Plague of rebels in Poland campaign - help!

[FootSoldier]

I'm playing vanilla M2TW Kingdoms Gold vhd/vhd - Poland short campaign

Help! Any solutions, or even similar experiences are appreciated.

For the last 60+ turns Rebel armies of 2 to 9 units appear every turn in the Polish empire, mainly between Riga and Bulgar. As many as 5 separate rebel armies have appeared in a single turn, and at any one time there are 5 - 10 rebel armies on the map. I tried ignoring them but they simply multiplied, and the trade loss started to really hurt.

I have 5 half stack armies in the field, each commanded by a family member general. Typically I knock down 2 or 3 rebel armies each turn. These are simply replaced somewhere 4 moves away from any army.

There are occasional lulls, but it's been going on for 60+ turns, and is the dominant feature of this campaign.

They don't accept bribes, and don't do anything other than stand on roads cutting trade routes (I estimate the trade loss each turn as somewhere from 3000 to 6000. Sometimes they cut the port road and the main road out of town. Riga's income dropped from 4000 to 1800.) When clicked on they say "I will not stop until you relent". In negotiation they say "Have you come for peace?", but only the bribe option is available, and they turn it down, repeatedly. (My diplomats there probably couldn't give an alcoholic a beer in a bar).

I've tried treating this as a puzzle with a solution, but I'm stumped. Actions so far:
- each province is 100% catholic (I had a carpet of priests to achieve this)
- each province has a family member governor
- each province has at least a 5 unit garrison
- each province has a priest
- all provinces are green loyalty
- relations with the Pope are perfect (I built lots of cathedrals)
- I took rebel Iraklion (at some cost and effort) since I had seen it act as a rebel faction centre in M1TW. (I was watching the game with a view map cheat, including agents. Rebel Crete poured out assassins and rebel fleets).
- reputation of Poland is Dubious

Mainly they appear in the "Russian" territories: Riga, Novgorod, Vilnius, Smolensk, Moscow, Ryazan, Sarkel and Bulgar. Rarely Kiev, Halych, Iasi, or Caffa. Poland eliminated Russia very early, but the continuous rebellion didn't start until many turns later. (Eliminating Russia and Hungary are the victory conditions - but since Hungary took Jerusalem in a crusade and then knocked out Egypt the end isn't close).

Rebels appear in northern Europe/Scandinavia with normal frequency. No rebels appear in the Vienna/Budapest, Balkans/Constantinople region.

The final thing I can think of to try is abandoning Bulgar, which anyway makes less money than the corruption. I'm reluctant, because I built it up to Citadel ahead of the anticipated Timurid invasion. (Is this a case of he who defends everything defends nothing?)

So, any ideas, suggestions, or similar experiences? Sympathy is also accepted

[MJDreamWalker13]

Your faction leader's authority is the cause of your problems. The more authority he has the less rebels tend to appear.

[Ishan]

Your faction leader's authority is the cause of your problems. The more authority he has the less rebels tend to appear.

That is correct quickest way to remedy or increase his authority is train loads of spies and assassins and have successful missions that will increase his authority to 7+ considering he has atleast 2 by default.

[FootSoldier]

Thanks for the responses. King Pakoslaw the Tyrant has authority of 10 .

I've played this game a lot, and signed up here specially to ask about this scenario, which I haven't encountered before. It definitely "feels" like some kind of script is running to control this, because I've never encountered anything like these kind of numbers before. This has been continuous over 60+ turns, through the life and death of 2 kings, who had high authority.

Hmm ... here's some screen shots I've idly taken to show what I mean:

Bulgar rebels turn 126


The general has come out of Bulgar with a couple of Polish retainers to tackle a 4 unit rebel archer army (2 moves there and 2 moves back). The next turn (126) a 6 unit rebel army appears between him and the target 4 unit one, and behind him appears a 9 unit stack of rebels. He needs reinforcements to deal with the 6 unit, let alone the 9 unit. Altogether this is about 6 - 8 moves to settle, with extra troops, or a longer turn to bring up reinforcements.

While this is happening the VERY NEXT TURN (127) 2 new stacks and a couple of 2 unit rebels appear. One is a 6 unit in Riga and full of viking raiders:

Riga rebels - turn 127


(A nearby diplomat tries to bribe them. You can see behind the diplomat the smudge/devastation from a 9 unit stack brought down 2 turns before).

Meanwhile, another 9 unit stack appears just outside Moscow, where a militia army is fortunately garrisoned.

Moscow rebels - turn 127


At that point there was something like 12 rebel armies on the map. They've been appearing continuously like this for about 40 turns at this point.

Fifteen turns later it's the same story (and 56 yr old King P definitely has authority of 10). This has been happening each turn since the above 126/127 turns, but I just happened to take these screen shots at that point.

Riga Thorn rebels 142


Here a general tackles a 2 unit between Vilnius and Smolensk. The three rebel armies in Riga, Thorn, and Halych all appeared on turn 142 as that general went to tackle the 2 unit rebel army.

Meanwhile further east it's the same story:

Moscow Ryazan rebels 142


These 2 armies had appeared the turn before (turn 141) as the general at the bottom was heading south to deal with a Mongol invasion of Sarkel. Obviously he had to turn around ...

At this point there are 11 rebel armies on the map, all having appeared in successive turns. Other smaller stacks are dealing with other smaller unit rebel armies. It isn't a new wave - this really has been continuously like this since about turn 90, and is the dominant feature of the campaign.

There are no enemy or hostile neutral ships off the coast, and no enemy or hostile neutral agents, diplomats etc in these areas. (I've noticed that enemy diplomats and hostile ships cause loyalty drops and spawn rebels, as was the case in M1TW).

Anyways, thanks for listening . Oh, and if you know the developer/game designer who came up with the scenario I'd like to throttle him, since this is less than amusing game play ha ha.

[Silverheart]

(I couldn´t see the screenshot)
What is your economy like?
If you can afford, train a whole bunch of cavalry armies (like 6 units strong, and good mix of melee and missile) in several castles at once, and send them out in every which way to attack as many rebel armies as possible simultaneously.
If the Rebel force is big, just command the troops yourself.
You clearly need to up the speed at which your troops get to the troublespots.

If you have any wars going on, don´t forget to advance a little there as well.

[FootSoldier]

I fixed the ImageShack urls.

Yeah, the economy is good, so there's a garrison of 6 - 8 foot in each province, and I have flying corps of cavalry running up and down. It does eat up a lot of resources, but everything else is going ok. The Timurids have turned up, and I'm looking forward to trying out the Polish Guard on them. The Mongols don't like them, so I'm guessing it will be the same for the Timurids.

Each campaign seems to bring something new, and my game style has changed. I've been running kind of peacenik campaigns with the emphasis on diplomacy (which I'm not good at), but my reputation is only Dubious despite my tyrant king and a lot of land grabbing. Usually I'm Despicable by now. So I'll wear this ...

Then on to a new campaign

[VIP]

Very interesting situation. Thanks for sharing, FootSoldier. Unfortunately, I cannot offer any advice, as you have already done everything that I would do. I.e. my first steps are to build church, roads and garrison that can immediately deal with any rebellion within province borders (my garrisons go from 8-12 units, most of the time).

The only, even remotely similar situation that I had so far was when I sent six armies (stacks) to conquer Baghdad. Just as they have set off, my emperor died and I got a massive rebellion/desertion all over the empire. Just two, out of original six, invasion armies on Baghdad reached its destination... Fun all around!

Good luck and please keep us posted how everything turned out in the end.

VIP

[Chad29]

I think there's supposed to be a limit on how many rebels can be on the map at one time. as long as you get the rebels off your roads, I don't think they'll do any economic damage. Enemy troops tend to surrender and back away from a largely superior force, so use that to keep them off the roads.

[Tears of Destiny]

I think there's supposed to be a limit on how many rebels can be on the map at one time. as long as you get the rebels off your roads, I don't think they'll do any economic damage. Enemy troops tend to surrender and back away from a largely superior force, so use that to keep them off the roads.

They do cause ecenomic damage by creating "Devastation" squares that slowly increase. This value starts in the double digits, and quickly ramps into the triples for lost florins per turn.

[Chad29]

So they cause damage off the roads too? I thought it was just on the road squares. Or maybe it's just worst on the road squares.

[FootSoldier]

The major cause of economic damage is the loss of trade. If a rebel (or enemy) army stands on the road between the town and the port it's like the port was blockaded. The income plummets. Likewise if they stand on a road between two towns they cut out the trade between them. The devastation does occur whether they stand on a road or not, but it's minor.

I've got used to rebel chasing now ... the Timurids are kinda distracting. I'm still amazed at the number of them - 12 rebel armies is the most at one time, but each time I clear out one lot the next lot appears. I do resent the loss of trade, though ... grrr!

[jlchavis0844]

Might be a case of cheaters never win. I believe that watch towers reduce the spawning and if you have toggle_fow turned off then you wouldn't be building watch towers and there would be more rebels popping up (brigands in this case). I always build towers along my roads even if it takes a general out of action for a while. I mostly use those useless 0 star governors for this but you could be using the rebel hunting generals to build towers.

[Chad29]

I do the same thing. Line watchtowers along my roads, and sometimes put some in the middle to keep dark blotches out of my lands. I don't usually put them up in the middle of nowhere, though.

[FootSoldier]

I have watchtowers everywhere in this campaign. I thought there might be a "king of the rebels" hiding somewhere, so built them off road too. Fow is on - using cheats doesn't work for me, but I'm happy for others to do what they enjoy.

BUT - I've cracked it. It's ships causing it. Any ship that's not mine, including those of allies (France). I knew ships and agents cause rebellions from M1TW, and its the same here. See the screenshots, below.

I also think this campaign has a lower "spawn rebel" threshold - other factions have been getting more than usual too. Curiously there's almost no agents anywhere - no herds of diplomats etc. Poland's 34 territories have 3 foreign agents on them - 2 French merchants and a Byz priest. No diplomats. It's the same elsewhere, so my spies tell me.

A plague of rebels
On turn 160 there were 9 rebel armies on Poland's 34 territories - 2 existing and 7 new.

Trade loss 4,400 per turn
You can see this in the screenshots. Rebels standing on your roads are nasty, especially if they're cutting a port road. They cut the income of the province they appear in AND the income of the provinces they're trading with. I'll come back to that, below.

Fleets cause rebels
On turn 158 a French (ally) fleet nosed onto Stettin. There had been no rebels in the Baltic region for some time. Rebels then appeared in Stettin, and were put down by King Pak. On turn 159 a second French fleet nosed onto Stettin - rebels spawned in Hamburg, Thorn, Vilnius and Helsinki in turn 160 (see screenshots). Down south enemy Byz and Mongol fleets cruised by the Iasi/Kiev coastline. Rebels spawned in Iasi, Kiev, and Bran.

Screenshots:
I made a selection of screenshots from turn 160 to turn 162 to illustrate the French fleets, numbers of rebels, and amount of trade lost. I couldn't put the whole series up - limited number of files. But, you can verify the trade loss, numbers of rebels etc. from these.

Turn 160 - Rebels and trade loss 4400+

Hamburg/Arhus - trade loss 1100 (2nd French fleet arrives)
Thorn/Riga/Vilnius - trade loss 870 (2nd French fleet arrives)
Helsinki/Novgorod - trade loss 1000 (2nd French fleet arrives)
Iasi/Kiev/Caffa - trade loss 1500 (enemy Byz and Mongol fleets off the coast: not in shot)

There's some in Bulgar and Sarkel too, but the trade loss doesn't count. There are other problems there. I missed the one in Bran.

Turn 161 - Fighting the rebels

Trade between Hamburg and Arhus jumps instantly the rebels are gone. (Arhus from 4714 to 5896). I discover new rebels in Bran. My anti-rebel armies can't reach the ones in Iasi, Bran and Kiev this turn.

Turn 162 - Trade restored (figures for turns 160 and 162: rounded)

Arhus: 4714 to 5863 (1100)
Hamburg: 2497 to 2580 (80)
Thorn: 1943 to 2121 (170)
Riga: 4243 to 4450 (200)
Vilnius: 1692 to 2149 (450)
Helsinki: 2532 to 3209 (700)
Novgorod: 3748 to 4048 (300)
Kiev: 4406 to 4959 (550)
Caffa: 3591 to 3648 (50)
Iasi: 2216 to 3000 (800)

Total trade loss: 4400

There's a bit of loss from Sarkel, Bran, Moscow etc., but I didn't have screenshots for that.

I hope you can follow this. But, why is France, an ally with amiable relations, doing this to Poland?

Possible reason - Poland sent a diplomat through Toulouse to the Portuguese at Pamplona, the first in decades. Portugal is a French vassal (as is Venice), and Spain is a French ally. The path was clear, but, lo and behold, rebels spawn in Toulouse and block the diplomat (see sceenshot). Also, a Polish fleet went through the English channel, heading south. I think France is warning Poland off that region. Although relations are amiable France is the second power in mainland Europe, and underneath things are chilly and full of rivalry.

[Visorslash]

That's certainly useful... +rep to you!

[The Juggernaut]

If you build forts, I think it decreases the amount of rebels that appear (at least it did in Rome.) Those rebels are just crazy! Hope this helps!

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Age old problem that has been answered a thousand times a thousand different ways. There are some interesting old threads that offered some good explanations, the most likely being the level of content in neighbouring cities. If its a yellow face you will get some rebels and when its blue you will get lots. Russian regions, however, always attract rebels regardless of content. Another thing I've noticed is if you leave the rebels roaming for a long periods of time they return very quickly after being eliminated. If you get rid of them quickly then you should gradually see fewer and fewer.

Some players claim forts help, but I've never found this to be the case. When you errect a fort, the rebels only return elsewhere.

Another factor seems to be the traits of some of the governors.