The Hellenic States

[Apollyon]

what about using the light thureophoroi to replace heavy peltasts, and the heavy thureophoroi as multipurpose infantry recruited at city barracks... i don't like the port idea personally

The Heavy Peltasts are the thureophoroi of vanilla.

[Cinuz]

The Heavy Peltasts are the thureophoroi of vanilla.

Yeah, quite right

[Sabazios]

Maybe the heavy thureophoroi could be mercenaries then?


Something totally different. I was looking at the Ptolemies and noticed two things:
- they can only recruit peasants in Alexandria. This could be one of the reason why they are struggeling against the Antigonids. How about putting militia barracks and stables there?

- Nile spearmen cost 360 and phalanx pikemen 580. The only difference between them is that Nile spearmen have just 1 attack less, but get a dessert bonus. I think their shield defence should be reduced from 5 to 2 like the other pikemen. This way they will fill the gap between levies and phalanx pikemen.

[Cinuz]

I don't know...I'd use only the lighter version for the Thureophoroi...We had to remember that they were different from the thorakitai for this reason: the were the light troop, while the thorakitai were their heavier counterpart..

[Achea]

Light Thuereophoroi should repace Heavy peltasts for all factions, and Heavy Thuereophoroi should be recruitable only by the GCS in Dockyard.

[Sabazios]

Light Thuereophoroi should repace Heavy peltasts for all factions, and Heavy Thuereophoroi should be recruitable only by the GCS in Dockyard.

I think the GCS are the only faction with heavy peltasts. So with that in mind, giving the heavy thuereophoroi only to GCS would be fair imo. The light thuereophoroi for all successors except Massalia, who already have stronger gallic skirmishers?

@debux
seleucids in my campaign get an beating from armenia and atropatene, but i doubt that an alliance with ptolemies will help them there. Maybe we run ahead of things here and should wait till the rosters are done, so we can do some testing and balancing then.

[debux]

I think it's safe to say that the heavy thureophoroi are thoraktai... after all they're almost the same excepting for their armor and their roles... I'm thinking they're almost unnecessary, but they could be the counter balance for legionaries, securing the flanks. Since they are pretty strong, I'd put them in the Army Barracks, limiting their recruitment a bit. I think the dockyard is pretty easy to get, especially since Greece has a great naval trade

To what Sabazios said, maybe the nubian axemen (or how ever they were called) should be added to the ptolemies rooster, to give them a bit more of a chance (if they get eaten up by the antigonids). And I was looking at the selucids, and it seems that they're starting positions are also quite weak. Maybe the starting cities of both factions could be strengthened, or maybe they could start with an alliance together with those factions that faced Antigonus, although I'm not sure if I'm in the right time frame

[Achea]

I think the dockyard is pretty easy to get, especially since Greece has a great naval trade

You need a large city to get dockyard. Thats pretty limiting. Naval trade has nothing to do with it.

[debux]

Oh lol, forgot shipwright was between there... but don't higher tier port give more trade lanes, increasing your income?

BTW Achea, are you in the dev team of The Greek Wars? I remember seeing you in their forums

[Sabazios]

Oh lol, forgot shipwright was between there... but don't higher tier port give more trade lanes, increasing your income?

yes they do, but i think what Achea meant was that they still have to get an large city and build dockard first to get the units and naval trade doenst infuence you populaion growth.

[Aleksander the Average]

okay. what if the GCS get heavy thureophoroi - which are essentially cheaper more available thorakitai - in city barracks, and give the successors and maybe even pontus (who hired them often) the light thureophoroi in one of the ranges.

[debux]

Wait, there's gonna be light thureophoroi, heavy thureophoroi and thoraktai?

[Lanjane]

My suggestion is to add light and heavy thureophoroi instead of peltasts and heavy peltasts, respectively; Overall situation will be in the following way (if I won't create something unique for Antigonids, Seleucid, Greek Cities and Lysimachia)
(old line - ....peltasts..... ....heavy peltasts....)
replacements:
Epirus - ....italic skirmishers.... ....heavy thureophoroi....
Macedon - ....thureophoroi.... ....agrianian skirmishers (new)....
Pontus - ....pontic skirmishers (new).... ....heavy thureophoroi....
Seleucid, Greek Cities, Antigonid, Lysimachia - ....thureophoroi.... ....heavy thureophoroi....
Massalia - ...barb peltasts... ....heavy thureophoroi....
Ptolemaics - ....nubian axemen (skirmishers)(new).... ....heavy thureophoroi....

[Cinuz]

My suggestion is to add light and heavy thureophoroi instead of peltasts and heavy peltasts, respectively; Overall situation will be in the following way (if I won't create something unique for Antigonids, Seleucid, Greek Cities and Lysimachia)
(old line - ....peltasts..... ....heavy peltasts....)
replacements:
Epirus - ....italic skirmishers.... ....heavy thureophoroi....
Macedon - ....thureophoroi.... ....agrianian skirmishers (new)....
Pontus - ....pontic skirmishers (new).... ....heavy thureophoroi....
Seleucid, Greek Cities, Antigonid, Lysimachia - ....thureophoroi.... ....heavy thureophoroi....
Massalia - ...barb peltasts... ....heavy thureophoroi....
Ptolemaics - ....nubian axemen (skirmishers)(new).... ....heavy thureophoroi....

I agree with Lanjane

[Sabazios]

I would prefer to see the regular peltasts still available in practice range (at least for the faction bordering the aegean sea at start). Both thureophoroi could then be placed in barracks.

Light thureophoroi are to strong with their spears to replace the peltasts in practice range. I just think they will be to strong for that tier and unbalance the game early on. When you put the light thureophoroi in archery range, lots of facion will not have any ranged units in early game stage at all if you remove the peltasts.

The heavy thureophoroi should definately be in barracks imo. The are way to heavy to be real skirmishers. I think it would be best to take skirmish abilty away from them and to give them only 2 javelins.

[Cinuz]

Maybe something as this could be done:
(old line - ....peltasts..... ....heavy peltasts....)
replacements:
Epirus - ....peltasts.... ....italic skirmishers....
Macedon - ....peltasts.... ....agrianian skirmishers (new)....
Pontus - ....peltasts.... ....pontic skirmishers (new)....
Seleucid, Greek Cities, Antigonid, Lysimachia - ....peltasts.... ....light thureophoroi....
Massalia - ...barb peltasts... ....light thureophoroi....
Ptolemaics - ....peltasts.... ....nubian axemen (skirmishers)(new)....

So quite everyone will have some sort of top tier skirmisher's unit...

The heavy thureophoroi could be used as a unique unit for, I don't know, the Illyrians...like Illyrians skirmishers, or Illyrians infantry...

[Sabazios]

Maybe something as this could be done:
(old line - ....peltasts..... ....heavy peltasts....)
replacements:
Epirus - ....peltasts.... ....italic skirmishers....
Macedon - ....peltasts.... ....agrianian skirmishers (new)....
Pontus - ....peltasts.... ....pontic skirmishers (new)....
Seleucid, Greek Cities, Antigonid, Lysimachia - ....peltasts.... ....light thureophoroi....
Massalia - ...barb peltasts... ....light thureophoroi....
Ptolemaics - ....peltasts.... ....nubian axemen (skirmishers)(new)....

So quite everyone will have some sort of top tier skirmisher's unit...

The heavy thureophoroi could be used as a unique unit for, I don't know, the Illyrians...like Illyrians skirmishers, or Illyrians infantry...

Yes, this would be much better i think. Also I like the Illyrian infantry idea. They could be used together with the Illyrian hoplite Lanjane made before as the top tier units for their hellenic barracks.

[Aleksander the Average]

Maybe something as this could be done:
(old line - ....peltasts..... ....heavy peltasts....)
replacements:
Epirus - ....peltasts.... ....italic skirmishers....
Macedon - ....peltasts.... ....agrianian skirmishers (new)....
Pontus - ....peltasts.... ....pontic skirmishers (new)....
Seleucid, Greek Cities, Antigonid, Lysimachia - ....peltasts.... ....light thureophoroi....
Massalia - ...barb peltasts... ....light thureophoroi....
Ptolemaics - ....peltasts.... ....nubian axemen (skirmishers)(new)....

So quite everyone will have some sort of top tier skirmisher's unit...

The heavy thureophoroi could be used as a unique unit for, I don't know, the Illyrians...like Illyrians skirmishers, or Illyrians infantry...

if we do this, we should put heavy thureophoroi in city barracks for factions that are hellenized barbarians... Illyrians, Thracians, Massilia, and also the GCS... as the only civilized adopters of the troop type. i think this should balance gameplay on the campaign map especially.

also since ptolomeys had up-armored thureophoroi as a royal guard... maybe they can be for them too, but with the leadership trait (eagle) or better stats or something.

[Cinuz]

(old line - ....peltasts..... ....heavy peltasts....)
replacements:
Epirus - ....peltasts.... ....italic skirmishers....
Macedon - ....peltasts.... ....agrianian skirmishers (new)....
Pontus - ....peltasts.... ....pontic skirmishers (new)....
Seleucid, Greek Cities, Antigonid, Lysimachia - ....peltasts.... ....light thureophoroi....
Massalia - ...barb peltasts... ....light thureophoroi....
Ptolemaics - ....peltasts.... ....nubian axemen (skirmishers)(new)....
Illyria - ....peltasts (or whatever they have).... ....Heavy thureophoroi (as Illyrian infantry)

I propose this again


Also, I would like to share with you this two files:

The export descr unit file has got a little change in the massalian swordsmen stats so that now they have a better morale and they can make use of the warcry (WARNING: by using this file, you'll remve the phalanx formations from some unit, check my prvious upload for mroe info)

With the export descr building you'll now be able to recruit the barbarian swordsmen even when using massalia (i've noticed that it wasn't possible because comrade_general forgot to add the unit to the massalian recruiting buildings)

Put this files in THS/data/

[Achea]

BTW Achea, are you in the dev team of The Greek Wars? I remember seeing you in their forums

Nope, I just help where I can.

I think the GCS are the only faction with heavy peltasts.

Are they? I thought Comrade_general added them to several other factions. Could be wrong, though.

My suggestion is to add light and heavy thureophoroi instead of peltasts and heavy peltasts, respectively

The Heavy Thureophoroi seem a bit to armoured to be peltasts, IMO. Do you need descriptions?

EDIT: Are these these the Agrianian Skirmishers (minus the bug in the torso texture)? Great job regardless.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: