The Hellenic States

[Lanjane]

Furthermore, Thrace now has a total of four temples,, removing the Ares Temple, and adding ones of Kotys (War), Bendis (Hunting), and Sabazios (Law).

Sabazios (our topic member) will be happy to see his own temple in RTW
Not bad thracian roster, surely much better than vanilla. I've never played as thrace btw (don't like the color) Hmm... What about changing their faction color? (and reskinning units to fit it)?

[Sabazios]

Sabazios (our topic member) will be happy to see his own temple in RTW

Obey my laws!

I once captured some babarian town in Rise of Persia which aso had a shrine to me. Had a good laugh then.


Some thoughts:
Make Thureophoroi slightly better than heavy peltast. Hastati should be able to kill them with ease. Their spears should make them good counters against light and medium cavalry.

The LP infantry should have spears. Carthage now already has a decent sword unit in the Scutari. Carthage should remain more of a cavalry based faction imo, where the main role of the infantry is to pin the enemy. They dont need to be able to defeat Roman legions, just hold them in place.

The Sacred Band should definately have phalanx abillity.

The faction colour of Thrace is fine by me, but i wouldnt have a bit of trouble to see another colour there.


@debux
to edit the road files, see my post few pages back.

[Spartan198]

Some thoughts:
Make Thureophoroi slightly better than heavy peltast. Hastati should be able to kill them with ease.

I disagree, I think Thureophoroi should be put more or less on par with Hastati, considering both are light melee infantry. Thorakitai should be as such with Principes, being that Thorakitai are up-armored Thureophoroi in the same manner as Principes are basically up-armored Hastati. Hoplites and Triarii are pretty much the same type of soldier, just named differently.

[Aleksander the Average]

Just keep all phalanx based units (Sacred Band, Illyrian Hopites etc) with the ability to form the vanilla phalanx. Less balancing issues and more vanilla feel.

personally, i think it works well how it is. we can all change this setting for ourselves in our own games. for example... i take away the phalanx ability for milita and give them, as well as illyrian hoplites, LP infantry, and sacred band, the shield wall.

Despite the fact Liby-Phoenicians have spears, they use light_spear attribute and they haven't any penalties vs. infantry; you may check export_descr_unit to see. And their secondary weapon is a sword already, so in general they should be pretty effective if used against roman pre-marian troops.
Also, I'll add another unit to Carthage, heavy celtiberian infantry (superior heavy swordsmen, maybe with heavy javelins) to dockyard.

what do you think of making the spear secondary though?

also, i think carthage has enough good infantry... they don't need to be on par with the legions... but perhaps you can give this heavy celtiberian to spain instead.

I disagree, I think Thureophoroi should be put more or less on par with Hastati, considering both are light melee infantry. Thorakitai should be as such with Principes, being that Thorakitai are up-armored Thureophoroi in the same manner as Principes are basically up-armored Hastati. Hoplites and Triarii are pretty much the same type of soldier, just named differently.

agree. but make them harder to get so that we don't end up with too many 'greek legions' put them in in city and army barracks and make them a little more expensive than hastati/principes.

[Sabazios]

I disagree, I think Thureophoroi should be put more or less on par with Hastati, considering both are light melee infantry. Thorakitai should be as such with Principes, being that Thorakitai are up-armored Thureophoroi in the same manner as Principes are basically up-armored Hastati. Hoplites and Triarii are pretty much the same type of soldier, just named differently.

AFAIK Hastati had better armor (bronze breastplate and some even greaves). Thureophoroi had no armor at all. Basically just peltasts whith larger shields and spears. Them having less armor and a spear should mean that hastati could defeat them whitout much trouble in melee. I think they should have the stats of the illyrian mercenaries, but due to them having spears being able to fight better against cavalry.

But thats just my 50 cents

[Aleksander the Average]

AFAIK Hastati had better armor (bronze breastplate and some even greaves). Thureophoroi had no armor at all. Basically just peltasts whith larger shields and spears. Them having less armor and a spear should mean that hastati could defeat them whitout much trouble in melee. I think they should have the stats of the illyrian mercenaries, but due to them having spears being able to fight better against cavalry.

But thats just my 50 cents

that may be true historically, but after all... we are keeping the incendiary pigs and stuff...

Preview of some units from a future minipatch (some reskins - thracian bastarnae, merc bastarnae, merc illyrians, and a whole new unit thureophoroi).
Some texture parts and a model of thracian bastarnae came from an old, but great russian mod 'Barbarians Revenge' by Alxcruel and Dick. An unit library of this mod is generously offered for free use without a special permission. UI's by me.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

also... this guy looks more like an up-armored thureophoros... (linothorax with scale) which would put him at least close to any hastatus in stats. i would agree if were to lower the attack slightly and increased the charge bonus.

-- these soldiers should be at least close to hastati.
i would say give them better armor, less defense skill, and close to an equivalent shield fpr defense.

they would already be limited by their cost and their needing to be recruited at city barracks. i think this is hampering enough.

[Achea]

Personally, I think that the color is quite unique and keeping it would retain that vanilla feel. Also, most colors (as in red, blue, yellow, not shades) have been used up already. That being said, you can certainly change it if you want, considering you are the one making the minpatches.

One other thing, I would suggest giving the LP Infantry a sword and getting rid of the spear. Carthage already has the Libyan Spearmen to effectively combat cavalry and having the spear puts the LPs at a considerable disadvantage when facing sword based infantry.

[Aleksander the Average]

I've never played as thrace btw (don't like the color) Hmm... What about changing their faction color? (and reskinning units to fit it)?

i have seen them changed to a color more akin to numidia's. it was okay looking. what about something more organic like forest green or light brown?

edit: but if anything, make it an optional minipatch.

One other thing, I would suggest giving the LP Infantry a sword and getting rid of the spear. Carthage already has the Libyan Spearmen to effectively and having the spear puts the LPs at a considerable disadvantage when facing sword based infantry.

try the secondary weapon. and we wouldn't want to disadvantage them against cavalry, would we?

[Achea]

The sword is already a secondary weapon. My point is that the LP Infantry are supposed to plug the heavy infantry hole in Carthage's roster, and having a spear makes them loose fights against units of similar quality armed only with a sword, making them fairly useless. And their stats are good enough that they are more than a match for most heavy cavalry in the game, with or without the sword.

[Aleksander the Average]

Lanjane: i remember the thing to give infantry units the wedge... it is for ETW... and it doesn't actually use the wedge button, it just changes their formation.

The sword is already a secondary weapon. My point is that the LP Infantry are supposed to plug the heavy infantry hole in Carthage's roster, and having a spear makes them loose fights against units of similar quality armed only with a sword, making them fairly useless. And their stats are good enough that they are more than a match for most heavy cavalry in the game, with or without the sword.

i see the reason in your argument. for gameplay reasons, what you say makes sense.
i hereby rescind my previous suggestion, and support giving LP infantry swords as aprimary.
perhaps they could receive spears as a secondary weapon? it might make things interesting. as long as they don't get javelins...

edit: also... would anyone else be in support of landbridges for this mod?
i don't know how to do it... but i can figure it out i'm sure

[debux]

About what alexander the avarage and Achea have said, I kind of agree that a more superior sword infantry should be given to Carthage. I personally haven't been able to test Scutarii in my campaign, but I doubt they'll stand up to the likes of Principes, or legions further into the game. So I'd suggest the following.

Barracks: Town Militia
Militia Barracks: Lybian Spearmen
City Barracks: Poeni Infantry, Scutarii
Army Barracks: Sacred Band (without phalanx, to rely more on poeni infantry as the main line infantry, if you want to go with phalanx-based armies)

Port: /
Shipright: Poeni Archers, Balearic Slingers
Dockyard: Liby-Poeni Infantry (based on the current one, but with swords.)

That way Carthage could only get a decent army on the Minor City phase, and get pretty elite units on the Large City phase. And the Balearic Slingers were added for a bit more reliance on slingers, which were a vital component of Carthage's armies. Oh, and Carthage would have great anti-cav weapons with both Poeni and the more mobile although much more expensive Sacred Band.

And about the other factions, I think Pontus and Athropane should get paved roads (if they don't have them, but I think Lanjane has his hands full with Skinning, I might try to get into the mysterious ways of modding by taking my first step there ), the thrace rooster looks pretty great (although the levy pikement could be placed in between the militia hoplites and the phalanx pikemen, I fell there's a gap in between there), the new Pontic Bodyguard looks awesome, and I'd have to make an entirely new post relating the Succesors armies balancing, I also need to think out before making any suggestions.

[Achea]

Just keep all phalanx based units (Sacred Band, Illyrian Hopites etc) with the ability to form the vanilla phalanx. Less balancing issues and more vanilla feel.

[Lanjane]

Despite the fact Liby-Phoenicians have spears, they use light_spear attribute and they haven't any penalties vs. infantry; you may check export_descr_unit to see. And their secondary weapon is a sword already, so in general they should be pretty effective if used against roman pre-marian troops.
Also, I'll add another unit to Carthage, heavy celtiberian infantry (superior heavy swordsmen, maybe with heavy javelins) to dockyard.

[Cinuz]

I think that the thracians colour is okay, and i agree in giving them the thracian infantry (but with a reskin...that pectoral is italic, not greek...) and the thracian nobles from thrace:the serpent reborn...

[debux]

Can we mod Carthage's cavalry now ?
I personally think Sacred Band is quite hard to get, maybe we could make Long Shield Cavalry a bit heavier, so that Spain also gets a heavy cav unit. Maybe based on EB's Iberi Lanceari (the heaviest cav avaible for carthage in iberia), with the chainmail and stuff, kinda like westerner cataphracts

Thanks Sabazios BTW

[Lanjane]

Preview of some units from a future minipatch (some reskins - thracian bastarnae, merc bastarnae, merc illyrians, and a whole new unit thureophoroi).
Some texture parts and a model of thracian bastarnae came from an old, but great russian mod 'Barbarians Revenge' by Alxcruel and Dick. An unit library of this mod is generously offered for free use without a special permission. UI's by me.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Sabazios]

Excellent work, very nice units! The thureophoroi have a bit to much armor for my taste, but the model makes up for it big time

Love the bastarnae units!

btw with this model, forget my post about stats

[Valkar]

Preview of some units from a future minipatch (some reskins - thracian bastarnae, merc bastarnae, merc illyrians, and a whole new unit thureophoroi).
Some texture parts and a model of thracian bastarnae came from an old, but great russian mod 'Barbarians Revenge' by Alxcruel and Dick. An unit library of this mod is generously offered for free use without a special permission. UI's by me.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Check my profile, it has a picture of a historic good bastarnae.. These are vanilla and the vanilla bastarnae suck.

[Spartan198]

AFAIK Hastati had better armor (bronze breastplate and some even greaves). Thureophoroi had no armor at all. Basically just peltasts whith larger shields and spears. Them having less armor and a spear should mean that hastati could defeat them whitout much trouble in melee. I think they should have the stats of the illyrian mercenaries, but due to them having spears being able to fight better against cavalry.

But thats just my 50 cents

They did have breastplates, as EB portrayed their Polybian Hastati with them. But said breastplates don't look like they provide as much protection as a linothorax would.


That's why I suggested putting Thureophoroi and Hastati on par with each other. But I think that since Hastati used bigger shields, they should get a higher shield rating than Thureophoroi. Thureophoroi, on the other hand, getting the advantage against cavalry with their spears (as you suggested) would presumably balance them out.

[Sabazios]

yes, with the model Linjane made that is the best solution, but in my previous post i was referening to non armored thureophoroi, like these for example: