Altruism - Why the Evolutionary Theory Can't Be True

[Invictus XII]

Altruism - The definition of altruism is the wanting of a human for another human to succeed or for the betterment of others.

The boundaries of the basic rules of evolution are as stated by Darwin "survival of the fittest" Now altruism is very real, its everywhere, and no one can deny that. But the theory of evolution clear states that this isn't possible. If evolution stayed within its boundaries, which it only can to remain a reliable theory then humans would be self-centered and wouldn't consider the possibility of helping others. We would be like the Eloi in the "Time Machine" by H.G Wells. All insensitive to others.

Some evolutionists will say that we have learned by nurture to have altruism within the last few thousand years, but that would be impossible, as helping others makes us less likely to survive ourselves, and doesn't help us to be true to the evolutionary boundaries of "survival of the fittest". Again, if you believe that we have learn't altruism, then you are compromising your own beliefs to prove a point and open a whole lot more questions on the theory of evolution. And compromise the entire theory.

So the act of humans helping other humans for others betterment, shows that the evolutionary theory can't be true. No animal has altruism, and altruism can't be developed from nature, as their is nothing in the universe that we know of that has altruism besides human beings, some animals may show it for their family, but by protecting their families, they better themselves, only humans can show random acts of kindness and altruism to total strangers and family alike. So what possibilities are left, only that of creationism.

Fell free to discuss, if you can show that "survival of the fittest" and the idea that you live for the betterment of yourself and yourself alone can also allow for the want to betterment strangers and not your survival or betterment.

MB

[Jack04]

Now altruism is very real, its everywhere, and no one can deny that.

There is a very strong case that true altruism doesn't exist and that what is generally considered to be altruism is actually a lot more self-centred than would appear to be the case. Take religious altruism for example, helping others in order (effectively) to secure your place in the next life. That isn't really altruism, is it?

A more interesting question would be whether the cause of the good deeds actually matters, but that's not really relevant here. As it is, I don't think the case for "true" altruism is even close to being strong enough to make the point you're attempting.

[Vizsla]

No animal has altruism, and altruism can't be developed from nature, as their is nothing in the universe that we know of that has altruism besides human beings, some animals may show it for their family, but by protecting their families, they better themselves, only humans can show random acts of kindness and altruism to total strangers and family alike. So what possibilities are left, only that of creationism.

Not true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals
See?

[basics]

I think with the developments going on both nationally and internationally the world is not the safe place as your posting shows. Indeed never has it been seen in my lifetime the amount of greed and selfcentredness that emanates from top to bottom. It seems to me that to have that which belongs to others is the watchword among the masses.

Does that then make it evolutionary? No, all it shows is that men and women are following the lusts of their own hearts and stuff anyone else. The rich want more and the poor want more yet here in Britain living standards have never been higher. Doesn't mean we're any richer, just means we have to have it regardless of the cost. The result is that we're all running out of dosh.

The answer it appears is to take to the streets, smash up some things in the hope that this will cave in any government who don't have any money, that somehow they will make more out of thin air thus adding to the debt that they don't want to understand nor it seems to have any part of. And who is it that is egging these brainless twits on? Why for sure it is the dinosaurs, yes dinosaurs in every sense of the word, that makes a union baron.

Meanwhile North Korea is flexing its muscle just as Iran would like to do whilst our militaries are bogged down with Muslim fanatics or freedom fighters depending on which side one belongs. We mustn't forget that other socialist idealist in Latin America who goes by the name of Chavez because I believe that he too wants more than he's got. This is what happens when God is not the centre of life.

As this is an old man's moan I hope that it hasn't drifted too far away from the question. So just to be on track again, I don't need to tell anyone that evolution is a load of codswallop, the sensible already know.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Evolution is not about survival of the fittest and Darwin never claimed that. It's about survival of the organism with the greatest ability to adapt. An organism that helps members of its species has an obvious advantage.

Altruism does not disprove evolution. /thread

[Claudius Gothicus]

Evolution is not about survival of the fittest and Darwin never claimed that. It's about survival of the organism with the greatest ability to adapt. An organism that helps members of its species has an obvious advantage.

Altruism does not disprove evolution. /thread

Certainly. In fact, the frase comes from Herbert Spencer If I remember crrectly, he tried to impose the natural theory to social systems...

[♔Goodguy1066♔]

Certainly. In fact, the frase comes from Herbert Spencer If I remember crrectly, he tried to impose the natural theory to social systems...

Who, Spencer or Dawin? As far as I'm aware neither did.

[Phier]

Everyone in this thread who has not read the selfish gene should really be required to do so

[Last Roman]

Evolution is not about survival of the fittest and Darwin never claimed that. It's about survival of the organism with the greatest ability to adapt. An organism that helps members of its species has an obvious advantage.

Altruism does not disprove evolution. /thread

This. The OP is taking "survival of the fittest" in too much of a literal sense.

[Himster]

Altruism is an instinctual attribute, particularly among mammals.

Go onto youtube and watch the battle at kruger, read the thousands of first hand accounts about people baing saved by dolphins, watch a million ants protecting their queen with their lives, watch a cheetah mother sacrificing herself without a chance against a pride of lions just to give her cub a few seconds to get away. Altruism cannot be taught or learned, it's something you're born with, animals that work well together always beat the animals that don't.

Survival of the fittest does not refer soley on the individual, but also the collective. Darwin wrote a whole chapter on this very topic and in later years his musing was proved correct and now it's undeniable.

[War lord]

The irony being that the cassium bellum for the war in the middle east was brought on by people for whom God is the centre of life.

So yea.....

[Himster]

The irony being that the cassium bellum for the war in the middle east was brought on by people for whom God is the centre of life.

So yea.....

To be fair religion is only used as an excuse for war, the causes would be more akin to social and political reasons that actually religious differences.

[basics]

" The irony being that the cassium bellum for the war in the middle east was brought on by people for whom God is the centre of life."

War Lord,

And here was me thinking that all the wars in the middle east were to eradicate poor wee Israel apart from the Iran-Iraq and the later Iraq wars which only happened because Saddam had reneged on the pact he made with us after illegally invading Kuwait, having been thrown out.

[Copperknickers II]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamilto...ilton.27s_rule

Altruism does not only exist in nature, but it is the base on which all social relationships are built, from ant colonies to lion packs to human society. It's basic high school biology: symbiosis - where two animals cooperate for mutual benefit. If you help someone they are more likely to help you, therefore altruism to others gives you a greater chance of surviving and bearing offspring. Obviously, altruism is quickly thrown into the bin if you think that hindering another is going to make you better off.

[SigniferOne]

It's basic high school biology: symbiosis - where two animals cooperate for mutual benefit. If you help someone they are more likely to help you

Altruism is not helping someone so that they'll help you.

Altruism is an instinctual attribute, particularly among mammals.

The next time a person helps an old lady cross the street, I'll be sure to think he's nothing special. And as I'm walking by, not having helped her and filled with my self-satisfaction, I may even think that he's a loser because he's not getting where he needs to go, and he sure as hell is not getting his genes into the next generation.

You've been reading some really really bad stuff on what is instinctive and what altruism is .

Go onto youtube and watch the battle at kruger, read the thousands of first hand accounts about people baing saved by dolphins, watch a million ants protecting their queen with their lives, watch a cheetah mother sacrificing herself without a chance against a pride of lions just to give her cub a few seconds to get away.

If you can show me a clip where an animal performs an action knowing that it might die, then we'll say that you have a good example.

[♔Goodguy1066♔]

Altruism is not helping someone so that they'll help you.



The next time a person helps an old lady cross the street, I'll be sure to think he's nothing special. And as I'm walking by, not having helped her and filled with my self-satisfaction, I may even think that he's a loser because he's not getting where he needs to go, and he sure as hell is not getting his genes into the next generation.

You've been reading some really really bad stuff on what is instinctive and what altruism is .



If you can show me a clip where an animal performs an action knowing that it might die, then we'll say that you have a good example.

You completely ignored my post, didn't you?
Altruism can be acquired and developed, there is no good reason to think that:
A) God gave altruism only to humans
B) God created man with altruism ready-made, and created all animals on Earth as they are now.

OP's argument states that since only humans have altruism (not true), God must have created that. It must be true that God wanted us to rule the world, since he gave us something no other animal has. So I must ask, why did God create Goldfish uniquely too? Uniqueness isn't unique, so why should we believe altruism is evidence of God and ultra-violet/infra-red seeing ability that only Goldfish have isn't?

[basics]

" So I must ask, why did God create Goldfish uniquely too? "

Goodguy1066,

I think it is fair to say that each species whatever that may be is unique since every one was made unto its own kind. Now my English may be a little off here but if each to its own kind has any meaning then unique is the obvious, yes? But if you are separating vision to make a point how do you know that goldfish are the only ones with these qualities considering that we are still discovering new breeds from the oceans?

[♔Goodguy1066♔]

" So I must ask, why did God create Goldfish uniquely too? "

Goodguy1066,

I think it is fair to say that each species whatever that may be is unique since every one was made unto its own kind. Now my English may be a little off here but if each to its own kind has any meaning then unique is the obvious, yes? But if you are separating vision to make a point how do you know that goldfish are the only ones with these qualities considering that we are still discovering new breeds from the oceans?

How do you know Humans are the only ones with altruism?
My point was that OP's argument that "Altruism can't be natural since it is unique to humans, which means God wanted Humans to rule the Earth" makes no sense, since goldfish are unique as well and they don't do much except swim around in an aquarium all day and get sucked into the filter. Why does our uniqueness disprove the Theorum of Evolution (as it should be renamed)?

[Himster]

Altruism is not helping someone so that they'll help you.

True, but by helping the social organism you are inescapably helping yourself.

The next time a person helps an old lady cross the street, I'll be sure to think he's nothing special.

Good, helping old ladies should be the norm, it shouldn't be looked upon as some amazing feat.

And as I'm walking by, not having helped her and filled with my self-satisfaction, I may even think that he's a loser because he's not getting where he needs to go, and he sure as hell is not getting his genes into the next generation.

I don't think it'd be so easy to dampen your self-satisfaction.

You've been reading some really really bad stuff on what is instinctive and what altruism is .

My god you're disgustingly condescending. Don't worry, I'm not offended, I find this particular breed of rudeness to be amusing.

If you can show me a clip where an animal performs an action knowing that it might die, then we'll say that you have a good example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WimixexiiPE (I like this one because it speculates nicely on god's influence)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnNCx6yfIpk (start it at 3:09)

[Copperknickers II]

Altruism is not helping someone so that they'll help you.

My point is that the way altruism developed was by consciously or unconsciously helping another in order to benefit yourself. I'm not saying that we think 'If i give money to this malaria charity then we will have more healthy sweatshop workers to make my new trainers' of course, but subconsciously the reason we have altruism is that we wish to improve our reputation in the eyes of someone else or forge a personal connection with them. Sometimes that can take the form of pure selfless charity, which is probably due to social conditioning to be altruisticm which comes into play even when we cannot see any direct connection between them and us. The roots of that however can still be explained by evolution.