Sup with 'no arty max 5 skirmishers'

Just come back to a few games of NTW MP, and you might as well remove artillery from every nation.

Seriously guys? What's happened?

Hey, you're right... I almost forgot that the no art rule wasn't originally carried over from ETW.

Well, what happened was that first went the unicorns which were overpowered in the beginning...
and then, you know how it is, once a bad habit strikes, it spreads.

Originally Posted by daniu

Hey, you're right... I almost forgot that the no art rule wasn't originally carried over from ETW.

Well, what happened was that first went the unicorns which were overpowered in the beginning...
and then, you know how it is, once a bad habit strikes, it spreads.

Yes, but when NTW first came out, most people felt like giving art another try and went with No Fixed.
When I left about 6 months ago, No fixed max 2 art was something of the norm.

Yea its just like no fixed even though mortars and rockets suck in ETW now.

Sucks that people are that intent on removing a key part of the game. Arty just adds another dimension to the gameplay, yet people are too scared to go up against it.

Originally Posted by {GODS}Scipio_Africanus

Yea its just like no fixed even though mortars and rockets suck in ETW now.

Yeah they got debuffed cause no one was allowing them and now if they are allowed anyone that brings them is just hurting themselves as its better to get another unit of infantry or something so people still aren't allowing them as they make fights easy.

Its not fair to ban artillery, its just another tool and is only effective if you know how and when to use it. Now people have near unbeatable builds and strategies that artillery would easily destroy. Artillery is part of the overall balance and taking it out breaks that balance and just encourages certain poor playstyles like camping and kiting that would be artillery's speciality to counter. Its like playing rock paper scissors without the rock, everyone goes for scissors, no one wins i.e you don't get an enjoyable game. With artillery you can get a greater range of playstyles and a more challenging, fun game.

I don't take any issue with facing off against Art, but I'm not particularly effective with it myself.

well art is generally fine - only exception is probably on desert maps - personally the fatigure makes it very hard to counter art on these maps and games seem to end up being france vs otto. games are also vurtually impossible if your ally is a noob. I actually tend to think art its almost expoiltive in a 2v2 on pyramids it is almost impossible to beat 2 france opponents with art on alliance 1 - setup and dont bother moving - its very hard to assault through the dunes and up that gradual incline with art firing at you and your stamina is gone by the time you get there / your light fatigue so quick in skirmish mode and if they are compressed your opponents art has a great target - even if you bring art you are still at a disadvantage as your opponent doesnt need to move their art and they have a slight height advantage. i would sooner play someone spamming 10 lights than 2 art on pyramids

Most other maps are generally workable - a lot easier to rush to counter and nulify anyone using art.

Grassy flat i tend to recommend new or novice players not to use art at all as it is just not effective on flats.

So i tend to just avoid art games on pryamids and grassy for sorta opposite reasons - fine with other maps in general

PS i think even a heavy otto melee/cav build is pretty easy to beat by a good player playing as france and entrenching on pyramids

oh if anyone has a plan or build to counter this strat - could you please post - i would be very interested

Originally Posted by terminator acheron

well art is generally fine - only exception is probably on desert maps - personally the fatigure makes it very hard to counter art on these maps and games seem to end up being france vs otto. games are also vurtually impossible if your ally is a noob. I actually tend to think art its almost expoiltive in a 2v2 on pyramids it is almost impossible to beat 2 france opponents with art on alliance 1 - setup and dont bother moving - its very hard to assault through the dunes and up that gradual incline with art firing at you and your stamina is gone by the time you get there / your light fatigue so quick in skirmish mode and if they are compressed your opponents art has a great target - even if you bring art you are still at a disadvantage as your opponent doesnt need to move their art and they have a slight height advantage. i would sooner play someone spamming 10 lights than 2 art on pyramids

I counter this statement with a link to a replay I did with Just4fun -TLG- in a 2v2 against [HM] Marsh and [HM] Bobby on Pyramids.

http://www.filefront.com/17610737/1v1 just4fun.replay

Originally Posted by ccqwert7

Yes, but when NTW first came out, most people felt like giving art another try and went with No Fixed.
When I left about 6 months ago, No fixed max 2 art was something of the norm.

Yeah, those were the days. I kind of not noticed because no art snuck in.

Originally Posted by terminator acheron

only exception is probably on desert maps - personally the fatigure makes it very hard to counter art on these maps

Very good point. Especially Pyramids is where all the camping, overdone exhaustion effects and deployment zone slope come together in a very bad combination.
Especially the exhaustion part is ridiculous now, I went against a corner camper on Syrian Hill the other day where my units where Tired after marching 3/4 of the map without even running... I also don't belong to the people who have the time to waste to let them rest, ultimately lost that match.

PS i think even a heavy otto melee/cav build is pretty easy to beat by a good player playing as france and entrenching on pyramids
oh if anyone has a plan or build to counter this strat - could you please post - i would be very interested

As a thought experiment, haven't tried it out: a non-cav build with art might actually work.
Horses are easiest art targets and need to run to make full use of their potential, so are easily tired. Plus, the additional inf should be able to soak the damage.
I'm thinking Ottomans with some melee units; they have the very heavy 18lber foot art too, second heaviest in game IIRC. I don't think one would need an actual meat shield, but taking mostly Beyliks instead of Ceemats should be enough.
Put your art on the larger hill (or, depending on his position, at least keep them in front to draw fire) and snipe at his cav and Old Guards.
Move your line up so that they take minimal hits (hidden by the dunes) but prevent him from maneuvering anywhere but back.
This should force him to either
a) take lots of damage from your artillery fire or
b) counterattack (to which you are in a position to react) or
c) retreat and huddle his troops together to be easier to surround ("camper-herding" ).
Again, this is purely theoretical .

Not against artillery, but would prefer having max 1 or 2 non fixed art pieces.

in fact the thing that annoys me more than artilery campers is people who ban artillery, and then camp besides buildings packed with grenadiers or elite guard units.

People who ban art tend to kite more, they take Prussia for that power range then just fire and run. A good unit of art would kill their whole tactic.

Originally Posted by Tyler_the_Great

People who ban art tend to kite more, they take Prussia for that power range then just fire and run. A good unit of art would kill their whole tactic.

Huntsman ban art now and again

do they kite?

Originally Posted by Preatorians100

Huntsman ban art now and again

do they kite?

...............................................................

people do it so that noobs dont spam art and kite and camp with it.

Alot of ppl actually host no fix max 2 art max 5 lights
and if u dont lke their host's rules host your own

simple

what is the formal definition of kiting?

Originally Posted by Titus Maximius Thongus

what is the formal definition of kiting?

Let's pull out the ole' NTW Dictionary :

Kiting-Verb- "The act of waiting until an opponent is in range,firing,and then pulling back so as to get more shots off.It may also apply,though not directly,to someone pulling back,reforming,and then advancing again."

Used by: Noobs, Disorganized armies,anyone who has lost and is delaying The inevitable
Counters: Cav charges, Longer ranged/superior skirmishers,artillery

Originally Posted by AqwertyBqwerty

Let's pull out the ole' NTW Dictionary :

Kiting-Verb- "The act of waiting until an opponent is in range,firing,and then pulling back so as to get more shots off.It may also apply,though not directly,to someone pulling back,reforming,and then advancing again."

In the general "Gamer's Bible", it says
"kiting [v,t] - maintaining a general backward motion away from an approaching enemy in order to make use of superior range or supportive fire to minimize own losses".

Originally Posted by AqwertyBqwerty

Let's pull out the ole' NTW Dictionary :

Kiting-Verb- "The act of waiting until an opponent is in range,firing,and then pulling back so as to get more shots off.It may also apply,though not directly,to someone pulling back,reforming,and then advancing again."

Used by: Noobs, Disorganized armies,anyone who has lost and is delaying The inevitable
Counters: Cav charges, Longer ranged/superior skirmishers,artillery

I've seen pros do this before and I do it if I'm playing with a random and he sucks too much to actually win a head-on charge. I also use it when I realize the enemy's weakness is that they try to play a team match as a 1v1, meaning they attack only the guy in front of them and if I'm losing, I can just run around the map and harass while my team holds their enemies while tearing my advancing enemy to bits.

tl;dr, Arty was banned because
1. It ruined no-brain kiting
2. People didn't like static games on desert maps
3. Steam has finished downloading Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War II


Only No.2 seems to have sense to me, doesn't explain why arty was banned in other game types.