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  1. #1
    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
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    Default A discussion on contemporary media culture

    Lately I've grown more and more concerned with the way our media operates. This isn't because the media suddenly changed, but rather because my perception did.

    I've spent a lot of years, basically ever since I became politically aware at about age twelve, staunchly picking a side and sticking to it until for whatever reason I changed my mind. You swing from one extreme to the other and where I was a rabid leftwinger from age fifteen to nineteen, I changed slowly to more right wing thinking from age twenty until about a year or so. Now I'm twentyfour and I'm stuck in the middle, but not in the classical sense. I'll get to how this all relates to our media culture.

    It seems to me that our current political landscape is divided between people who feel really strongly about A from side X and people who feel really strongly about A from side Y. That is to say, people hyperfocus on single issues and take a very extreme stance on either.

    The people who don't, and define themselves as "center leaning" are, in my experience, people who don't feel really strongly about either topic and would rather we'd start talking about something else. And then they discover they don't feel as strong about those subjects either.

    Because between the fringes of right and left thinkers, both of which are pretty well represented on these forums, is a huge mass of generally apathetic people.

    Now I don't think that it's fair to call it being a "centrist" if your stance on everything is just shrugging and being a relentless relativist. Nor do I think it's fair to consider the contemporary right and left the sides that one has to choose between, since I don't get the feeling either side is driven by an ideology anymore and are just people who agree to disagree on a whole load of specific topics because it keeps their faces in newspapers and on cameras.

    This is where our mediaculture comes in and how closely its related to politics. Obviously I'm not saying anything new here when I assert the link between these two. But what concerns me isn't discussing and defining this link per se, but more people's willingness to float along with the currents and be played like a tool for someone's own gain.

    There's a pretty clear division in our media that I have to make clear from the start. First, there's the political media culture that's dominated by left or right wing TV. America is the most obvious example with Fox on one side and MSNBC on the other, and to a lesser extent the same happens in Europe though news stations here don't have nearly the same level of rabid fanaticism displayed by these American channels. Then again, what we lack in fanaticism we make up for in apathy and this is where I distinguish the second part of our media culture namely the entertainment sector which excells in its stupidity.

    Between the news networks' insistence on giving us sensationalist, populist news with a blatant partisan color and the entertainment sector's insistence on spoonfeeding us shows like Jersey Shore, The Hills and ridiculous idiots like, well... like pretty much any artist on TV today, we're left with little choice in being a sane and rational human being.

    Because at the top of these media organisations stand millionaires and billionaires who laugh themselves all the way to the bank as we loyally buy into their latest editions of stupid. It's in their best interest in keep the partisan people partisan and the apathetic people apathetic. Does a terrific job at emulating a society in which political discourse takes place while keeping the people uninterested enough to figure out that they're actually living in the bloody Truman Show.

    And I see it on these forums too. People who I know are intellectually my equals if not better than that who so loyally take their position in the firing line for these channels. People who allow themselves to be defined by these billion dollar corporations that dictate what to say and what to think and who to believe and who to distrust. How can you have so little self respect as to willingly offer yourself as a supporter of someone who only sees you as a way to fill their own pockets?

    On Dutch TV we have a channel called Powned (I wish I was joking). I was watching this the other day and their sole journalist who hits the streets to interview people is known for, well.. being a jackass. But apparently this makes great TV. He went to the front door of Gretta Duisenberg, a famous Dutch sympathiser for the Palestinian cause, and after being all nice and kind to her for a minute or two he stabbed her in the back by suddenly calling her an anti-semite. For some reason this is funny. All I thought when watching it was that this sort of should be taken off public channels because it literally does nothing but stupidify us even further. There's no journalistic value to any of this but it's what passes for journalism nonetheless.

    What purpose is served by blatantly partisan TV? No purpose other than that of the people who own these stations. No society is helped by keeping it polarised and split, and where our politicians are intent on blaming one another for this divide, this only serves to demonstrate their lack of fundamental understanding of how our societies are now working. They stand at the beck and call of the media empires that portray them in whichever way they generate the largest revenue.

    Our societies are supposed to be democratic. By the people, for the people. But that notion is a thing of ages past it seems. Democracy and populism are nigh inseparable and there's a nasty streak of corporate business interests that underlines all of it. By willingly taking a side in either camp, be it left wing or right wing, you conform yourself to a society that you have not helped shape. Not directly, anyway, since in our collective herd-mentality we have failed to notice that under the pretense of this surface-level political division lies a massive well of disinterest.

    Today we're living in a society that's suffering from the effects of the law of the handicap of a headstart. We made the mistake of assuming that we're the end of civilisation. That once the point is reached that we are at, all is well. And yet it is precisely the ambition and motivation of those great minds that helped us get here that we lack, and so we may one day find that we are no longer at the top of the foodchain on this planet and that we've been overtaken by other cultures. Cultures who, I believe, can never be as good as we have been.

    For all our flaws and shortcomings, the West -is- the best we've done at crafting a fruitful civilisation. And for precisely that reason we should not consider ourselves the final destination of all culture, but rather the starting point of many good things yet to come. We cannot, however, be the starting point of anything if we can't talk ourselves out of the stupor we find ourselves in. We owe it to ourselves to reject and deny contemporary media its power and we owe it to ourselves to hold our politicians accountable for not having had the balls, or the inclination, to preserve the essence of democracy any sooner.

    If we all agree that the initial framework that our countries were built on, the roots of democracy and capitalism, are things worth preserving, then perhaps we should admit that we're all conservative to a certain degree. And that if that is true, the traditional notions of left and right wing absolutely lose any and all meaning. Because then the progressives are suddenly no longer those people who allow themselves to be classified as politically left wing, but those people who seek to wander our countries further and further from their roots for no progress but that of their own wallets.
    Last edited by The Dude; December 03, 2010 at 09:41 AM.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

  2. #2

    Default Re: A discussion on contemporary media culture

    The reason we have such a mediacracy is because of universal democracy to start with. It's a nice ideal and workable, but the problem is that politics are dumbed down for the masses. Politics turn into a contest for popularity rather than merit and the media becomes more important than personal, logical conclusions. It isn't as mucg a question of asking where we went wrong and looking back at the thinkers of the past as it is a fundamental flaw of universal suffrage. Unless you get everyone to be politically interested enough to make their own conclusions, and make the media objective, the issues you mentioned won't go away. The bulk of the population will remain politically uninterested and it will remain addicted to the frothing at the mouth political journalism and the prolefeed of mass media. It's a paradox that universal democracy allows for undemocratic government, as the bulk of the population remains subservient to the interests of a small minority.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  3. #3
    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: A discussion on contemporary media culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    The reason we have such a mediacracy is because of universal democracy to start with. It's a nice ideal and workable, but the problem is that politics are dumbed down for the masses. Politics turn into a contest for popularity rather than merit and the media becomes more important than personal, logical conclusions. It isn't as mucg a question of asking where we went wrong and looking back at the thinkers of the past as it is a fundamental flaw of universal suffrage. Unless you get everyone to be politically interested enough to make their own conclusions, and make the media objective, the issues you mentioned won't go away. The bulk of the population will remain politically uninterested and it will remain addicted to the frothing at the mouth political journalism and the prolefeed of mass media. It's a paradox that universal democracy allows for undemocratic government, as the bulk of the population remains subservient to the interests of a small minority.
    I pretty much agree with all of this, though I wonder if there is a way to counter this process. It is true that a democracy is much more honest in the first decades following a country's founding and then proceeds to gradually decline into populism, but what if we were to build a safety switch into the system where we would allow ourselves to put our nation up for review every three or four decades or so and reset things back to what they started out as?

    A fairly abstract notion at this point that would certainly need a lot of finetuning, but it's something that I've been thinking about. Imagine if we could one day just pull the plug on all current media networks and give the reins to new and ambitious people who are just as sick of the current media culture as everyone else who's done a bit of thinking on it.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

  4. #4

    Default Re: A discussion on contemporary media culture

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    I pretty much agree with all of this, though I wonder if there is a way to counter this process. It is true that a democracy is much more honest in the first decades following a country's founding and then proceeds to gradually decline into populism, but what if we were to build a safety switch into the system where we would allow ourselves to put our nation up for review every three or four decades or so and reset things back to what they started out as?
    Problem is that our democracy at it's founding was a discriminative system in which barely 10% of the population had voting rights. Even if we are able to implement such a system, it would certainly erode away back into a populist one over time. Universal democracy doesn't gradually descend into populism, it is inherently populistic. Ever since the turn of the 20th century and the expansion of voting rights poliyics have been in the hands of the population.

    A fairly abstract notion at this point that would certainly need a lot of finetuning, but it's something that I've been thinking about. Imagine if we could one day just pull the plug on all current media networks and give the reins to new and ambitious people who are just as sick of the current media culture as everyone else who's done a bit of thinking on it.
    I don't think it really matters that greatly. It would be critical in America, Britain and perhaps Italy and the German-speaking countries, but the rest of western Europe doesn't have a dominant rabid mediacracy. Say what you want about our Dutch media, it's fairly unbiased. That doesn't prevent populists from getting power.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  5. #5

    Default Re: A discussion on contemporary media culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    The bulk of the population will remain politically uninterested and it will remain addicted to the frothing at the mouth political journalism and the prolefeed of mass media. It's a paradox that universal democracy allows for undemocratic government, as the bulk of the population remains subservient to the interests of a small minority.
    I doubt the majority cares about any political journalism, even the frothing at the mouth kind. I'd say the majority simply doesn't care at all and instead prefers to fed their infotainment while they try to buy their way to a feeling of purpose.

  6. #6
    Inhuman One's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: A discussion on contemporary media culture

    Being rather right wing myself, I personly feel that the Dutch media might be biased a bit and leans more to the left instead of the center, where it should be. Official media should be neutral.

  7. #7

    Default Re: A discussion on contemporary media culture

    However that's impossible, if only because the definition of "centre" will vary person-to-person. And even if it was absolute, journalists are still people.

    That doesn't necessarily mean they shouldn't strive for objectivity, just that they will always miss.

  8. #8
    Inhuman One's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: A discussion on contemporary media culture

    Well at least in recent years they dare speak about the nationality/origin of vandals and criminals in the news. I feel we have the right to know about trouble caused by immigrants, especially when its about a group and not just an individual.

    Morrocan and Antillian immigrants seem to cause the most trouble around here.

  9. #9
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: A discussion on contemporary media culture

    All I know is if I'm going to be a good parent someday my kids are going to private schools and when they're at home they'll be reading primary sources and the classics if they don't feel like doing something more active. Hopefully it will go a ways in canceling out the crap.

    In my opinion the News Channels are welcome to broadcast what they want and people are welcome to watch it. Heck I watch it, but more for the taste of black humor.
    The Earth is inhabited by billions of idiots.
    The search for intelligent life continues...

  10. #10

    Default Re: A discussion on contemporary media culture

    We get the media we deserve and desire. Democracy today is about gut feelings, not grand ideas. If people wanted grand ideas thats what they would pursue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    All I know is if I'm going to be a good parent someday my kids are going to private schools and when they're at home they'll be reading primary sources and the classics if they don't feel like doing something more active. Hopefully it will go a ways in canceling out the crap.
    You can only force feed so much. Too strong the other direction and god help you when they get to college and are free to do their own thing.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  11. #11
    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: A discussion on contemporary media culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    We get the media we deserve and desire. Democracy today is about gut feelings, not grand ideas. If people wanted grand ideas thats what they would pursue.
    It's what killing us. Media corporations, as businesses, have a vested interest in providing the people simplicity because it sells the easiest. Likewise people, now unaccustomed to an intellectual challenge, demand only simplicity in turn.

    People don't want grand ideas, they want Keith Olbermann and Sean Hannity. Simple minded nonsense that only keeps up the pretense of political interest. The majority of the people who actively watch this know only how to replicate what they've been told on TV, and then they think they have an opinion.

    There's nothing worse for democracy than people voting on the basis of the opinion they think they have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier
    You can only force feed so much. Too strong the other direction and god help you when they get to college and are free to do their own thing.
    Good point. Public schooling needs its standards increased, that would solve half the problem. At least in the Netherlands its suffering severely from bureaucratic student management, a bureaucratic teacher's education, a boatload of paperwork for individual teachers that leaves them with no time to deal with the children, and a complete lack of interest in the wellbeing of individual students.

    The material they get presented is simple minded and often factually incorrect, is politically biased and is designed only so that a school can boast high graduation ratings.

    Something is very, very wrong. How can we be at all surprised that when a child finished high school and enters college to get some sort of useless degree in whatever, this person will want to spend his evenings watching simple minded nonsense on tv? And this is supposed to be the backbone of our democracy? I think not.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

  12. #12

    Default Re: A discussion on contemporary media culture

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    It's what killing us. Media corporations, as businesses, have a vested interest in providing the people simplicity because it sells the easiest. Likewise people, now unaccustomed to an intellectual challenge, demand only simplicity in turn.
    I think this implies it wasn't always like this, and I think it has been always like this. A good slogan is worth more than substance. We can't hope to change this (see what I did there ).

    I think it seems like it used to be better because history classes only cover the grand ideas, and often ignore the milkmans view.

    People don't want grand ideas, they want Keith Olbermann and Sean Hannity. Simple minded nonsense that only keeps up the pretense of political interest. The majority of the people who actively watch this know only how to replicate what they've been told on TV, and then they think they have an opinion.
    People like Olbermann and Hannity do represent 'grand ideas' in a way. They don't present it in grand fashion though. I think in both cases the ones who watch it are not there to learn but just to feel good about the opinions they already have. Its viewpoint affirmation.

    There's nothing worse for democracy than people voting on the basis of the opinion they think they have.
    But again I think thats always been the case. The information age has only made it more apparent and giving the other sides more talk time.



    Good point. Public schooling needs its standards increased, that would solve half the problem. At least in the Netherlands its suffering severely from bureaucratic student management, a bureaucratic teacher's education, a boatload of paperwork for individual teachers that leaves them with no time to deal with the children, and a complete lack of interest in the wellbeing of individual students.

    The material they get presented is simple minded and often factually incorrect, is politically biased and is designed only so that a school can boast high graduation ratings.

    Something is very, very wrong. How can we be at all surprised that when a child finished high school and enters college to get some sort of useless degree in whatever, this person will want to spend his evenings watching simple minded nonsense on tv? And this is supposed to be the backbone of our democracy? I think not.
    Well its the same in the US, but I think thats what happens when the teachers interests collide with political interests. A teachers union is no different than a carpenters union when it comes to that.
    Last edited by Phier; December 12, 2010 at 05:49 PM.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  13. #13
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: A discussion on contemporary media culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    We get the media we deserve and desire. Democracy today is about gut feelings, not grand ideas. If people wanted grand ideas thats what they would pursue.



    You can only force feed so much. Too strong the other direction and god help you when they get to college and are free to do their own thing.
    I wouldn't be a Christian about it I'd just make sure they weren't robbed of the opportunities to develop an intellect. It's like when I was learning to read I wasn't interested because it was too easy and those small children books may have worked when i was like 3 but at like ~6? I wanted my parents to read the Hobbit and such. They may have been above my reading level, but that was what i wanted to listen to. I think I needed to be challenged. I'm going to guess my kids will be somewhat like me. I'd rather struggle to learn something hard than practice something simple.

    If you want someone to build you need to give them the tools.
    The Earth is inhabited by billions of idiots.
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  14. #14
    Claudius Gothicus's Avatar Petit Burgués
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    Default Re: A discussion on contemporary media culture

    The Media? The media is BS and Journalism is a farce.

    But they are a necessary farce.

    Under the Patronage of
    Maximinus Thrax

  15. #15

    Default Re: A discussion on contemporary media culture

    The Dude, you should check out Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death if you haven't already. It provides a good insight into this issue.
    "Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam." -Hannibal Barca
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  16. #16

    Default Re: A discussion on contemporary media culture

    what concerns me isn't discussing and defining this link per se, but more people's willingness to float along with the currents and be played like a tool for someone's own gain.
    Personally i get frustrated, and worried, by the fact even critics' agenda is determined by.....empire (for want of a better word). Look at Israel/Palestine? Why is it important? Because Palestinians are so important? Because Israelis are? I don't think so....... so why do people "care" so much about it? Even the critics' agenda is set by......"empire".

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