Preview: Settlements of Middle-earth

[NickTheGreek3]

and one thing i didnt notice is the deeping wall curves not strait and i dont no if they added it for the hornburg

Well, they can't make it round, the part of the walls on which ladders and siege towers goes has to be straight. They might make it diagonal or straight rather than round, but that doesn't change much.

[*Ranger*]

and one thing i didnt notice is the deeping wall curves not strait and i dont no if they added it for the hornburg

I thought it was so they could get as many defenders on the wall as possible

Anywho, Helms deep is perfect. I wonder if the gameplay will reflect the movie, eg: if the gate falls then your pretty much screwed

[ArmaFennica]

Of course Rohirrim didn't made it. It belonged to Gondor. Actually all the area know as Rohan belonged to Gondor, until Cirion, Steward of Gondor, gave it to them as a reward for helping Gondor throwing off an invasion.
It isn't a very heavily-fortified castle IMO. I mean if the gate is breached, the fortress has fallen. I don't even know what's the use of the second layer of walls, since there is no gate to prevent the enemy from storming in. Still, it is described as a "invulnerable fortress" in the movie.
Behind the Deeping Walls there are homes. Without it the fortress would be too small.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And you do not see an issue with the shallow defensive capabilities of a stronghold???
-If the gate is breached, the secondary gate should be in place to funnel the enemy entry, and then pour down stones, arrows, bolts, oil and fire...
It was not like the Númenoreans had no knowledge of the very basic craft of war?

In the movies, it was a gateway to Glittering caves.
-Can anyone see why I find that particulary stupid, and not to be repeated over again in the mod? It's a CAVE. No need to defend a cave.

[ArmaFennica]

I think ArmaFennica means that it is poorly designed in the movie itself, not by KingKong.

But I don't think so. There might have been stronger fortified castles in medieval times but the Hornburg really has that feel of an ancient place. The Rohirrim didn't make it, they don't build stone castles, they just use it. Because of that it's not solely in a state that's practical, they preserve what they can but it is still decaying with time, not improving.

Though Helm's Deep should really go further into the mountains behind the wall, as it is now you really don't know what the Deeping wall is supposed to protect and it really appears a bit useless.

Aye, the disgust I feel is towards the fort from the movies (and the utterly foolish battle-scene to ice the cake).

The movie fort does not follow their "theme" of Númenorean design, it's poorly thought through and large parts have actually no function.
The Deeping wall is a good example, it has no need to be there. It serves no purpose to speak of, it protects nothing and the archery-curve is too minute in the movie-version to have any impact. And it is way too low to fulfill the area-denial.

[MasterBigAb]

There are no homes behind the wall in the Hornburg as there would be really little place to deploy your armies, especially on huge settings...

[NickTheGreek3]

There are no homes behind the wall in the Hornburg as there would be really little place to deploy your armies, especially on huge settings...

I'm referring in the real Hornburg, as shown in the movie.

[MasterBigAb]

I know you were, I wanted to "add" why it hasen't been done for the custom settlement then

[MasterBigAb]

But it wouldn't make sense if an attacking army places his ram there so they have to go back and right to reach the gate...they would actually always take the shortest way when approaching so I think it is better the way it's now...

[NickTheGreek3]

But it wouldn't make sense if an attacking army places his ram there so they have to go back and right to reach the gate...they would actually always take the shortest way when approaching so I think it is better the way it's now...

I didn't know that the Al was so smart to place the ram at the nearest spot from the gate, I though he always placed his ram at the center. Oh well... I guess the only think we have to do is to just wait and see it done when it's released.

[Lemoniser]

Just out of interest is there any chance that therell be that big rock that the uruk general or whatever stands on in the movie (the one who gets shot)? Cos that'd be pretty cool to see.

[MasterBigAb]

Just out of interest is there any chance that therell be that big rock that the uruk general or whatever stands on in the movie (the one who gets shot)? Cos that'd be pretty cool to see.

And pretty unimportant
It currently does not exist and I am pretty sure KK won't make it as it is indeed a "waste of time" he could spend way better doing something else...

So I can almost certainly tell you no, you can hope/make a submod creating this once it is released though I am sure ?!?

[Rora Lion]

With all the due respect to Peter Jackson, the movie is not exactly a manual of how battles should be ever fought.
E.G. at the Hornburg: Attacking a fortress with PIKES (!?!) that are even useless to beat off cavalry when it finally comes (?!?!). The Iron Duke wouldn't be happy

[Lemoniser]

With all the due respect to Peter Jackson, the movie is not exactly a manual of how battles should be ever fought.
E.G. at the Hornburg: Attacking a fortress with PIKES (!?!) that are even useless to beat off cavalry when it finally comes (?!?!). The Iron Duke wouldn't be happy

Well they were going to fight a mainly cavalry army so it makes a lot of sense. As for not being able to beat off the cavalry, thats because of Gandalf or the fact that their formations were totally disorganised, depending on if you mean the charging out or the flank attack.

@MBA haha yeah I realise that it's really unimportant but I figured I'd check anyway. And yeah I might but I doubt it, its not really important to me either

[ArmaFennica]

With all the due respect to Peter Jackson, the movie is not exactly a manual of how battles should be ever fought.
E.G. at the Hornburg: Attacking a fortress with PIKES (!?!) that are even useless to beat off cavalry when it finally comes (?!?!). The Iron Duke wouldn't be happy

I second that!
Do NOT use the LOTR trilogy as the absolute guidelines, as those movies gave piss poor battles and even more terrible tactics.
-If the mods and makers ask, I'll be happy to give out more eloquent response.

[Incan]

id like a more eloquent response

i mean could you post a pic of the version of helms deep you are thinking of? because i personally think the movie version is just fine.

and yes the movie wasnt a pefect respresentation for how battles should be fought...its a movie and its supposed to be epic and dramatic which it was.

[ArmaFennica]

id like a more eloquent response

i mean could you post a pic of the version of helms deep you are thinking of? because i personally think the movie version is just fine.

and yes the movie wasnt a pefect respresentation for how battles should be fought...its a movie and its supposed to be epic and dramatic which it was.

The movies had the J.R.R. Tolkien illustrators Alan Lee and John Howe as main artists, this we all know.
-John Howe has made books about medieval costumes and warfare aswell (do read), so he really knows his fields of work. That's why the Helms Deep was double the disappointment. (though I am sure that he is responsible for the accurate curving of the wall)

In the movies, Númeonoran architecture was seen in Minas Ithil, Orthanc, Minas Tirith and the Black Gates.
-Why not shape the Helms Deep like other Númenorean structures?

Helms Deep was said to have housed a regiment of Númenorean troops.
-This means anything from 2500-5000 men.
-Add the civilian population which always follows such a large number of men, and the stronghold should be rather big, as it is described in the book.(yea, last night I did read it) In addition, the valley was said to be fertile and wealthy. It would have supported the stronghold with foodstuffs.

In the movies, the fort is tiny in comparison to the one described in the book itself. The castle-part itself is inept when it comes to protection and field of shooting. The whole area seems utterly unable to support settlement and there is no sense of grandeur.

Lets talk about the topic; "why?"
-Why is Helms Deep where it is? What is the reason to erect a large fortress up in the mountain out of clear sight, some distance away from very important river-crossing?
-The answer for me, is Orthanc. The Isengard is a Númenorean Fortress, placed to protect the vital river-crossing and natural gap in the mountains. Should an enemy cross the river, they would have lay siege to this fortress and thus keep their rear safe. The tall towers of both orthanc and Helms Deep should therefore see eachothers, give out signals and the regiment from the mountain stronghold could then devastate the hostile forces via rear-attack.

Since all the settlement models that will be added will be based on the LOTR movie, it has to be similar with the one shown there.

I don't think there is a written law to repeat the idiocies displayed in the movies...

I don't see the reason why you hate Hornburg design so much. It is a fortress, no matter how well fortified or not it is.

It's not a fortress, if it fails to protect and serves no apparent purpose.
-I dislike the movie-version because it is more akin to an Irish Round Tower, than an actual structure of war and siege.

If you dislike it so much, just never siege it... Many players would like to see Hornburg as seen in the movie as a playable settlement in the campaign map and concidering that other settlements like Minas Tirith, Black Gate etc. are added, Hornburg couldn't be missing.

The dislike runs deep, like dwarven grudge.
I advocate the mod-team being innovative!

[Rora Lion]

@Lemoniser, you don't climb a ladder with a 3 meter pike in your hand, under fire. And the in movie the Uruks do ...

[Incan]

lol uh im pretty sure the only ones climbing ladders were uruk-hai with swords and shields... pls try to remember (the pikes) its mostly for cinematic effect.

[Hermes Trismegistos]

Can you mention some concrete points were the film version differs from the book? I don't find that many. The surrounding lanscape is quite different of course.

Edit: The upper part of the Deeping Wall not steeping to the outside and the tower not really being in the middle of the castle seem the only real differences. Some other parts of Helm's Deeps fortification are just described a bit vaguely, so maybe you imagined them differently...

[lolIsuck]

Can you mention some concrete points were the film version differs from the book? I don't find that many. The surrounding lanscape is quite different of course.

Edit: The upper part of the Deeping Wall not steeping to the outside and the tower not really being in the middle of the castle seem the only real differences. Some other parts of Helm's Deeps fortification are just described a bit vaguely, so maybe you imagined them differently...

Do you mean just in Helm's Deep or in the entire movie?