Libertus
Agent Orange and the Vietnamese war
As we all know, during the vietnamese war the americans used a deleafing agent called agent orange so it would be easier for them to find the NVA. Today people are still suffering from severe handicaps and deformation. In my opinion the whole vietnam war was a pathetic attempt at "penis measuring" with the Russians in someone elses territory. What do you think?
Re: Agent Orange and the Vietnamese war
I think we shoulda kept fighting till the commie scum were wiped out of Vietnam.
Libertus
Re: Agent Orange and the Vietnamese war
You realize that americans didn't just leave. They were pushed out. In my opinion its the same as the american revolution. They fought for independance over the puppet regime in the south. The reason that they chose communism wanst because Ho Chi Minh was stupid. It was simply that he needed weapons and that the US allready were supporting the french.
Le Paysan Soleil
Re: Agent Orange and the Vietnamese war
The use of Agent Orange was bad and the US should apologize and pay compensation.
No. The US pulled out because public and eventually political support for the war disapeared. Militarily the North and Viet Cong was beaten in most engagementsOriginally Posted by Bucken
Libertus
Re: Agent Orange and the Vietnamese war
Not after the Teht offensive
Le Paysan Soleil
Re: Agent Orange and the Vietnamese war
The Tet offfensive was a military disaster for the VC and North. They achieved nothing militarily other than suffering heavy losses. The only success of the Tet offensive was that it was a propaganda victory and it weakened public support for the war in the US.
Triggering
Re: Agent Orange and the Vietnamese war
No we left.
"When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."
My shameful truth.
Praefectus
Re: Agent Orange and the Vietnamese war
There wasn't anything wrong with the use of Agent Orange since it was helpful in the war effort and war isn't pretty.
These fine gentlemen's have thanks to their consistent idiotic posts have earned their place on my ignore list: mrmouth, The Illusionist, motiv-8, mongrel, azoth, thorn777 and elfdude. If you want to join their honourable rank you just have to post idiotic posts and you will get there in no time.
Praefectus
Re: Agent Orange and the Vietnamese war
Dow Chemical knew that the dioxin in AO was hazardous. They had meetings about the systemic damages the dioxin could cause, and they covered it up. --According to the US Government.There wasn't anything wrong with the use of Agent Orange since it was helpful in the war effort and war isn't pretty.
However, the US Government was aware of the lethality of the dioxins at the programs (Operation Ranch) inception. The amount of dioxin in Agent Orange was higher than the commericial products made by Dow because quality controls were reduced during production to meet production demand and cost reduction. The lethality of AO was disregarded, because military planners of Operation Ranch didn't consider the possibility that US troops would be affected by the dioxin. Additionally, during Operation Ranch, the amount of Agent Orange that was applied exceeded manufacturer specifications by a multiple of 25.
Other fundamentally flawed decisions increased the exposure of US troops to dioxin, including defoliation by incineration (this inceased the toxicity of dioxins in and near the area), failures to correctly account and re-direct defoliation missions because of the effect of weather on drift (drift calculations were originally in the range of 500 meters. Observers and tests indicated that actual drift was in the neighborhood of 6 kilometers).
In November of 1966, Operation Pink Rose attempted to defoliate 3 seperate war zones 7km square, the military dropped 255,000 gallons of AO concurrent with ground operations. The results were "The Pink Rose technique is ineffective as a method of removing forest crown canopy".
I'd continue with this, but it should be obvious that there was nothing RIGHT with the use of Agent Orange.
"Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
Praefectus
Re: Agent Orange and the Vietnamese war
The number of NVA/VC deaths as reported by the government of Viet Nam was 1.1 million. source, p2 US death casualties were 58,267 (includes MIA).
"Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
Libertus
Re: Agent Orange and the Vietnamese war
I don't want to know how many of those are civilian. Yet Americans where actually bad guys in that war.
Praefectus
Re: Agent Orange and the Vietnamese war
None of them. See, NVA/VC.
Estimes of civilian casualties are so skewed that it's hard to take any number seriouly. Some estimates go into the 10's of millions, but I strongly suspect that those "studies" were done with the intent of generating propoganda. I believe that 800,000 is a reasonable estimate.
"Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
From silence
Re: Agent Orange and the Vietnamese war
According to your source, it was 2 million civilians dead.
They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.
Re: Agent Orange and the Vietnamese war
How were we the bad guys? We were helping to stop the spread of communism and evil dictators. We were helping a country that was being invaded. We were saving the world from what appeared to be the greatest evil of the day. and yet you say we are the bad guys? Lets all bow to the holy and mighty Stalin....
Re: Agent Orange and the Vietnamese war
It's too bad that the regime we were supporting was so corrupt and disliked in South Vietnam that it was that much harder to convince the South Vietnamese to fight for their own country. The US had its reasons, even if they turn out to be flawed (domino effect) but to say that we were the good guys is wrong with the evidence of hindsight. Sure the North Vietnamese weren't saints, especially not to those who had allied with the US, but there's a reason that the South Vietnamese govt couldn't stand without the US. And people don't seem to realize that all the North Vietnamese really needed was propaganda victories, because the longer the war dragged on the fewer Americans were willing to tolerate casualties to support a regime barely better than the one we were fighting against. Sure we could've won militarily, but enough Americans decided that it just wasn't worth it.
On topic, I second xcorps line of reasoning: Agent Orange just screwed people up, and it often didn't work as it was supposed to. So it was doubly wrong.
Libertus
Re: Agent Orange and the Vietnamese war
Stalin was allready dead. And Ideaology has nothing to to with evil. Its the deeds of the people. Besides i hate to say it, but socialism has it's pros and it is a good thought.
Senator
Re: Agent Orange and the Vietnamese war
IDK bro Stalin, Hitler, and Mao's ideologies seemed pretty evil to me.
Only if you don't understand it.Besides i hate to say it, but socialism has it's pros and it is a good thought.
"If History is deprived of the truth, we are left with nothing but an idle, unprofitable tale." - Polybius
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Libertus
Re: Agent Orange and the Vietnamese war
Conclussion= war sucks
Can we all agree on that?
Imagine all the good words wikipedia can teach you.
Senator
Re: Agent Orange and the Vietnamese war
But er..this is the Total War forum, everyone here totally loves war
Libertus
Re: Agent Orange and the Vietnamese war
Americans deny the high civilian casualty rate while the vietnamese exaggerate.
Imagine all the good words wikipedia can teach you.
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