Denmark fights for freedom of expression

[wilpuri]

This case has been ignored by most of the Western Media, perhaps it acts as an uncomfortable reminder of what most Western European democracies have become. Anyhow, I've been following the case, and now that it seems to be coming to a close, perhaps we could reflect a little on what it tells us.

Here are a couple of articles from the Brussels Journal to introduce the case to those, who are not familiar with it.

Jihad Against Danish Newspaper
From the desk of Paul Belien on Sat, 2005-10-22 20:25

Islam is no laughing matter. The Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten is being protected by security guards and several cartoonists have gone into hiding after the newspaper published a series of twelve cartoons (view them here) about the prophet Muhammad. According to the Islam it is blasphemous to make images of the prophet. Muslim fundamentalists have threatened to bomb the paper’s offices and kill the cartoonists.

The newspaper published the cartoons when a Danish author complained that he could find no-one to illustrate his book about Muhammad. Jyllands-Posten wondered whether there were more cases of self-censorship regarding Islam in Denmark and asked twelve illustrators to draw the prophet for them. Carsten Juste, the paper’s editor, said the cartoons were a test of whether the threat of Islamic terrorism had limited the freedom of expression in Denmark.

The publication led to outrage among the Muslim immigrants living in Denmark. 5,000 of them took to the streets to protest. Muslim organisations have demanded an apology, but Juste rejects this idea: “We live in a democracy. That’s why we can use all the journalistic methods we want to. Satire is accepted in this country, and you can make caricatures,” he said. The Danish imam Raed Hlayhel reacted with the statement: “This type of democracy is worthless for Muslims. Muslims will never accept this kind of humiliation. The article has insulted every Muslim in the world.”

Flemming Rose, the cultural editor at the newspaper, denied that the purpose had been to provoke Muslims. It was simply a reaction to the rising number of situations where artists and writers censored themselves out of fear of radical Islamists, he said. “Religious feelings cannot demand special treatment in a secular society,” he added. “In a democracy one must from time to time accept criticism or becoming a laughingstock.”

The affair, however, has also led to a diplomatic incident. On Thursday the ambassadors of eleven Muslim countries, including Indonesia, a number of Arab states, Pakistan, Iran, and Bosnia-Herzegovina, complained about the cartoons in a letter to Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen. They say the publication of the cartoons is a “provocation” and demand apologies from the newspaper.

Jyllands-Posten was also included on an al-Qaeda website listing possible terrorist targets. An organisation which calls itself “The Glorious Brigades in Northern Europe” is circulating pictures on the internet which show bombs exploding over pictures of the newspaper and blood flowing over the national flag of Denmark. “The Mujahedeen have numerous targets in Denmark – very soon you all will regret this,” the website says.

Meanwhile in Brussels a young Muslim immigrant published a poster depicting the Virgin Mary with naked breasts. Though the picture has drawn some protest from Catholics (though not from Western embassies, nor from the bishops), this artist need not fear being murdered in the street. On the contrary, he is being subsidised by the Ministry for Culture.


Cartoon Case Escalates into International Crisis

From the desk of Paul Belien on Thu, 2005-10-27 21:10
The case of the Muhammad cartoons, published by the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten two weeks ago, is escalating into a major conflict between Denmark and the Muslim world. Eleven Muslim ambassadors to Copenhagen, who had protested to Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen demanding apologies from the newspaper, decided to take the matter to international Muslim organisations, such as the Arab League and the Organisation of the Islamic Conference.

One of the eleven ambassadors is the ambassador of Turkey. She has received full support of the Turkish Foreign Ministry in asking Rasmussen to call Jyllands-Posten to account for “abusing Islam in the name of democracy, human rights and freedom of expression.” According to Muslims it is blasphemy to depict the Prophet Muhammad.

Last week, the ambassadors sent a protest letter to Rasmussen, but the Danish Prime Minister, stressing that Denmark recognized freedom of expression, refused to discuss the matter. On Tuesday the Egyptian ambassador said on Danish television that the group of ambassadors planned to meet Danish politicians to put pressure on the PM, but after a meeting of the group yesterday it was announced that the Organisation of the Islamic Conference would take the matter into its hands. The Organisation, representing 56 member states, has already sent a letter of protest to the Danish government. “Now it is moving up to the international level. Therefore, we will not try to contact Denmark’s political leaders,” the Egyptian ambassador said. She added that also “the Arab League will weigh in soon.”

The fact that Turkey backs the ambassadors is seen by some in Denmark as damaging to the Turkish bid for EU membership. Troels Lund Poulsen, the foreign spokesman of the Liberal Party said that it is important for EU candidate Turkey “to live up to freedom of expression demands.” Last month, however, the Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan stressed that anti-Islamism must be treated as a crime similar to anti-Semitism. Addressing the sixth meeting of the Eurasian Islamic Council meeting in Istanbul on September 5, Erdogan said his government has added an article to the declaration in the European Council regarding Islamophobia stipulating that anti-Islamism be accepted as a crime against humanity.

The Danish cartoons have enraged Muslims as far as Uzbekistan. “This is one of the most frustrating things ever happened to me, not only but all mankind. our beloved Prophet gave so much for us in this world, and we will get so much in hearafter inshallah (Shafat). This some kind of Moron journalists are making fun of finest creature of Allah. Allah has not created anybody holier, or better than our Prophet, (pbuh),” one Muslim writes. And another: “I would choke them to death who ever made these cartoons.” And another: “If i had a power I would execute them in front of the mass. Their hands and legs should be chopped off. Kuffaar!”

I can only say that Denmark seems to be the only Western European country with any self respect left. It is time to stop this madness.

[DavidtheDuke]

If/when the bombs start going off, eventually public support will wane for free speech, even though you and I might agree with it. AFAIK terrorism or just the threat of it is making everyone a criminal. Whether this is a conspiratorial/internally orchestrated malstrom or just a cultural trend, it's going to come to a head eventually. The question is at that point whether it'll be basically good or bad.

[wilpuri]

I would expect terrorism to do the opposite: to increase calls for freedom and an end to the violence, polarization of society, etc.

[Bwaho]

Wouldn't that be something, "Al-Qaida blows up cartoonists".

Hopefully the politians will show some backbone and not censor things like this. If the cartoonists themselves want to apologize they can do that if they want.

So those fanatic muslims thought those cartoons were bad huh?
Well this is what they show children in Iran on television:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/webl...try=18095&only

Basicly promoting suicide bombing

[DavidtheDuke]

When it comes to a head, sure, but what has it done legally for the US so far?

[wilpuri]

When it comes to a head, sure, but what has it done legally for the US so far?

Well Europe and America differ on this issue quite a bit. In Europe, after Madrid and London, much emphasis was put on understanding the muslim community and trying to convince everyone, that terrorism and Islam is unrelated in this day and age. That is well and good when you have such a splintered society. You have to make amends and sacrifice certain freedoms inorder to retain order and at least some kind of peace.

Any criticism of multicultural society or certain immigrant communities is quickly met with accusations of racism and sometimes even legal action, however justified that criticism is. I understand, that this is done in order to keep the peace, but I think it clearly indicates that multicultural society, at least as it is understood today, will require suppression of certain freedoms in order to preserve stability. Denmark has deviated from this path and everyone is fearing the worst. France or Holland could never pull off a stunt like this, but Denmark, that has a relatively small muslim minority (and balls) can.

Everybody knows we live in a difficult time of muslim/western relationships.
Muslims are being openly discriminated against on a daily basis, they are being killed by westerners in Iraq and Afghanistan, and muslims have also been violent against westrners on several occations.

This is NOT a good time to provoke more violence by publishing cartoons that everybody knows is deeply insulting to muslims.
This newspaper should be ashamed of themselves, but I think they are actually very happy with the reaction they get out of the muslim society.
I guess they wanted to stir up some conflict so they cancomplain and spread nazi propaganda.

btw: Denmark is a great country, but they do have a reputation of being extremely nationalistic and xenophobic.
I hope this won't spread topwards more tolerant countries.

This post awakens a variety of thoughts within my little head. You complain that muslims are being openly discriminated against on a daily basis, ok. Where? By whom? Surely not the state(s), which funds a whole variety of anti-racist and multicultural programs aimed at them among otheres. And that they are being killed by Westerners in Iraq and Afghanistan? Last time I checked it was the Americans trying to protect Iraqis from being blown up by fellow muslims. Which newspaper do you read?

I think this is exactly the time to publish this kind of stuff, to actually test how compatible Islam and Muslim communities are with Western values. The response has been rather discouraging. You accuse the newspaper and even throw in the Nazi card, interesting.

It exactly Denmark's will to hold on to Danish culture (which you see as nationalistic xenophobia) that makes it the finest Western European democracy in existance.

[Erik]

I think this is exactly the time to publish this kind of stuff, to actually test how compatible Islam and Muslim communities are with Western values. The response has been rather discouraging. You accuse the newspaper and even throw in the Nazi card, interesting.

Why do they need to be tested?
Everybody knows some muslims get violent if you do things like this.
Remember Theo van Gogh who made a movie to provoke muslims? he got murdered.

I pass the Hells Angels motorclub in Amsterdam several times a week.
I could "test them out" by yelling insults at them (IMO the Hells Angels are nothing more than a pathetic group of old men with a leather fetish...most of them are most likely gay)
But guess what: I'm smart enough to just ignore them.

Provoking is the last thing sombody should do if they want to live in peace and freedom.
But if you are a neo-nazi with a desire to start a "civil war" against minorities than provoking then is a good idea, just don't complain if I choose sides with my muslim neighbours.

It exactly Denmark's will to hold on to Danish culture (which you see as nationalistic xenophobia) that makes it the finest Western European democracy in existance.

I said Denmark is a great country.
The Danes are just nationalistic and xenophobic, but for the rest they are pretty kewl. (nobody is perfect...except for the Swedes maybe)

Yeah, but Muslims have to move on, as well.

Agreed, but making insulting cartoons isn't helping.

[wilpuri]

Why do they need to be tested?
Everybody knows some muslims get violent if you do things like this.
Remember Theo van Gogh who made a movie to provoke muslims? he got murdered.

Here's the difference between you and me: you blame Van Gogh, I blame the man who murdered him. You seem to be perfectly fine with the fact that saying certain things will cost your life, you accept it is a fact of life. Tsk tsk, not very tolerant and open-minded of you.

I pass the Hells Angels motorclub in Amsterdam several times a week.
I could "test them out" by yelling insults at them (IMO the Hells Angels are nothing more than a pathetic group of old men with a leather fetish...most of them are most likely gay)
But guess what: I'm smart enough to just ignore them.

Without taking into consideration the sexual orientation of the Hell's angels, there is a difference between a motorcycle club with violent tendencies and an ethnic group. At least I'd like to think so. Especially when we are told to respect this group, because they are supposedly somehow vital to us and besides, they enrich our culture.

Provoking is the last thing sombody should do if they want to live in peace and freedom.
But if you are a neo-nazi with a desire to start a "civil war" against minorities than provoking then is a good idea, just don't complain if I choose sides with my muslim neighbours.

What freedom is there if you can't practice it? Sure, in the Soviet Union it was totally ok to agree with the leadership in Kremlin and criticize the U.S, so they must have had a great deal of freedom? I mean they were allowed to think for themselves, as long as they didn't speak out. Good enough? May be for you, not for me. I am not a neo-nazi and I am not trying to spark a civil war and I think your assumption that I am one is another indication of how the sort of views I am expressing are immediatly met with accusations of racism. Way to prove my point, amigo.

I said Denmark is a great country.
The Danes are just nationalistic and xenophobic, but for the rest they are pretty kewl. (nobody is perfect...except for the Swedes maybe)

So how does this xenophobia present itself (I see nothing wrong with nationalism)?

[Erik]

Here's the difference between you and me: you blame Van Gogh, I blame the man who murdered him. You seem to be perfectly fine with the fact that saying certain things will cost your life, you accept it is a fact of life. Tsk tsk, not very tolerant and open-minded of you.

No, I blame the murderer too, I just say Van Gogh was stupid.
I'm not happy that saying certain things can cost your life but I am being realistic.

And I showed that this isn't exclusive to saying thing about muslims.
Pim Fortuyn was murdered for his nazi ideas by a left-wing animal rights activist.
And if you walk into a LA ghetto, walk to a gangster and call him a ****** you wil probably get shot too.
It's a fact of life: provoking violent people can get you killed, so don't do it.
This is how human society has functioned for thousands of years, you can't change it overnight by declaring "freedom of speech".

What freedom is there if you can't practice it?

Is making insulting cartoons a very important freedom to you?
You aren't even free to smoke weed.
I'm not even free to steal that new mobile phone I want.
Society must have restrictions to function, or there wil be anarchy.

And there is a good reason why this freedom is restricted (by law or by society..it is by law in my country, btw): Other people are hurt when you do it.
I'm not free to punch somebody in the face.
Why? 'cos it hurts somebody.
I'n not free to rape a girl.
Why? 'cos it hurts her.
I'm not free to insult muslims.
Why? 'cos it hurts muslims.
If you want the freedom to insult muslims then IMO muslims should have the freedom to kick you in the nuts.

[Hodor]

It's not like we only have fanatical muslims though. Last year, one of Austrias top cartoonists, Gerhard Haderer, was sentenced to jail in Greece for making a "blasphemous" comic book about Jesus being a cannabis-smoking hippie surfer.

[Pierre Béarn]

The Danes are just nationalistic and xenophobic, but for the rest they are pretty kewl.

I'm Danish and and do not at all feel that that describes me. Rather the opposite actually, so don't say crap like when it's not true. It makes me angry that you're depicting Danes as xenophobic devils when they're not. There are some, agreed, but it is far from everyone and you should be smarter than to judge Danes in general when it's only a few stupid politicians who are to blame. You're sort of doing what you're accusing us of doing.

Tolerance my friends, and we're all (almost) happy

[wilpuri]

I'm Danish and and do not at all feel that that describes me. Rather the opposite actually, so don't say crap like when it's not true. It makes me angry that you're depicting Danes as xenophobic devils when they're not. There are some, agreed, but it is far from everyone and you should be smarter than to judge Danes in general when it's only a few stupid politicians who are to blame. You're sort of doing what you're accusing us of doing.

Tolerance my friends, and we're all (almost) happy

Well Erik, in his infinite wisdom, has a tendency for name-calling and unsupported claims, as this thread well shows.

[Erik]

Everybody knows we live in a difficult time of muslim/western relationships.
Muslims are being openly discriminated against on a daily basis, they are being killed by westerners in Iraq and Afghanistan, and muslims have also been violent against westrners on several occations.

This is NOT a good time to provoke more violence by publishing cartoons that everybody knows is deeply insulting to muslims.
This newspaper should be ashamed of themselves, but I think they are actually very happy with the reaction they get out of the muslim society.
I guess they wanted to stir up some conflict so they cancomplain and spread nazi propaganda.

btw: Denmark is a great country, but they do have a reputation of being extremely nationalistic and xenophobic.
I hope this won't spread topwards more tolerant countries.

[danzig]

This is NOT a good time to provoke more violence by publishing cartoons that everybody knows is deeply insulting to muslims.
This newspaper should be ashamed of themselves, but I think they are actually very happy with the reaction they get out of the muslim society.
I guess they wanted to stir up some conflict so they cancomplain and spread nazi propaganda.

So when is a good time? Should we ask permission? Lets see given the tension between europe and the us and feeling of betrayal by some americans by europe then there should be no negative comments made by europeans that might provoke bad feelings amoung americans. Sounds stupid eh? Well thats basically what you said. Quite frankly if your a muslim and you get offended by this you need to get over it and Id say that to a christian fundementalist who got mad at anything aimed at Jesus as well.

[Pierre Béarn]

The reason why this whole case has become this big, is because the people who are upset by these drawings are not blaming the newspaper, which published them, but they're accusing the Danish government of "supporting" it by not wanting to say that the illustrations are wrong (illegal even) instead. The Danish government has refused to comment on the drawings and this is what has lead to this anger among muslims in Denmark and the Arab world.
I do hope that there is something deeper to it than just being cross about a few drawings, and I personally find this case ridiculous (Not the fact that the muslims get cross, but that they're blaming the government).
First of all I think that religion and politics should be kept as far as possible from each other, as this always causes some sort of trouble and simply I don't think that they have anything, anything to do with eachother (That's of course just my opinion)
Furthermore I think that nothing is as "holy" as it can't be made fun of - if you get me I did earier today watch a rather funny sketch completely ridiculing the Christian myth about Adam and Eve and it is highly unlikly that some bishop, or whatever they're called, will go on TV and tell us what a blaphemous thing this is. And dare I mention "Life of Brian".
Believe me I find it just as silly and stupid, maybe even more, when Christians complain.
What must be remembered, is that because a newspaper makes fun of the prophet Mohammed, it doesn't mean that it is a anti-islamic paper. If you search in some earlier papers you'll probably find drawings, sketches, etc. making fun of somrthing else that's important to someone else. If you think about how much fun is made of homoseksuals without noone caring.
I don't approve the drawings though. I find them quite unnecessary, but if some cartoonists wish to draw Mohammed it is their right (unnessesary and silly however :wink: ) to do so
All it takes is a little more tolerance (both sides should show it, but in this specific case the imams, who are responsible for making this big a deal of it, could perhaps make a greater effoert to just see it as the joke it is) that's all I'm asking for

-I'm not a particularly religious person myself, probably why I can't understand the outrage.......sorry

I would just recommend that you guys use the word "racist" properly. A racist is a person who believes that people of a specific race is "above" people of another race just because of the fact that thay belong to two different races.

Everybody knows we live in a difficult time of muslim/western relationships.
Muslims are being openly discriminated against on a daily basis, they are being killed by westerners in Iraq and Afghanistan, and muslims have also been violent against westrners on several occations.

This is NOT a good time to provoke more violence by publishing cartoons that everybody knows is deeply insulting to muslims.
This newspaper should be ashamed of themselves, but I think they are actually very happy with the reaction they get out of the muslim society.
I guess they wanted to stir up some conflict so they cancomplain and spread nazi propaganda.

btw: Denmark is a great country, but they do have a reputation of being extremely nationalistic and xenophobic.
I hope this won't spread topwards more tolerant countries.

Prejudging are we?
Having lived a great part of my life in Belgium (a rather tolerant country ), I'm Danish btw, I can tell you that there is not much difference between Denmark, Sweden, Spain, England or anyother (Western) European country when it comes to approach to muslims or other non-westerners. (I had a lot to do with people of different nationalities)
Denmark being extremely nationalistic and xenophbic is a myth Swedes make up so thay won't feel ashamed of all nazis in Skåne.
Just joking of course, but I don't have the impression that (Western) European countries are very in their opinions on this subject (really it doesn't matter what country you're from), so I don't understand your point. (You might wanna be careful calling the newspaper nazi, it's a rather serious accusation )

Just remember guys. Tolerance and we're all (almost) happy :laughing:

[Carach]

Everybody knows we live in a difficult time of muslim/western relationships.
Muslims are being openly discriminated against on a daily basis, they are being killed by westerners in Iraq and Afghanistan, and muslims have also been violent against westrners on several occations.

This is NOT a good time to provoke more violence by publishing cartoons that everybody knows is deeply insulting to muslims.
This newspaper should be ashamed of themselves, but I think they are actually very happy with the reaction they get out of the muslim society.
I guess they wanted to stir up some conflict so they cancomplain and spread nazi propaganda.

btw: Denmark is a great country, but they do have a reputation of being extremely nationalistic and xenophobic.
I hope this won't spread topwards more tolerant countries.

woah, bias much?

muslims that are raping native underage girls, and making excuses such as 'she wasnt wearing a headscarf', or 'she was dressed like a hore so i raped her'...muslim immigration is bringing the rape levels up, it brings crime rates up, and a lot of them seem intolerant of the people that are living in the country they have just moved to.

the normal people of afghanistan are for the most part happy, your never going to make everyone happy because not everyone are happy in our own countries, its logical.
Part of iraq's problem is their own religious intolerance, they dont like each other, and they dont like westerners now, eventhough they were praising them when we liberated them, They dont understand that the army needs tobe there to stop some crazy overthrow revolution thats happened to many times in the area in the past.

denmark with a reputation of being nationalistic? well damn thats bad isnt it.... must be the only european country with a sense of national pride left.
Europe as a whole have let muslims into their countries, and we only get violence back, and if they want to hunt down and kill cartoonists for making an 'offensive cartoon' (which is in their right to do) and bomb their office block, thats only proving my point, i hope tony blair kills the cartoonists in the newspapers over here for making funny cartoons that would be offensive to him, or maybe the jews should go around executing anyone who makes fun out of them (which tbh, they are made fun out of mo0re than any other religion a lot of the time), maybe the gays should hunt down the daily mail guys because they are 'homophobic' - after all the muslims can do it!

As someone said on an earlier page, denmark's will to keep their culture makes them the best european democracy out there right now

There, i think i balanced out your incredibly bias argument now

[Last Roman]

so they can go ahead and bomb but the west cant make a little fun? Sounds like a bad case of they can give it but not take it

but they do have a reputation of being extremely nationalistic and xenophobic.

really, I had never really thought of it that way, but than again I dont live in Europe and cant really see that first hand

[leeho730]

Yeah, but Muslims have to move on, as well.

[TIGERCAT]

This case has been ignored by most of the Western Media, perhaps it acts as an uncomfortable reminder of what most Western European democracies have become. I can only say that Denmark seems to be the only Western European country with any self respect left. It is time to stop this madness.

Western Europe has been swept clean (broom analogy) of
Alpha males & conservative peoples the last 300 years.
This is due to high casulaties in the Napoleonic, Franco-Prussian,
WWI and WWII and huge immigration to the United States and
Latin America the last 350 years.Their isn't anyone left when the times comes to protect their civilization (in large numbers) except the homosexuals/lesbians,
socialists, Beta males, U.N. beauracrats,moral relativists, prostitutes,
(Germany has the best) and anti-american european journalists. All they are good for is to debate the issue and nothing is done about unrestricted immigration.
(similar to the U.N.) The muslims tested France/Belgum and found out they
are cowards and weak. All I can say (according to the French and
Germans) it is all America's fault for the Islamics not assimilating
into your dying societies. (sarcasim) LOL
Maybe China should occupy the place because at least
they got balls. My best advice to young men in Europe (ouside Britain, Ireland
& eastern Europe) who are conservative or have ambition, is to immigrate now, because 20 years from now it will be a semi-Islamic hell hole.

[Denny Crane!]

Imagine if our governments started having this attitude that they couldn't be mocked, what if they decided they couldn't be agrued with either. This newspaper should keep on doing what it wants and people should support them if they believe in democracy.

I really value my freedom of speech and if I want to be satirical about muslims I will and fight for the right for other people to do it to.

"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight for your right to say it." Voltaire.

I hate to say it (for risk of agreeing with Ummon j/k) but most muslim governments end up going this way. Does anyone know of a truly democratic muslim government?

Peter