Abbasid / Georgia roster proposal thread!

[RollingWave]

Well... adding a new faction is more complicated than i'm willing to attempt right now, but we could still start talk on what the faction roster of the Abbasid and Georgia should look like! (i'll leave out Bulgaria / Serbia for now since that's still undecided)



I'll start.... here's 3 distinctly unique abbasid unit IMHO

1. Abna : they were the professional troops of the Caliph, usually well armored and well trained, records say they fight in defensive pike / long spear formations and on offensive sometimes use short spear / javelin / sword

2. Ayyarun (vagabonds) : they rose during the more lawless periods to install some order in the laweless situations, though obviously the methods would sometimes be rather controversial themselfs. probably among the more basic level troops.

3. Futuwwa (chivalrious youth): After order was restored in the area the Ayyaruns gradually began to transform towards the Futuwwa, especially famous in the Abbasid's late rivival when Caliph An-Nashir basically formed them up into warrior guilds and many famous later leaders were also members. in military terms they were trusted warriors, often crossbowmens, or highly skilled cavalries etc.. probably several units can be made with this term.


Probably also make a higher end Ghulam unit for the Abbasids (probably cross shared with Kwarezmid) as well. with the Abbasid we need to consider more bedouin units maybe... they might also get some access to black units etc... and IMHO naffatun should be by far the most easily avalible to them, since they were by far the most noted user of that weapon. though obviously their late roster will need to be guess / fanatasy work since well... Baghdad was nearly off the face of the earth by the late period... let alone the Caliph.

[Caesar Clivus]

A georgian roster has already been worked out in an older thread.

[Fair Prince]

A georgian roster has already been worked out in an older thread.

CC, is there any chance of merging the old and the new ideas?
It would surely help the progress a lot.

[daraca]

Hello

If you need some Information about medieval Georgien warriors I would assist you.

Here's unique Medieval Georgia unit :

1. Tadzreuli= warriors- they are elite force of the medieval Georgian army XII-XV c.c.( from VII till XVIII c.c.),
high effecient, and heavy hitting cavalry. It included both nobles and ordinary soldiers, They were all Georgian king vassals. At the time of King David there were about 1500. Armed with lances and swords and armed in mail or lamellar, kite or round shield , spheroconical helmet.

2. “Mesacole”= guards - They are among the Elite Tadzreuli. They chose among the nobility, they were 700.
Their arms and equipment was: Long spear, round shield, hauberk-mail , greaves, spheroconical helmet +aventail, flanged mace, composite bow. Horse armour being used 11th and later, 14th century.( description of the horse in the armor are in the Georgian and Byzantine sources)

3. "Monaspa"= created a king David IV the Builder, few thousand warriors. They are heavy cavalry. Armed with lamellar, spheroconical helmet, sword, greaves, kite shield.


I can add, if needed…

This Information based largely on 11th -14th century sources.

[daraca]

Caesar Clivus

A georgian roster has already been worked out in an older thread.

And where can i find it? (Its very interesting)

[Ichon]

The late Abassids armies relied largely on Ghulams from Armenia/Greek and Turkish Anatolia quite heavily. Perhaps also some Sindh mercenaries since they are mentioned frequently as threatening trade to the east unless hired(protection racket) to protect the trade ships from other pirates?

The ‘ayyārūn were more like organized Sunni gangs which frequently clashed with the professionals employed by the Caliph. Only in time of emergency and a threat to Islam itself were ‘ayyārūn used to fight for the Caliph. The basis of later Abassid military power was on endowment of iqta titles (essentially legal claims to lands and revenues) to supporters. However several times Amirs amassed too much power so the late Abassid Caliphs built a professional army formed mostly of Ghulam slaves from lands outside of Iraq/western Persia. Armenians, Greeks, Turks, and even some units of local religious minorities who contributed manpower levies instead of paying the Dhimmi tax. Jews were a substantial part of the population in Baghdad and the special Dhimmi taxes raised from their majority control of the merchant trade supported the Caliphate offices. Jews were not used in the Abassid armies as far as I've read anywhere, but minority Christians often were in the late period.

Futuwwa was a description of an upright and honorable man- essentially Chivalrous in Islamic terms, and such leaders could call upon volunteers to fight for them- more like a lightly armed mob than truly organized soldiers though. Mostly their role in the sieges of Baghdad is mentioned in chronicles. They do not seem to have been sent as organized units beyond Baghdad and Samarra.

The Abassid Caliphs were Sunni but in the late era of their reign made use of Shia Persians more frequently as the Sunni characteristics of Abassid rule had been greatly weakened under Buyid and Seljuk military vassalage. So sharing some units with K-Shah might be ok.

Naffatuns were mentioned serving in the navy and in siege defense/assaults but not so frequently so I don't know if naffatuns should have large availability.

A Beduin light javelin cavalry with either low availability or locals to Arabia might be appropriate as well since by this time many of the Turkish Ghulams were heavier cavalry and infantry.

Abassids in previous years imported many African slaves to the Basra region but not sure if they existed as organized force under Abassids ever. I think they were more famous for being involved in several rebellions.

Turkish and Armenian cavalry with Greek, Christian, and Persian infantry seem to be the model of late Abassid armies. A class of Iqta holders (Amirs usually) and their personal guards might also be a unit as such groups are frequently mentioned in the armed clashes of internal Abassid civil disturbances that weren't quite large scale civil wars. Sort of like the riot squads of the local police forces but were armed and trained so likely fought under the army at times when the army was not sent to control them though relatively low availability.

[Caesar Clivus]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=222242

[BAGRAT 7]

Khevsureti Swordsmen - light, hill tribesmen, upgrade to medium, impetueous
Kartlian Spearmen - light, upgrade to medium, backbone of early army
Metsikhovne Spearmen - medium, proffesional troops
Tadzreuli swordsmen - medium (temple guards)
Eristavs Swordsmen - heavy (dismounted knights)
Monaspa Pike - heavy elite

Svanian Archers - light
Kypchak Archers - medium
Metsikhovne archers - medium, upgrade to heavy
Monaspa archers - heavy elite
Musket Unit

Alan cavalry - light
Tadzreuli cavarly - medium
Eristav cavalry - heavy
Monaspa cavalry - super heavy elite
Egriseli cavalry - light missile
Kypchak cavalry - light missile, improved attack, morale

this is roster? i make correction
Kartlian Spearmen - light
kvevsur Swordsmen - light, eastern mountains, high morale and attack but little defence
metsikhovne spearmen - medium, profefsional troops (fortresses guard)
Dismnounted tadzreuli cavalry - heavy inantry
dismounted monaspa - elite infantry


svanian hunters - light
metsikhovne archers - medium archers
dismounted monaspa heavy horse archers - heavy/Elite


aznauri cavalry - light, upgrade to medium
tadzreuli cavalry - heavy
monaspa - elite cavalry


missle cavalry

georgian light horse archers - light
kypckal light archers
monaspa heavy horse archers

[daraca]

Caesar Clivus
Thanks

BAGRAT 7
Good

Kartlian Spearmen - light
Kvevsur Swordsmen - light, eastern mountains, high morale and attack but little defence
Metsikhovne spearmen - medium, profefsional troops (fortresses guard)
Metsikhovne archers - medium archers


Kypckal light archers

Aznauri cavalry - medium

Dismnounted tadzreuli - heavy inantry
Dismounted monaspa - elite infantry

+

1. Tadzreuli= warriors- they are elite force of the medieval Georgian army XII-XV c.c.( from VII till XVIII c.c.),
high effecient, and heavy hitting cavalry. It included both nobles and ordinary soldiers, They were all Georgian king vassals. At the time of King David there were about 1500. Armed with lances and swords and armed in lamellar, kite or round shield , spheroconical helmet.

2. “Mesacole”= guards - They are among the Elite Tadzreuli. They chose among the nobility, they were 700.
Their arms and equipment was: Long spear, round shield, hauberk-mail , greaves, spheroconical helmet +aventail, flanged mace, composite bow. Horse armour being used 11th and later, 14th century.( description of the horse in the armor are in the Georgian and Byzantine sources)

3. "Monaspa"= created a king David IV the Builder, few thousand warriors. They are heavy cavalry. Armed with lamellar, spheroconical helmet, sword, greaves, kite shield.

These are Own king Troops-guard.

Tadzreuli (heavy cavalry)= guard from 7th century

Mesacole (heavy cavalry)= guards from 13-15th century

Monaspa (heavy cavalry)= troops since 1118 y.

and + Svanian spearmen (like : Chukuli wooden door panel warrior) = round shield,spear, sword.

Let's agree=This version is more historically. / We need correctament Units.

[daraca]

Caesar Clivus

Fair Prince

Can you answer me ? Will be Georgia in CC ? If so then when it will ....?