Franks salii and ripuarii

[Sthilico]

My offer is ... because it is not possible to do a division between the Franks, having like that another new faction and a different character, that is to say as in the mod it is tervingii and greutungii ... because not to do salii and ripuarii ...
Regards

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

I think that would mean losing another faction somewhere. Which one would you want to lose?!

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

You could do like in IBUR - I just named the Franks "Regnum Franchi Salii et Ripuriani"
If I remember correctly though there was not any division between the two frankish factions at this time

[Sthilico]

Ok is a opinion, but the true is that I think and see in the mayority of works on the Low Roman Empire, or in the universities of History, that the Francs already were divided from ends of the 3rd century, and with language and own customs every federation.
Nonetheless an idea is alone, to go to the rear of the division done in the game of the Goths.
It is true that a faction to be eliminated and .. seeing the wide digest I believe that as opinion I would eliminate the Iazigues that give enough CDT's problems

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Well the franks were hundereds of small tribal communities until childeric I (460s) or possibly chlodio (440s).

[Valentinian Victor]

to be perfectly frank (excuse the pun!), the Franks did not feature that much during the time frame of this mod, certainly they did not become the threat they were going to become until nearly a century later. I think that they should remain the way they are currently in the game, a nuisence.

[Lionheart]

The Franks first of all are not a people. Like the Alamanni they are a federation of small german peoples.

About the term Ripuarii they usualy simbolize the Franks that toke over Colonia Agrippina. Their regnum remained independent until the time of Chloderic the Parricid (killed around 508/509) by order of Clovis I. He was the son of Sigebert the Lame king of the Frankish tribes around Colonia Agrippina.

The Franks of Colonia Agrippina appear to be a unifyed kingdom and on the contrary the Franks that enter in Gaul remained divited in small clans.
If you reag Gregory of Tours you will see a clear reference to that. After Clovis put down Afranius Syagrius and after defeating the visigoths and killing Alaric II in Vouille. He then turned against the other chieftains of the Franks and conquered their kingdoms.

So the term Salii in my opinion represents a dinasty perhaps begining with Chlodio perhaps even with the semi-legendary Pharamond. But they are a clan that after that give birth to the Merovingian dinasty.

Also in Gregory they he say that Merovee was not the son of Chlodio but the son of a semi-legendary beast and the mother of Merovee, wife of Chlodio. Putting the legends apart. In my interpretation this passage simbolizes that Merovee was not son of Chlodio but from another guy, perhaps some other chieftain or warrior, and he was conceived before the marriage of Chlodio and is wife. Also do not forget that the Franks could have several wifes and concubines. And i believe that Chlodio in the lack of heir could have adopted the son of is wife. Like the way that romans do it and even like some other german kings.

[Sthilico]

Well well, I see that each one has his different opinion! Jaja

[Lionheart]

However about the game. I believe the Franks of Colonia Agrippina should be the faction. However the Salian franks could appear was generals. And in time they could be the kings of the franks in the way that if the frankish king dies is heir could be other then a son. Julianus do that with Julianus so the heir could be anyone that you liked. You simply need to change heir.
Honestly i dont believe that two frankish factions should be a necessity. However if you put then i game fine by me.
About Tervingi and Greuthingi makes sense the division: because Visigoths and Ostrogoths are not the same people. Their etnic background could be considered the same. And i say considered because when the Greuthungi destroyed the kingdom of Bosphorus they fused with the population and they also received members from others tribes. The german tribes were not closed to outsiders and any warrior even if we comes from a diferent tribe could join another people as a warrior, a merc, by marriage, by capture whatever...
Also the Tervingi were ruled by one dinasty and the Greutungi are ruled by another one. Their history in the west altough paralell was also diferent. So they are two peoples with a common origin.
The Franks even if they are divited are a federation like i said before. So you could easely represent this small division in one faction. With the Tervingi and Greuthungi this is not possible i believe.
ALso i'm not even speaking of other gothish tribes that lived in Pannonia and border regions that are diferent of the Tervingi and the Greutungi.

[rhalina]

If you want to be historical, you need over 50+ frankish factions... Arround the III/IV century passage, there was not really two peoples.

E Salin said that we could difference them with some stuff in necropolis, and with the axis of colonisation in Gaul/Gaul-Belgium, but this way is arround 490/550, and even in the lignage of their kings, before Chlodio and Merrwing, there was only rullers chosen by people (so not larges ones, to meet them all in the same time in a same place) in one "closed" family..

The true unification of Franks begins with Chlodewig the First, after the defeat of the Roman Kingdom of Gaul, by purchassing and murdering all other "family members".
It seems that the Ripuaires were more peacefull with romans, but really, with the stuff doiscovered in tombs, there were not an really diofference between them..

One thing you could do, is to rename the Franks Mérovingians, or proto-mérovingians, but this could be used arround 440/460, not before.. so... Frankish tribes seems good, the problem is that in the game, they allfighting as the same people, without desagreements.. :p

--> We need an mod full based on franks, that could be more fun for historicity^^
( ps : my english is worse and worse with the days.. sorry for that )

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Yes the way they are in the game is historical. And lionheart Colonia Agrippina is in Gaul. The Ripurian Franks are where campus chatti is in vanilla BI

[Lionheart]

Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium is the roman name of Köln or Cologne. The city is taken in 459 A.C. by the Ripuarian Franks and stay in their hands until the time of Clovis when the city is taken by the merovingians.
Colonia Agrippina is in Germania Inferior and was is capital. So the city was not in Gaul.

[rhalina]

True. That was the limes for protect gaul, but the pretor siege of these province was in Trêves (or A.Treverorum) , for the "Gauls"..until the burn and sack by franks..
So, if we play before this date, it's and huge city of the WRE, after, it's juste and burned and not really might "city" owned by an noble frank.. ( The town ruller of the early VIth century was killed by Clovis the 1st i have red..)
Fit the franks here before these date is an err, they were fighted, killed, sometimes voctorious, they passed throught the city and legions/armies there, but never have large territories before..

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Hmm... It originally belonged to the salian franks. oh well.
Also, according to my records, Augusta Treverorum was never taken by the franks until after the death of Aetius and Majoran, although it may have been besieged multiple times.

[rhalina]

And according to the date of the mod, there is no way to let these town to the franks...

[Lionheart]

Augusta Treverorum small time-frame chronology

Iron age foundation later town of the Treveri

Gain importance when Agrippa build the road from Lyon to Cologne 39 B.C.

The city was in the front line during the batavian revolt 70 A.C.

196/197 played a small role in the war between Septimius Severus and Clodius Albinus.

256 first sack of the city by German Warriors

274 city burned in the end of the life of the Gallic Empire

286-306 the city is the capital of the perfecture of Gaul (reigns of Maximinus and Constans Chlorus) and kept beeing the siege of the perfecture.

353 Magnentius besieges the city he dont have any sucess in taking the town

360 Second sack of the town by german tribes

394 the mint is closed

410-435 the city was attacked four times during this time

451 city taken by Attila and the Huns

485 the city becomes the capital of a Frankish kingdom that wili become later on part of the kingdom of Clovis.