Question

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

As you all know, i don't exactly have the most access to sources like you do, so I'd like to ask a question here:

What exactly was it that pushed the goths into the empire? I mean pressure from the huns was obviously a major factor, but from what i've read in peter heather and some others is that there had to be something else going on there...

[Valentinian Victor]

As you all know, i don't exactly have the most access to sources like you do, so I'd like to ask a question here:

What exactly was it that pushed the goths into the empire? I mean pressure from the huns was obviously a major factor, but from what i've read in peter heather and some others is that there had to be something else going on there...

There is a theory put forward in the book 'Catastrophy', that it may have been climate change that forced the Huns westwards into the Goth's and then in turn displacing the Goth's from their territories into the Roman Empire. But, in direct answer to your question, from the evidence we have at present all we can say is that pressure from both the Huns and Alans forced the Goths out of their homelands.

[juvenus]

As you all know, i don't exactly have the most access to sources like you do, so I'd like to ask a question here:

What exactly was it that pushed the goths into the empire? I mean pressure from the huns was obviously a major factor, but from what i've read in peter heather and some others is that there had to be something else going on there...

Could you please tell us what Peter said about "going on there"?
Afaik, no other factor but a brute force of the Huns & Co. influenced the Goths.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

well, much of what i've read stated that yes the huns were a major factor, but the goths should have been able to fight off the huns. They shouldn't have had a problem.

I'm thinking there may hve been another tribe or something trying to expand also and that's what tipped the balance. Maybe slavs or sarmatians...

[Valentinian Victor]

well, much of what i've read stated that yes the huns were a major factor, but the goths should have been able to fight off the huns. They shouldn't have had a problem.

I'm thinking there may hve been another tribe or something trying to expand also and that's what tipped the balance. Maybe slavs or sarmatians...

It will not have been the Sarmatians, as they were pushed westwards by the Goths and Alans.

[juvenus]

well, much of what i've read stated that yes the huns were a major factor, but the goths should have been able to fight off the huns. They shouldn't have had a problem.

I'm thinking there may hve been another tribe or something trying to expand also and that's what tipped the balance. Maybe slavs or sarmatians...

Slavs? If there is any evidence I would be glad to hear about it. Otherwise, it may be rejected as a non sense since the Slavs became a stage player only in the 6th century.

Also, I must say from all I've ever heard of indicates the Huns were totally unstoppable force. Even for the Romans! How do you imagine the Goths to have been able to stop them? They didn't have Tomahawk cruise missiles, you know.
The Huns had easily subdued the Alans before turning on the Goths. Then, they scattered the Goths all over the place!

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

An interesting idea - please elaborate.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Well, I'm rereading chapter 3 of peter heather's book right now, searching deeper for the answer. He states that the goths had dug in in the roman mountain fortresses in the carpathians, and held out there to become the ostrogoths. Consiidering the number of people who crossed the danube in 376, there should have been enough goths to hold off the huns and alans...
Vandals maybe? I heard they were just to the east of the middle danube, on the hungarian plains...

[juvenus]

What you said about the Ostrogoths makes sense, although I don't know about those fortresses. Did Goths take over the forts on the Roman soil or the Romans had something like the Forward Operating Posts beyound their territory?

As for the Vandals yes they were on the Danube, but I think they were pushed further west by the Hun/Alan locomotion. We know they ended up in the Rhine in 407ad. But it's an interesting field for sure. Gonna get the book "Barbarian Migrations in the Roman West", hopefully it will answer some questions.

[Valentinian Victor]

What you said about the Ostrogoths makes sense, although I don't know about those fortresses. Did Goths take over the forts on the Roman soil or the Romans had something like the Forward Operating Posts beyound their territory?

As for the Vandals yes they were on the Danube, but I think they were pushed further west by the Hun/Alan locomotion. We know they ended up in the Rhine in 407ad. But it's an interesting field for sure. Gonna get the book "Barbarian Migrations in the Roman West", hopefully it will answer some questions.

I think MMFA has rather over generalised. Whilst its true one of the Gothic kings did indeed take over the old Roman frontier wall in Dacia, even repairing it in parts, it failed to stop the Huns from inflicting a further defeat on the Goths. The Gothic king then fled to the Carpathian mountains where the Huns would have been at a disadvantage. However, only a small group of Goth's accompanied the King, the others sought refuge within the Roman Empire.

Remember, the term 'Ostrogoth' should not be applied to the Goths of the 3rd/4th Centuries AD, rather the terms 'Tervingi' and 'Greuthingi' should be used. 'Ostrogoth' and 'Visigoth' as terms were used in the 5th Century.

[Lionheart]

From what i know they are at least three factors.

The first one is the Huns that marched against the borders of the empire and forced other peoples to migrate. This applies to the Goths and others that after this occupied the lands that where formerly of the Goths.

The second one appears to be the short food and some bad seasons that forced the Goths to ask for asilum in the empire for food.

The third factor appears to be a war between some factions in the Tervingi Goths that forced the defeated to push trough the borders of the empire.

[Brucha]

The second one appears to be the short food and some bad seasons that forced the Goths to ask for asilum in the empire for food.

I have wondered what the effects of the famines and droughts in India (and recorded elsewhere east/southeast of what is now Eastern Europe as there is ample evidence that these regions suffered similar effects of famine and droughts during the time frame of the Hunnic invasions into the west) could have contributed to the overall migration of the Goths into the west. (Balkundi, H.V - 1998 - Famines and Droughts in the Indian subcontinent during the 5th century BC to 18th century AD, published in the Asian Agri-History Foundation Journal: 2, 4, 305--315). During the 5th century, the region suffered massive famines and droughts which certainly could have had far-reaching implications, not discluding the displacement of large portions of native populations out of India that, in turn, displaced other populations. And thus you get a domino effect. The combination of the famine/droughts and Hunnic push westwards could have driven the goths to seek lands into the Balkans and into Roman territory out of sheer survival.

[juvenus]

I have wondered what the effects of the famines and droughts in India (and recorded elsewhere east/southeast of what is now Eastern Europe as there is ample evidence that these regions suffered similar effects of famine and droughts during the time frame of the Hunnic invasions into the west) could have contributed to the overall migration of the Goths into the west. (Balkundi, H.V - 1998 - Famines and Droughts in the Indian subcontinent during the 5th century BC to 18th century AD, published in the Asian Agri-History Foundation Journal: 2, 4, 305--315). During the 5th century, the region suffered massive famines and droughts which certainly could have had far-reaching implications, not discluding the displacement of large portions of native populations out of India that, in turn, displaced other populations. And thus you get a domino effect. The combination of the famine/droughts and Hunnic push westwards could have driven the goths to seek lands into the Balkans and into Roman territory out of sheer survival.

it's very likely to have had some far reaching effect, however, the timing for the Goths simply doesn't match. The aforementioned article speaks about the 5th century while the Goths sought asylum in the empire in 376ad.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

hmm... interesting.
also, Tervingi and Grethungi would both become the visigoths. There were about 5 other groups that would become ostrogoths.
Thanks for the clarification guys.

[Dragases]

It doesn't really add much value to the discussion, though I think some of you might be interested that not all Goths were swept away by the Huns and fled to the west.

A small group stayed behind in the Crimea, where they remained a distinct ethnic unit until the 17th century. A Flemish ambassador encountered one of them at the court of the Sultan in Constantinople. He was actually able to understand a bit of his Gothic tongue, since it was a Germanic language at the core (like Dutch).

[juvenus]

quite interesting, i had no idea about it.

[wulfgar610]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Goths