?

Many temp workers only do 16 hours or 3 days, yet in supermarkets they rotate them so if one is off the temp worker does an extra day ~ which they are obliged to agree with. This means that it difficult to get a full weeks work in. a good way to remove the middle man [temp agencies etc] would be to employ people on a similar basis but for 4-5 days, and swap workers between supermarkets [or given job of type] as and when needed. Firms just need to be more interactive and it would work out better for them and their employers, not to mention that we wouldn’t have to pay so much tax so that the workers get their wages topped up with working tax credits.

Thing with the super-market branch is that most working there are women who want to work part-time, and then super-markets are very keen on flexible scheduling seeing how they have long opening-hours, often from 07:00 to 24:00, and also realize that a women at the register or one filling up the store and now and then need breaks from the particular task their doing. At the register their doing quasi assembly line work and hear a beep all day, thats pretty nerve-wrecking, but at the same time they need a smile on their face and always be respectful towards customers, and on top of that they need to be exact and concentrated with the money. So they like to swap back and forth, so the women at the register can do the job of the women who filled up the store the next day, but who's back is kinda akin and can spend the next day sitting down. That needs allot of scheduling flexibility and I know this happens just as well in super-market chains who haven't yet went to bed with temp-work. So its more a natural characteristic of the branch itself, not one of temp-work(though their getting in there steadily concerning full-time employees).

I'm competing with them, I know that business...

[Big War Bird]

There they are...

Actually it becomes more and more forceful. Like in Germany you could go to a govt agency and get mediated trough them, today you can still go there but all you get is a desk with a PC to check out temp-work agency addresses. Then more and more low-skilled jobs are only perscripted via temp-work agency's. So it more and more becomes the only way to realistically find a job. Of course as an individual you can look for work individually and be successful, but its an illusion to believe the masses of job-seekers can all find a job like this, which often is only made available trough temp-work in the first place.

Thus no alternative = force. And its politically wanted and created...

So your gripe isn't with temp agencies, its with the government. How interesting.

NVM welfare officials who will cut benefits when an unemployed is offered a temp-work contract but refuses it...

So some people think they are too good for certain types of work? Too good work, too good for welfare.

Today young Thorn777 you have learned the folly of looking to the government to do you what you are capable of doing for yourself.

A friend just said she wont get double pay during bank holidays over Christmas [at the supermarket where she works], so I guess to the man no days are sacred if it means he has to pay.

AS the sayng goes, "If you don't show up on Sunday, then don't bother showing up on Monday."

[Rolling Thunder]

Eh? is someone holding a gun to another's head forcing them to seek employment through a temp agency?

As had often been observed, it really dosen't matter what weapon is used in a robbery, whether it be a gun, knife, hammer, or poverty.

[xcorps]

great great many many cases the officials at the welfare-desk will tell the unemployed job-seeker: "sign the contract or you will loose your benefits".

If you are saying that the government is colluding with these agencies to require people to do business with them in order to retain benefits then I see that there is a serious problem. But the problem isn't the business, it's the government. And those are the types of problems you get when the government is allowed to interfere too much with your life.

[Thorn777]

If you are saying that the government is colluding with these agencies to require people to do business with them in order to retain benefits then I see that there is a serious problem. But the problem isn't the business, it's the government. And those are the types of problems you get when the government is allowed to interfere too much with your life.

Well the sad thing is that govt has more and more become business. Because of this I get the mistrust many of you Americans have against govt, but instead of throwing away the only peoples mandate I rather like to see it change.