Javelins

[Fondor_Yards]

Does anyone else find that javelins are too weak? For example, eastern archers *lets use Eransahr Arshtbara* have a standard missile attack of 6, Thanvabara have an attack of 5. Greek Akontistai have an attack of 4, Peltastai 5, Iberian Assault Infantry 5, Iberian Velites 5. I know eastern archery is good, but one arrow from a compund bow doing more damage then a spear with iron tip? That just doesn't seem right. Pektastai were the bane of hoplites, but now even levy hoplies can sit there and lose 1 or 2 men. The only time I have seen javelins do respectable damage is either A. vs Pantodapoi or B. firing at the rear of a unit. I think the attack for all javelins type weapons, *pillum, javeliens, solifera, etc* should be raised by one, except for some of the ones already with higher attacks. *Akwêsihárjoz, Illyrioi Thorakitai* Does anyone else notice this or think the same?

[Ecthelion]

No... EB has the values correct.

Here's the thing that most people don't understand about missile weapons: size is NOT the only thing that matters.

The penetration of a missile weapon is dependent on 2 things: momentum and a penetration coefficient.

The coefficient part comes from what sort of tip you're using, iron, steel, bone, what have you.

The momentum is dependent on mass X relative velocity.

An arrow from a compound bow may be light, but if its velocity is many times greater than the javelin, which it is, then its momentum has the potential to be greater. And since arrows have better penetration coefficients because of their smaller tips, they may actually penetrate armor better than a thrown weapon.

The main reason that javelins were popular in the early days is their ease of use and upkeep. Theortically, any soldier can use and carry a javelin with ease. But as times progressed and armies moved towards more specialization, javelins gradually faded from use.

[Fontenelle]

So you agree that virtually every javelin armed skirmisher (especially mounted ones) should remain a waste of money, man power, and space?

[invictus]

I find archers atleast, the begining ones with epirus to be useless. I had 2 units of them, shooting at 1 roman general unit (equites consulares) and in 10 or so total volleys, not one man did they kill. They are a wast, javs are better atleast with the romans. -Leon

[Lee1026]

well, javalin troops should cost vitually nothing to field compared to the heavy troops, that was what was historical.

[Red Harvest]

Consider this: would your rather get hit by a javelin or an arrow? I would pick the arrow if given this unsavory choice.

Part of this is an issue with the RTW engine. It isn't set up to decide combat based on historical loss rates, but instead on more of a "fight to the death" style. If you give javs too low of an attack...and they are hard to get in range (as in all vanilla RTW) then you've made them non-historically ineffective. Even if your casualty rate was correct, few units would respond as they should. Most units in RTW will fight on without much difficulty from a couple of jav vollies.

RTW can have a huge range of morale. Increase one level of experience seems to give +2 morale for example. Because of the wide range of morale inherent to the game, you really can't "tune" units well to begin faltering after a few casualties.

I'm not offering a solution here...only commenting on some of the problems. Another factor: AI recruitment characteristics. If you give javs high attack and very low recruitment cost then the AI will go crazy building them. So not only must you consider the effect in RTW's battle engine, but also on recruitment by the AI.

[LSJ]

If a 10 javelins hit a horse in the ass, it should die. It only dies if the man is hit. That is one annoying thing about the engine. I can shoot a ballista, and the bolt passes through the horses head and doesn't hurt anyone.
I think that arrows are too weak a lot of the time, as my latest battle proved. I had three units of 35 men shooting volleys at a general bodyguard of 8 men. Somehow after about 15 volleys only one man died. Normally, even a weak arrow should be lethal if you get hit by 78 of them at the same time.

[Ahiga]

General's bodyguards, at least some of them ,do have 2 hp, which makes a drastic difference in terms of how ranged attacks register, somewhat even moreso than melee.

[QwertyMIDX]

We're working on general units.

[infierno]

i think when firing to mounted troups, except the horse armoured units, they should die faster cause the horse is a big target that, maybe wont die with 1 2 or 3 arrows, but will run amok and drop the horserider