The Imperial Glory Mod

[p.jakub88]

First i need to discuss those Grand Campaign modes time frames with m_1512 (he is offline now and will be online tomorrow).


Now i' m working on further startpos.esf changes according to the future mod list of changes.

I will delete the starting traits for scholars, so we could easier calculate the technology research points needed.

Next step will be to add some already researched technologies to some of the factions (startpos editing).

Then changing the faction name (i never done this before) and maybe faction description and government type (startpos.esf + *.loc files editing).

After that we should edit the starting armies unit stats (in startpos.esf).

=================================================================================================================

[m_1512]

Hello Flikitos,

Its quite good idea. I am working on units now--> to be precise, a complete new set of Maratha units...

The time frame is 1700-1830.(Sorry, I must have typed that by mistake).

Are the unit models and textures of the units you mentioned already available??(If yes, it would really help me) Anyways, i'll discuss it further with p.jakub88.

And broaden the expertise of the various factions in military units.

France on Artillery, Prussia on infantry, Spain on cavalry, etc...

I read it somewhere, the expertise was something like this:-
France: Artillery
Britain: Infantry
Spain: Irregular troops/Guerrillas
Prussia: Cavalry
Russia: Guard Troops
Poland: Lancers etc...
I may even be wrong. I just remember reading it somewhere.

Thanks for your Suggestion...
With Regards...

[p.jakub88]

Those skins presented by Flikitos are very good, but i think this will be too hard to divide the Grand Campaign into such small periods.

I will stop on editing Grand Campaign time frame for now.

Good luck in making new Maratha units!

==================================================================================================================

[p.jakub88]

I have made some changes in two db tables (kv_rules and projectiles).

This mod is a "movie pack type" so you will only need to put it inside your Empire: Total War data folder.

If those changes are good and realistic (in your opinion), we could implement later this mod into your future mod.


Changes:

---> new realistic ranges for land units (infantry, artillery, etc),

---> realistic accuracy over distance (for cannons, infantry, etc),

---> realistic damage from artillery projectile.


Note: those changes were applied to default Empire: Total War units.

This mod should be compatible with your Empire: Total War version.

I' m waiting for your opinion about this mini-mod.


EDIT: you already downloaded my two mods, so i deleted them from this thread.

[m_1512]

Ok, I will try them.

With Regards...

[p.jakub88]

Second mini mod that i have made.

I change the overall naval and land unit morale to more realistic values.

This mod is a "mod pack type" mod ---> easy to enable through Mod Manager 1.5.


List of changes:


---> new morale values for land units (reworked bonuses and penalties),

---> new morale values for naval units (reworked bonuses and penalties).


The idea is to force the land unit to loose morale when they loose about 50% men in unit.

Try this morale mod in custom battles (naval custom battle and land custom battle).

Tell me, if those values are too unrealistic (i will try to correct some values if they are incorrect in your opinion).

If you like this mod, we could implement it into your future mod.


Installation


Unpack it to your Empire: Total War data folder and launch through Mod Manager (load order shouldn't be important).

If you use ultra unit size (160 for line infantry i.e), you could check how many casualties the infantry takes before broken.

In my version (120 men per unit size) of this mod, the unit will be broken when casualties are about 40% to 50% (this depend of the unit type and experience).

[p.jakub88]

My comments about both mods:


1) "new ranges and accuracy for land units mod":


---> my idea is to give the infantry a possibility to have fire range even 300 m (of course 300m for elite infantry only),

---> shooting from 300m to each other shouldn't kill anyone or only few people per few volleys (due to the musket long range inaccuracy),

---> in my mod most effective will be shooting from vanilla distance (from 70 to 100m),

---> about artillery range: now the average distance for all guns will be from 1200 m (12lbs) to even 2000 m (land 32 lbs), those values are of course historically correct (400 m range in vanilla is stupid beyond measure...),

---> artillery projectiles make more damage (but still realistic value).



2) "new morale for land and naval units":


---> i didn't hear about a unit which fought when only 40/160 soldiers were alive (vanilla setting....),

---> more realistic is to take max 50% or 60% casualties and loose all the morale,

---> i didn't hear about a ship which fought when only 30/90 men were alive + few guns only + dismasted +hull damaged (vanilla setting....),

---> dismasted means that your are unable to move the ship, but still fire cannons + repel boarding,

---> my idea of naval morale: dismasted + about from 40 to 50% casualties + about half guns destroyed (one broadside at least) + some hull damage = ship will surrender (this will be more realistic than vanilla).


I' m waiting for your opinion about those mini-mods m_1512!

[m_1512]

If those changes are good and realistic (in your opinion), we could implement later this mod into your future mod.


Changes:

---> new realistic ranges for land units (infantry, artillery, etc),

---> realistic accuracy over distance (for cannons, infantry, etc),

---> realistic damage from artillery projectile.


Note: those changes were applied to default Empire: Total War units.

This mod should be compatible with your Empire: Total War version.

I' m waiting for your opinion about this mini-mod.

Hello,
I just played the mod. Its an amazing relief from the monotony of vanilla version. The artillery was especially i found outstanding, and atlast both musket and rifles had proper ranges.

In and all, its great modification.

Just one small thing, in the battle i played(it was a field one), the enemy infantry marched up into range. fired just a volley, then gave an all out charge towards my line. then suddenly, they stopped in mid range to manuevre, and they got massacred by my volleys.

[p.jakub88]

I really appreciate your feedback m_1512 ---> of course those ranges could be customized according to your will.


The enemy unit wouldn't be tired when reaches your lines (i' m using vanilla value for fatigue...).


The number of casualties from the musket fire in the Empire: Total War land battle depends on:


---> the base unit accuracy,

---> firing drill used in battle (fire by rank and platoon fire is very deadly at close range),

---> unit formations (i.e i use historical accurate tighter formations for line infantry units),

---> distance between firing units,

---> the musket projectile damage value inside the projectiles table,

---> other values inside the kv_rules table.


I have made some tests in custom land battle (flat terrain) and i didn't notice a "volley massacre" ---> the enemy wasn't so much damaged (they have still 110/120 men when they reach my lines with bayonet charge).

I used only mass volleys (no fire by rank or platoon fire).

Only very long exchange of fire will massacre an unit, but only at almost point-blank range.

Killing the entire infantry company shooting at them from 250m or 300m will take ages (probably the unit will run out of ammo first...).

I will need to think, why the enemy casualties in your case were so big as you mentioned...

Good night m_1512!

[m_1512]

I will need to think, why the enemy casualties in your case were so big as you mentioned...

I think heres a probable explaination(i may be wrong too). my line was something like this...

!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!! !!!!!!!! !!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!
+++++++++++ ++++++++ +++++++++ ++++++++ +++++++++++++ ++++++++++
C C C C C C C C C

Legend
!!!! Riflemen
++ Infantry
CC Cannons

The enemy stopped twice, once in halfway in my range of infantry... Good amount of damage that once... Then again they stopped right in front of my cannons, but did attack the cannon crews... By that time the infantry and cannons did a lot of damage...

Sorry for the shabby diagram, but the point being, the cannons and rifle positions were in middle positions to the infantry line...

[m_1512]

About the morale...

There are few instances in history where units performed gallantly despite suffering terrible punishments in battle. A few examples are Coldstream Guards, Highlanders, Napoleon's Grognards, Polish Lancers etc.

In the east, according to culture, surrendering was considered as degrading their honour. There was an example when Chatrapati Shivaji's rearguard numbering around 500 fought to their end with an entire mughal battalion to give their King time to make it back to the capital.


I think that some units can be given better morale values. Probably the most elite and decorated ones. What's your opinion???

With Regards...

[p.jakub88]

About the morale...

There are few instances in history where units performed gallantly despite suffering terrible punishments in battle. A few examples are Coldstream Guards, Highlanders, Napoleon's Grognards, Polish Lancers etc.

In the east, according to culture, surrendering was considered as degrading their honour. There was an example when Chatrapati Shivaji's rearguard numbering around 500 fought to their end with an entire mughal battalion to give their King time to make it back to the capital.


I think that some units can be given better morale values. Probably the most elite and decorated ones. What's your opinion???

With Regards...

Nevermind, you could leave the vanilla option if you wish (this mod changed only the overall units morale).

====================================================================================================

[p.jakub88]

I think heres a probable explaination(i may be wrong too). my line was something like this...

!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!! !!!!!!!! !!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!
+++++++++++ ++++++++ +++++++++ ++++++++ +++++++++++++ ++++++++++
C C C C C C C C C



The enemy stopped twice, once in halfway in my range of infantry... Good amount of damage that once... Then again they stopped right in front of my cannons, but did attack the cannon crews... By that time the infantry and cannons did a lot of damage...

Sorry for the shabby diagram, but the point being, the cannons and rifle positions were in middle positions to the infantry line...

==========================================================================================================================

Keep in mind, that riflemen are very good sharpshooters with good accuracy, so they will kill more enemy at distance than standard line infantry.

I don't know, how big was the enemy army in your custom land battle example...

Artillery is inaccurate, but used in big quantity (few batteries) will do big damage to enemy unit.

As i said, the number of casualties depends partly on the fire drill.

Using platoon fire (grenadiers, etc) will make more casualties in enemy lines than normal mass volleys.

I will try maybe to give the enemy higher morale bonus when charging with bayonets, so if they take casualties during maneuvering they will be still active when reaches your lines.

I wonder, if proper editing the fatigue table will force the enemy to march instead of running (running make them tired and vulnerable).

==========================================================================================================================

[p.jakub88]

I will be working on another mini-mod for you m_1512.

My proposal is to rework the units fatigue during land battle.

In vanilla Empire: Total War i saw an enemy unit which run into my position (250m).

This causes tiredness in enemy ranks and lower the unit morale.


My idea is to prevent the enemy from being tired (winded) when entering melee combat.

Enemy infantry should march most the time and perform bayonet charge only from point-blank musket range.

I will try to give higher morale bonus to unit when charging, so the charging unit will more likely withstand close range musket volleys, which are quite deadly from about 70 m.


Next the fighting fatigue: i want to lower this value, so the melee combat will be longer and more realistic.

I understand, that reloading and firing make someone a bit tired, but the line infantry is a trained infantry unit for such actions.


Running all the time should of course make an unit tired beyond measure (so better will be marching instead of running).

So, the deal is to make the enemy unit "smarter" ---> i.e no more running across the whole battlefield, etc.


The enemy should deliver volley fire and advance in marching order and then repeat fire, etc.

When they reach i.e couple of meters from your infantry position, they should perform a bayonet charge (depends of their morale and equipment).


Please reply and tell me if those proposals are interesting for you m_1512!

If yes, i will make a small mod compatible with you Empire: Total War version.

======================================================================================================================

[m_1512]

Nevermind, you could leave the vanilla option if you wish (this mod changed only the overall units morale).

Thats ok. I like your idea better.

[m_1512]

My proposal is to rework the units fatigue during land battle.

In vanilla Empire: Total War i saw an enemy unit which run into my position (250m).

This causes tiredness in enemy ranks and lower the unit morale.


My idea is to prevent the enemy from being tired (winded) when entering melee combat.

Enemy infantry should march most the time and perform bayonet charge only from point-blank musket range.

I will try to give higher morale bonus to unit when charging, so the charging unit will more likely withstand close range musket volleys, which are quite deadly from about 70 m.

Excellent. That would make a battle more challenging and enjoyable.
Even i have encountered the same thing many a times, AI running fruitlessely towards my lines only to make their soldiers tired.

[m_1512]

I understand, that reloading and firing make someone a bit tired, but the line infantry is a trained infantry unit for such actions.


Running all the time should of course make an unit tired beyond measure (so better will be marching instead of running).

So, the deal is to make the enemy unit "smarter" ---> i.e no more running across the whole battlefield, etc.


The enemy should deliver volley fire and advance in marching order and then repeat fire, etc.

When they reach i.e couple of meters from your infantry position, they should perform a bayonet charge (depends of their morale and equipment).

A very refreshing idea. This will surely give every battle a refreshing character of its own.
Usually, as the game advances, every field battle becomes a same old tale and AI predictable.

[p.jakub88]

So, i see that my proposal is interesting for you m_1512.


I have made some custom land battle testing and the results were a bit strange (not to say unrealistic).

As you noticed, after few musket volleys (depends on the fire drill used) the enemy began a bayonet charge.

It went all well, until they reach point-blank range of the player infantry units.

As you said, the massacre began and the enemy morale dropped a lot --> causing the enemy unit to rout.


How to fix that unbalance?


We both know, that vanilla battle AI is a bit stupid (beside flanking attacks which are realistic).

I could make higher morale bonus when performing a bayonet charge.

I will leave the vanilla option about fatigue penalty when running (it is not entire realistic, but gives the enemy some chance in battle).

Then lower the fatigue penalty when in melee combat, so the enemy enters the engagement less tired and the melee fight will be longer and more intensive.

We could of course change the overall morale system bonuses and penalties too (like in my mini-mod that i have made for you earlier).

Next, changes in the corresponding unit morale (like line infantry, grenadiers, etc).

Moreover, in my opinion the reloading skill and firing rate of the musket is too high in the vanilla ETW (makes the battle almost a fight between Puckle guns...).


Good battle AI mod should have such components like:


---> unit range mod (for land units),

---> accuracy mod (kv_rules),

---> morale mod (land and naval morale),

---> fatigue mod (for land units),

---> units stats mod (size of units + projectiles damage).



I will test all such mods together, to create a realistic battle mod which makes the ETW battles more realistic than the vanilla ones.


In my opinion, the most realistic behavior in land battle from all infantry units has a grenadier unit (few musket volleys from distance, marching into my lines, at the end performing a bayonet charge from couple of meters).

The biggest problem to modify, is the historical size of units in the game (i.e French line infantry company was about 40-60 men only).

I will inform you about all the changes and my future possible proposals about such complex battle mod.

If you have any questions or ideas, feel free to add them to my list "must do".

====================================================================================================================

[m_1512]

Unit Sizes:

There is one thing i noticed in the games(mostly vanilla) while playing as britain. Defence of paris is always left to some few companies of Armed Citizenry(Sometimes by chance, there would be just 1-3 other regular units also). And they are so less in number that a line infantry or militia is able to deal with 2-3 of them(referring to citizenry here).
Overall they can be summed as Citizenry = Less numbers + poor firepower + poor morale. But excellent drill movement.



Battle AI:

There is a thing which suddenly came to my mind about Battle AI(vanilla). While defending a fort, the AI seems to keep running around inside the fort.
The next observation, i'll explain by example...

There is a town beseiged by the player. Town has no fortifications(And the new feature in ETW was that buildings were now a part of battle mechanics). The player army 'slightly outnumbers' or is a 'superior force' to that of AI.
The AI rather than occupying certain buildings in key locations and fighting defensively, they give an all out charge towards the player no-matter what locations the player is holding.
All the player has to do is form a strong line, secure flanks, keep artillery ready, maybe even garrison a few buildings in front as an advance guards and wait for the AI to smash themselves against this line.


With Regards...

[p.jakub88]

I have made some change in the units abilities if you are interested.

Now the infantry will only walk (marching) during a land battle.

They could still "run", but this will be like walking (almost the same speed and the same fatigue penalty values).

The results were interesting: still melee bug, but the enemy performed bayonet charge from realistic distance.

The only problem is, that the unit movement animations are a bit weird (a sort of slow-motion when "running", no smooth walking, strange lag, etc).

I will try to fix that, if i of course manage.

However, now the melee fight is more enjoyable and longer, because the enemy isn't tired when reach my lines (walking all the time and bayonet charge from couple of meters).

Another issue will be how much casualties they will suffer, when marching all the time towards my lines...

Next step will be to disable completely the "melee bug" in Empire: Total War, so no more tendency to melee wars with musket wielding infantry units instead of musket volley fire.

The final step will be to modify the unit formations (i found an excellent mod which improves the AI formations in land battle).

I would like to know, how do you think about those mentioned ideas?

========================================================================================================================