Casse Chariots.

[Ricimer]

Things I read before making this post.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/lj/arch...ariot_02.shtml (has pictures, drivers sitting)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_warfare#Chariots
http://www.romans-in-britain.org.uk/...eltic_life.htm
http://www.geocities.com/nwgrant/tony/tony4.html (more pictures, kind of goofy model thing
)
http://www.renegademiniatures.com/article15.htm (hints that not all nobles fought from chariot, some were standard cav.)
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/...a/chariot.html
(pictures, did you know that the word car is derived from celtic? meaning wheel vehicle)
http://historion.net/e.conybeare-ear...n/page-45.html
(chariots as missile vehicles. no scythe blades)
http://www.yorkshirehistory.com/chariot_burials/
(more stuff from wetwang... heh.. wetwang..)

Are these the chariot skins from vanilla? On a side note, did the celtic chariots really look shabby little carts? I ask about the skins because the mudflap is still the old stag of the british.

In any case, they are pretty much useless in RTW battles. You basically get to knock around an enemy formation, (provided they aren't light infantry, if they are light inf, your gonna lose a noble really fast, watch our for javelins!!!) and then have to run away with maybe having killed 2 or three 3 guys. Your infantry charge must immediately follow this disorganizing move to have it be even more remotely effectual. This tactic might just look effectual, and not even really do anything, I can't tell yet.

Another tactic for these chariots that works semi decently is charging into the rear of your enemy's line and routing the foe that way. This is much more successful tactic, but still the chariots are more used for shock value than for actually killing. The problem with this is that the chariots are barely mobile enough to pull it off, and then you must retreat quickly or your noble will die, retreating quickly is again hampered by the mobility issue.

I know this might seem kind of realistic, but I don't like it. Frankly, I'm really worried about the ability of the brits, or the gauls even to fight against the massively superior stats of the roman infantry, but I digress.

The real problem with these chariots isn't about their use or effectiveness in battle. They simply do not move right. They get hung up on cities, often times in battle I've seen the cars facing the wrong direction from the line of march/movement. They are slow and clunky. I don't blame this on EB, the chariots have been weirdly mobile in every RTW mod I've played.

I've been reading up on these british chariots. Caesar mentioned that the chariots were used first to ride around the battlefield and javelins were thrown from them. Then the warriors dismounted, and the chariots were moved away to a distance so that if the lord/noble got into trouble, his chariot driver could come and save him. Ironically, this was exactly how chariots were used by the greeks and even the ancient romans.

Some articles indicated that chariots were used in frontal charges, but if that is the case, then why so ineffective are EB's british chariots in frontal assault? That is just a great way to get your nobles killed.

Every thing I read implies that chariots were atleast potentially fast, as well as decently mobile. They were not clunky and they did not have swords mounted on the sides of the wheels to cut up opponents. I think the way these chariots are represented in mods and in RTW needs to be looked at.

I'm definitely not trying to trash your mod, I had a lot of fun playing as the Casse even in the beta installment of the mod. I have a lot of respect for the work that you guys have done, but these chariots are a sticking point. Frankly I've always hated the british chariots since day one of vanilla RTW, they just don't move right. That's not anybody's fault but CA's I guess. I secretly believe that the RTR people ditched Britian because of how weird the chariots handle.

In any case, here are some potential ideas.

1. Lose um for the nobles. Make the nobles infantry or some form of cav (i haven't done much research or british cavalry) Retain chariots as skirmishers, speed them up.
2. If they are going to be retained for the nobles, their stats should still change to either be frontal charge vehicles, or missile skirmish vehicles.
3. Better skin better skin better skin better skin better skin better skin. (god I would do it if I could but I can't even draw those silly little hand turkey's.)

I think there's very little information regarding pre-caesar british chariots, you have a lot of lee way here with which you can make changes and still be semi historical. Obviously the chariot shouldn't be the ultimate weapon of war because if that was the case it's use would not have died out in favor of normal cav.

Another thing to consider is even your own description of the Casse leadership. He's trying to build the british into a serious and maybe imperial force. If that's the case, you got to innovate and adapt. Innovation and adaptation doesn't bode well for the chariot historically so this is another argument in favor of just dropping them, or minimizing their role.

I'm sorry for the hugely long post, I have a lot of pent up frustration when it comes to these chariots. Please at least consider my arguement.

[alin]

Yes they are the vanila chariots, i don't know why the wetwang chariots weren't included in the OB since they were done a really long time ago, only about the chariot the drivers i don't know off but you could easily use some other models for them. And to show that i'm not lieing here is it :

[Martocticvs]

I would certainly agree that the chariots are about the least useful of all the units out there :p They're not even any good at chasing down routing units. But if thats what they used we'll just have to put up with them hehe

[Ricimer]

Well Marto, they wanted feedback from our open beta experience. Hopefully we can convince them that in the interest of realism, gameplay, and simple craftsmanship, this particular feature needs to be addressed. Especially since it's the nobles unit. You can't exactly have useless generals now can you? Wouldn't be total war!

[PSYCHO V]

Things I read before making this post...... I have a lot of pent up frustration when it comes to these chariots. Please at least consider my arguement.

lol .... :original: Mate you're preaching to the choir! We have already completed the 'wetwang' styled chariots, their driver animations etc etc some months ago. We were even looking at giving them an embarking / disembarking ability for troops.

But like a lot of extra EB candy..it didn't make it into the beta. We were more concerned about getting the game bug free. I assure you that you'll get to see these and possibly a midlander chariot in future

[Ranika]

Chariots are not meant to chase down routers. They're meant to throw missiles and disorient dense formations by driving through them. That was their real-world use in battle. They were not cavalry in a sense; they were a kind of specialized disorienting weapon and transport (the latter part can sadly not be imitated). The Casse will eventually have some light, weak cavalry to employ though (the LE are a placeholder), and will be able to get the better Belgae cavalry in certain regions too.

Use chariots by driving them through a formation of heavy infantry, followed by light, fast infantry to spread the gap, and backed then by heavier infantry if you have it. That's their point; to break up dense heavy infantry forms. Historically, at this point, nobles would also dismount their chariots to support the light infantry exploiting the holes.

[nairagorn]

We were even looking at giving them an embarking / disembarking ability for troops.

That would be great!

I agree with a few of the above comments tho. As they are, chariots are more or less completely useless.

[Feldspar]

I think if you could raise their damage in some way, or make them hit a little harder,

I find they just cause a couple men to turn around, make a couple gaps then die violently and the hands of the swarms of men around them

[Martocticvs]

Well you have to keep them moving - that's the key. The moment they stop - particularly amongst a group of the enemy - they die. That's accurate enough. Trouble is they knock people flying left right and centre but don't usually do any actual damage... but if their real purpose was not really to do damage but rather allow the infantry to do more damage, more effectively, then used right that's exactly what they'll do now... I still don't like them though Give me a unit of heavy cavalry over them any day

[Feldspar]

^agreed, nothing like a well timed heavy cav charge.

[QwertyMIDX]

There's a reason cavalry replaced chariots .

[Fondor_Yards]

If you want chairots to kill men, jsut go into the descr_mount and edit the scythe radius from .5 to anything higher. 1.0 is too big for me, with that you can jsut drive through and kill half a unit, .7-.8 is good. If you want to have fun, put the radius on 8 and fight a full warband army with a unit of scythed chairots. 4,600 kills later...

[Ricimer]

Celtic Chariots don't have scythes.

[Sylver]

I've been reading up on these british chariots. Caesar mentioned that the chariots were used first to ride around the battlefield and javelins were thrown from them. Then the warriors dismounted, and the chariots were moved away to a distance so that if the lord/noble got into trouble, his chariot driver could come and save him. Ironically, this was exactly how chariots were used by the greeks and even the ancient romans.

I think it would be great if the Casse Generals fought on foot, or on horseback. Casse Generals could be given an extra trait to reflect this.. -

"This General has a chance to recover from wounds, because his chariots can bear him quickly to a place of safety so he may recieve medical attention."

But, I think this might be a hardcoded? I noticed that when I lost a family member, and 11 of the 13 men recovered from their wounds, the family member was not among them.

[Ricimer]

Nice idea Sylver,.. or maybe Charioteer retainer or trait could just give a couple more hit points or something?

[Malrubius]

Giving additional hitpoints would be possible (though it wouldn't really match with what's happening on the battlefield). I've never heard of a general dying in battle, and recovering afterwards, in RTW. We do have some additional types of battle injuries, recovery, and such that are in-game, and more are in the works.

[Ricimer]

I successively lost each of my generals as the Casse. I didn't like the concept of just having my general sit back and not fight. Also, the economics of EB demand that your general take part in the battle, it's just to expensive to have another unit take his place.

I kind of stopped playing the open beta EB because you guys have mentioned you have new and better plans for the chariots and the Casse is kind of the only faction I want to play. Well.. except Rome, but from looking at the stats of their units while playing the Casse I kind of decided they would a little to uber for me to have fun with.

I look forward to this mods release, or an OB update.

[Yarkis de Bodemloze]

If you want to improve the behaviour of all chariots, double their charge distance from 40 to 80. This way you get rid of their annoying stop-and-go movements and see some nice charges instead.

[Ricimer]

Hmmm good idea.. That stop and go thing is moronic.