Holocaust card / Holocaust card card

[alhoon]

...
He was asked whether anti-semitism is a factor in the government of the UK's anti-Zionist stance, and he implied his answer in a way that could be seen as an attack on the British and not an innocent answer.
The government didn't publicly declare the report to be anti-semetic, it was just some Likudnik settler who was given the job of Minister of Information and Diaspora by Natenyahu.
...
villified, maybe. Labeled anti-semites? Only on rare occasions by radicals which then become the centre of holocaust-cardists (people who believe in the holocaust card as a substantial legitimacy claim by Zionists) in anti-Israel blogs and eventually the international media.

On the other hand, in nearly all Israel-related threads you will see at-least one person (though on average it's 17) who claims that Zionists use the holocaust as legitimacy to war-crimes.
...
No true Zionist would dare disrespect the Holocaust like that by using it as a base for legitimacy to crimes, it's a myth that exists for the sole purpose of making people hate us.

Based on the above post I would like to know what the people in this forum think about it.



MY OPINION

Holocaust card: Yes, Israelis tend to use the Holocaust and their long history of being persecuted in arguments. NOTE: Whether you believe the Israelis overplay it or not is where you draw the line. I haven't the mentality of a people that within living memory were hunted down and executed so I can't say for sure.
However, I do believe that sometimes, Israelis are over-eager to draw comparisons with a world that hated them and hunted them in the previous century, when mentalities have changed considerably. Whether Israel does something really, really reprehensible and the UN points fingers, at least some of them tend to use the holocaust card.

Holocaust card card: Yes, a lot of people think the Israelis play the Holocaust card too often IMO. There are times when someone in TWC or in discussion claims "Oh, they had / they'll cry "but we suffered the holocaust!" when Israel doesn't. Also I've seen rebuffing solid arguments with the holocaust card card, dismissing them as either Israeli paranoia or Israeli capitalizing on the suffering of the Jews in the 40s.

[Dewy]

Why do people use Jew and Israeli interchangeable and wrong to?

I don't believe that Israelis (should be Jews as not all Israelis are Jewish) tend to over-use the Holocaust to promote their agenda. I also believe some people cry "wolf" / cry "Holocaust card!" too often.

I have never seen the Jews overuse the holocaust to promote their agenda. Using the Holocaust as a reason for the State of Israel is perfectly reasonable.

[wilpuri]

Why do people use Jew and Israeli interchangeable and wrong to?

I don't believe that Israelis (should be Jews as not all Israelis are Jewish) tend to over-use the Holocaust to promote their agenda. I also believe some people cry "wolf" / cry "Holocaust card!" too often.

I have never seen the Jews overuse the holocaust to promote their agenda. Using the Holocaust as a reason for the State of Israel is perfectly reasonable.

How many non-Jewish Israelis do you see invoking the anti-semitism clause?

[alhoon]

Hey! I didn't use Jew and Israel interchangably!

[Dewy]

Hey! I didn't use Jew and Israel interchangably!

Yes, Israelis tend to use the Holocaust and their long history of being persecuted in arguments.

Oh I forgot Israel was around in WWII, my bad.

[alhoon]

Oh I forgot Israel was around in WWII, my bad.

I didn't say Israel was around in WW2. I just said they capitalize sometimes on the suffering of Jews in WW2.

I don't believe that Israelis (should be Jews as not all Israelis are Jewish) tend to over-use the Holocaust to promote their agenda. I also believe some people cry "wolf" / cry "Holocaust card!" too often.

I have never seen the Jews overuse the holocaust to promote their agenda. Using the Holocaust as a reason for the State of Israel is perfectly reasonable.

No, it shouldn't be Jews since a LOT of Jews live outside Israel, I'm talking about the goverment of Israel and Israelis. Not Jews.
Also I agree that Holocaust as one of the reasons is reasonable. Although IMO the best reason for the state of Israel is ... Jews are in Jerusalem for long, long, long time.

[Dewy]

I didn't say Israel was around in WW2. I just said they capitalize sometimes on the suffering of Jews in WW2.

No you did not say that, you said Israelis were in the holocaust meaning Israel was around during WWII.

No, it shouldn't be Jews since a LOT of Jews live outside Israel, I'm talking about the goverment of Israel and Israelis. Not Jews.
Also I agree that Holocaust as one of the reasons is reasonable.

Israelis tend to use the Holocaust and their long history of being persecuted in arguments

Israel wasn't around during WWII so that leaves the holocaust out and they don't have a long history. If your talking about Israeli Jews you have to say so other wise yes you used Israeli and Jew interchangeably in a way that is incorrect. Just admit that you used Israeli and Jew interchangeably instead of denying something that is quite clearly obvious.

P.S The Israel government isn't just Jews so the Israel government doesn't use the holocaust card since not all has ancestry in the holocaust.

Although IMO the best reason for the state of Israel is ... Jews are in Jerusalem for long, long, long time.

Jews in Jerusalem is a horrible reason for the state of Israel.

[alhoon]

No you did not say that, you said Israelis were in the holocaust meaning Israel was around during WWII.

Where exactly I said that? I just said Israelis use the Holocaust a lot and the fact that Jews were prosecuted for a long, long time in arguments. How "Israelis use Holocaust" = "Israels were around in the holocaust"?

If your talking about Israeli Jews you have to say so other wise yes you used Israeli and Jew interchangeably in a way that is incorrect. Just admit that you used Israeli and Jew interchangeably instead of denying something that is quite clearly obvious.

Yes, I was talking about Israeli Jews and I'm pretty sure it was obvious. No I didn't use Israeli and Jew interchangably since I wasn't talking about Jews in USA, Europe, Australia etc.

P.S The Israel government isn't just Jews so the Israel government doesn't use the holocaust card since not all has ancestry in the holocaust.

By Holocaust card I mean the whole sympathy card and "the whole world hate us!" card. Like what the Israeli goverment replied when the UN reminded them that it's illegal to board ships in international waters.

Jews in Jerusalem is a horrible reason for the state of Israel.

How so?

Greeks in Greece was the reason for the state of Greece and why we rebelled against the Turks fighting for indipendance. Slovacs in Slovakia and Czechs in Czechia are the reasons for the Czech republic and the Slovak republic and why they broke Chechoslovakia up to two countries.
So, IMO, Jews in Israel = good reason for state of Israel. Now, there are also Palestinians there so that means Israeli Jews and Palestinians should work that one out.

[Blaze86420]

Of course they do. And its really annoying.

[Ayleid]

Can I explain why I voted 'something else'? I voted that way as I believe that Jewish people should be allowed a certain ammount of flexibility, seeing as the holocaust was horrific. But I don't think that we should be detracting from the 'Holocaust Card' simply because of Israel's policy, of late. I disagree with Israel playing the card of late (if they have), personally, as it would appear they are just doing onto others what was done to them. But, at the same time, the card shouldn't be played in a situation that Israel is in, anyway. It's just irrelevant. It's pointless.

But let's not forget here, over 5 million jews were systematically executed and persecuted.. That is enough of a reason to not degrade the Holocaust. But when both sides throw it about, they are doing exactly that.

[alhoon]

Can I explain why I voted 'something else'? I voted that way as I believe that Jewish people should be allowed a certain ammount of flexibility, seeing as the holocaust was horrific. But I don't think that we should be detracting from the 'Holocaust Card' simply because of Israel's policy, of late. I disagree with Israel playing the card of late (if they have), personally, as it would appear they are just doing onto others what was done to them. But, at the same time, the card shouldn't be played in a situation that Israel is in, anyway. It's just irrelevant. It's pointless.

But let's not forget here, over 5 million jews were systematically executed and persecuted.. That is enough of a reason to not degrade the Holocaust. But when both sides throw it about, they are doing exactly that.

Well, that was IMO included in the first option.

[PointOfViewGun]

Based on the above post I would like to know what the people in this forum think about it.

MY OPINION

Holocaust card: Yes, Israelis tend to use the Holocaust and their long history of being persecuted in arguments. NOTE: Whether you believe the Israelis overplay it or not is where you draw the line. I haven't the mentality of a people that within living memory were hunted down and executed so I can't say for sure.
However, I do believe that sometimes, Israelis are over-eager to draw comparisons with a world that hated them and hunted them in the previous century, when mentalities have changed considerably. Whether Israel does something really, really reprehensible and the UN points fingers, at least some of them tend to use the holocaust card.

Holocaust card card: Yes, a lot of people think the Israelis play the Holocaust card too often IMO. There are times when someone in TWC or in discussion claims "Oh, they had / they'll cry "but we suffered the holocaust!" when Israel doesn't. Also I've seen rebuffing solid arguments with the holocaust card card, dismissing them as either Israeli paranoia or Israeli capitalizing on the suffering of the Jews in the 40s.

It's not the Holocaust card but the victim and the we've been prosecuted more than others card that's is played too much.

[Angrychris]

Get rid of religion and problem solved.

[Nikos]

Get rid of religion and problem solved.

Bah. Man will always find a reason to fight with one and other, if not for religion then something else. The problem here isn't religion per se it's that thousands of people (The Jews who would become Israelis) were dropped in the middle of the Levant. Christians, Muslims and Jews had been living in the Levant for hundreds of years in relative peace, but the influx of Eastern European Jews brought a "culture shock" to the area.

[CamilleBonparte]

Get rid of religion and problem solved.

Yes just like the paradises of Soviet Russia, Communist China, and Pol Pot's Cambodia.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

If any body ever uses the holocaust card ill torment them and get myself a warning as i think putting people in gas chambers is sick.And to use that card to make all western europe feel bad or to win a argument is insulting to the dead.FFS i cant even watch shindlers lost without my eyes leaking water.Many jews fled to ireland to excape during ww2 and i even had a old man who was a german jew live 2 doors away from me who had to come to ireland to be safe as we were not in the war.They settled in and kept there own communitie together.To say that we in europe are all against the jews and the holocaust if proof is a sham as many jews live happy in other european countrys.I still dont understand why israel has a siege mentality against the whole world when its only realy the arab nations that hate you.Alot of people in the west and the UN are not happy with certain things we see in relation to the israels government and zionists.I see on the news in france uk ireland usa condeming israel and see un sanctions being made and think is israel guilty of these things?

[Sir Pignans]

They do play the holocaust card too often in my opionion, simply because, they have played upon it to win sympathies.

It was not a suitable justification for the creation of a state of Israel either.

Sure it was a catastrophe and a horrible thing.

But that does not justify the creation of there state at others expense.

[Phier]

I believe the holocaust is ample reason for the Israelis wanting Israel to remain a Jewish state.

Its not exactly ancient history.

[Claudius Gothicus]

I believe the holocaust is ample reason for the Israelis wanting Israel to remain a Jewish state.

Its not exactly ancient history.

Problem is when the ''victim card'' is brought up in every ing discussion regarding the ME as a way of exempting them of any blame in anything. Kinda like establishing an absolute truth trough victimization.

(I'll admit that this happens only in rare occasions however)

[Phier]

Problem is when the ''victim card'' is brought up in every ing discussion regarding the ME as a way of exempting them of any blame in anything. Kinda like establishing an absolute truth trough victimization.

(I'll admit that this happens only in rare occasions however)

I think the 'Holocaust' card is far more a problem for anti-Israeli types than its really used. I've never heard the holocaust brought up in defending US policy and Israel in my life at an official level. I'm not saying at some point it hasn't been used by someone, but its not really an issue.

I think its just one of those things to annoy those who wish to see Israel destroyed since it does generate some sympathy. Thats why you get holocaust denial conferences in Islamic nations.