Against Mongols with the Khwarezm Shah?

[TuCoT]

Can someone give me an effective tactic against Mongols with the Khwarezm Shah? As you know they will emerge in Samarqand Region with 9 or 11 full stacks led by full commanded and dreaded generals. In vanilla m2tw, they're a doom for the Turks, but Turks have a good infantry selection in late era (Janissaries etc.) but Khwarezmians have only good cataphract cavalry, hovewer this isn't enough to defeat them eh? Attacking of defending, what is the most effective way to get rid of them?

Waiting professional BC players' suggestions. (especially Khwarezm players)

[wudang_clown]

I recommend you reading How are the Mongols in your campaign?. There are few interesting reports and I've posted there my way of dealing with Mongols which I'm quite proud of.

[Borgoroth]

I've played khwarezm probably 70% off all campaigns, and I have tried maaaaaany different ways to defeat/survive/fool the mongols.

Want to escape the mongol wrath cheap&easy? When they arrive, offer samarqand to ghazni as a gift and possibly balkh since its on the way or make sure u got 3+ imams and have them walking around india/russia, when mongols arrive, Jihad thier ass.

Want to fight them but play it safe? Convert balkh to castle when it reaches 9000 pop, make sure u got lots of sughandis, muwatis, archers (not persian) and a few tajiks in all forts along the river in the heart of khwarezm. Wait for the mongols to attack them and if u defend efficient enough you might loose 1-2 of the forts (sometimes many cities, but they usually stick around the river forts untill they manage to burn 1 or 2) but they will be very weak and you can kill them off.

Want a challange and by far most fun way? Only fortify urgench, make sure to have at least 3 armies (70% infantry 27% cav 3% machines) and move them constantly so that the mongols cant go south of river without attackng the bridge, in addition to those armies, and this is tricky, you need 2 armies 100% cav (35%hc 65%ha) I have done it with less but was lucky, these armies are VITAL for victory in bridge defence, they need to be constantly on the move so you can make sure that you can move 1 normal army to strenghten the bridge about to get attacked (like domino from one side to the other wiit all bridge armies) and the bridge furthest away needs to be blocked with atleast 1 cav army, depending on when the attack comes, you need to risk attacking any mongol army that isnt with main army, standard cav tactics works good vs mongols, harass and charge, divide and encircle etc

Hope this helps

[TuCoT]

Many thank you guys! May Allah will help us when they come...

I will create 6 army for bridge defences with forts:

2 Urban Militia +1 exp
4 Persian Archer +1 exp
6 Persian Spearmen +1 exp

Will this effective for them?

[Borgoroth]

Many thank you guys! May Allah will help us when they come...

I will create 6 army for bridge defences with forts:

2 Urban Militia +1 exp
4 Persian Archer +1 exp
6 Persian Spearmen +1 exp

Will this effective for them?

I forgot to mention one big part of the bridge tactic, you need to expand fast in start and once you got something like this area:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

not really good either one of thoose but i dont got any screens from the exact area Had to take from my old post. Anyway, somwhere in between those two, not like the small one cuz it wud mean war with seljuks and war with them is probably not going to end unless you defeat them completely, no time for that. And not like the big pic cuz thats a bit to small, so somewhere in between.

Anyway, what you need to do after you got this area controlled is to fortify bordering cities, like 2 or 3 max, just enough to scare off attacks, then disband every other unit and build up economy for a long time. Not sure what year but start making sughandis rather rearly since it takes ages to make enough of them to field 3 armies that has a good bulk of them, but when it is around 5 years left (10 turns) then you start recruiting like mad, as you get closer, hire mercenaries, ha is good to hire, And thats the hard part, cuz you need to time it right otherwise ull end up broke before u get full army strenght, and all the time during the mongol ivansion, you will loose several thousand per turn, but that cant be avoide.

ah ye heres a report from when I did the jihad and got rid of the mongols ^^
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...97#post6042097

[zznɟ ǝɥʇ]

I can attest a Mongol jihad is hilarious and awesome since jihads are so rare in BC.

I've found the most success when using a combination of Borgoroth's strategies. But I don't think you need to give up Samarkand, you just need to keep a few stacks nearby as to disuade attacks. Similarly, do this around the bridges save one and kind of guide the Mongols towards Ghazni or whichever faction is closest. All the same, the Mongols probably will attack you. Use the cavalry armies supported by infantry, but in my experience the Mongols annihilate pure infantry because their armies are large enough they can occupy all your troops and then attack with the other 1/3 of their army. City defenses are difficult but winnable if you have experienced heavy infantry and a general with heavy cavalry.

Good luck - it's a lot of fun!

[nurhak]

jihads kick their ass for sure, with 9 of 10 jihads we actually defeat them

[Borgoroth]

Oh btw I must add, that the most efficient, smartest and best tactic against mongols is Wudang_clowns tactic which he used against the mongols. Check this post and the links in it http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...57#post6047857

Never managed to do that myself, I have tried on atleast 3 occasions.

[wudang_clown]

Thank you very much for compliment, but I'm quite sure that in initial phase it was rather a matter of luck than my planning.

[Borgoroth]

Thank you very much for compliment, but I'm quite sure that in initial phase it was rather a matter of luck than my planning.

Still, can't think of a better way to handle it, brilliant!

[Maturin y Domanova]

This being the middle ages, it is entirely valid to gather all your nobles and armies and wealth, then start a wholesale migration, fleeing to Qipchak lands and carving out a new kingdom there. Then you could plot reconquest. Stuff like that happened all the time.

When there's no such thing as France, you can run away from Hitler and move France somewhere else. Would've been handy for De Gaulle.

[trollface]

On a side note it is fun to expand up to Khwarezm with the georgians and use the 'plant stakes' ability of your 'guardians of the fortress' (lower tier archer unit) to massacre their cavalry.

[buglepong]

I spammed assassins and killed off their generals, then held bridges to separate and block them massing. In the end I killed off all family members and the horde went rebel somewhere in the desert.

[Borgoroth]

Have you eliminated the faction or still fighting?

[valachian shepherd]

I have a problem with mongols as Ghaznavids. They are attacking me directly, every time, they just ignore Khwarezm. I played few times with Ghaznavids and every time mongols are attacking me. I tried to give them provinces, tribute, money..they seem to be scripted to destroy Ghaznavids.

Now I am retreating in Lahore/Delhi area and mongols seem to stop in Kabul(Ghorids are destroyed for long) and I am planning to finish up solankis and sindhis and than fight my way back into Persia trough Afghanistan.


I simply don't have the resources to fight them right now, I can barely make 3 stacks of troops, and not the best troops that Ghaznavids can recruit.

Mongol have another home, Ghazni and I hope they are stopping and turn to Khwarezm. I raised every piece of building in the conquered cities and castles but I don't know if this was wise since mongols don't have the money to build up troops in conquered provinces.

[Borgoroth]

When the mongols arrive, what area are you occupying?

I advice you to forget about diplomacy with the mongols, they don't care for it, even if they accept something they'll most likely stab you in the back the next turn. The tricky part with them mongols is that they can cover vast distances that you can't compete with, but afghanistan is perfekt for you and it spells death for mongols. I would advice you to re-take all cities within the Afghani mountains, station armies in the mountainside, narrow places so they cant overwhealm your army by numbers, and fight a defensive campaign on the battlefield. Do not underestimate the value of Afghani geography, it, simply put, pwnz.

[valachian shepherd]

Hey Borgoroth,

I played many games with Gaznavids but I never managed to oppose the mongol invasion even on medium. The games are usually going like this:

- I am eliminating the Ghorids fast and then; sometimes I have time to conquer some regions in India, from the Rajputs; In this particular case, Lahore, Delhi and Jalabar (or something like this); The Rajputs are sitting in one province only, the one above Delphi with 8 elephants and constantly attacked by the Solankis; Also Solankis are at war with Sindh since the begining throwing stacks

- I am expanding in west/south too, usually I am holding Firzukh, Herat, Bost si Kandahar. At some point the Khwarezm is attacking in Baymian or Herat. This is triggering an attrition war; my main problem is that I can only use two stacks of troops and their superior armor, better general troops, constant throwing of almost full stacks against Herat and Baymian is keeping me for developing my castles. Usually I am ending this war after I am raiding their big cities like Merv or Nishapur, raise everything and generally ravaging their empire but not keeping anything as I don't have necessary number of troops.

- usually Khwarezm is making peace if I have few succesful raids against their cities/castles or if the mongols are approaching.

- then the mongols come. with no exception (in my games started with Gaznavids, more than 10) they are heading straight to Balk. They are ignoring the main core of Khwarezm and attacking my cities, first Baymian and Firzukh, than Ghazni where they are usually settling their capital.

than, usually game over

In actual game I started to expand in India in order to gain more resources..this worked for some time but I stoped to Delphi due to war with Khwarezm. Now the mongols are in Peshawar and Sindhs are backstabbing me too. I fought some fights around Peshawar with my Sultan (which is full stars and dread, Lord of Terror etc.) , destroyed two stacks of Mongols but eventually I have to retreat due to shortage on troops and money. I am on red, btw.

What I am doing wrong? It is fun but I am annoyed that I can solve this problem and I am the first target of mongols. I am more a casual player, due to work I don't have enough time to test a lot but I am pretty skilled with battles (I am playing the game since shogun).

Thanks for your tip Borgoroth, I found out how useful can be Afghanistan area for defensive battles after few encounters with mongols in Peshawar valley. I am planning to start over again and hold them around Balkh Firzukh. But I am thinking that I have to expand a lot faster in India, sacking everything in order to invest money in my fortresses from Afghanistan and producing elephant troops, eventually. However, I was unable to attain a level big enough for producing top tier Ghaznavids units. I am usually ending up with Cavalry Ghulams,Ghaznavid medium cavalry, ghulam infantry and ghulam spearme (infantry not enough in numbers in order to be able to help me a lot, I am using most khorasani spearmen, ghaznavid spearmen and ghaznavid archers plus Afghan troops/daylami infantry)

[Borgoroth]

Something I notice straight away, gotta ask, have you always been in controll of Balkh when the mongols arrive? If so, then make sure you either don't conquer it or give it to Khwarezm before or immediatly when the mongols invade. This will give you a good time to prepare and possibly attack a weakened Khwarezm. Please write your progress here or in the thread "Show your empire", I would like to know about your progress

[valachian shepherd]

I was never in control of Balkh. Since my finances are weaken if I am starting an early war with Khwarez, I always avoided to take Balkh.

As for mongol behaviour, they come directly to Balkh, took it from the Khwarezm than they are heading directly to Ghazni and conquering Firzukh, Baimyan in their way. They simplly ignore Khwarezm and attack me with all their stacks albeit they are at war with Khwarezm too

[Borgoroth]

I love a challange, so could you attach the save file from a game when the mongols have just invanded and (or) when you have much trouble (more is better) I'd love to try turning it, would appriciate it alot!