Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 46

Thread: [Medal] Jom for Phalera

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Legio's Avatar EMPRESS OF ALL THINGS
    Moderator Emeritus Content Emeritus

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Chlοėtopia
    Posts
    43,774

    Default [Medal] Jom for Phalera

    Proposer: Legio
    CdeC Support:Leonidas The Lion
    Supporters:Major Darling, Genius of the Restoration, jimkatalanos, 'The Hedge Knight, Viking Prince, Mega Tortas de Bodemloze, irishron, davide.cool

    Jom.
    On March 13th of 2010, a man of twenty-one logged onto Total War Center. He had joined the site in 2007, but had lost interest in it all. This was to be a rare occurrence, logging on. Sighing as his fingers clacked on the keyboard of his laptop, Jom did not know that he was about to embark on the journey of a lifetime.

    Lying next to him on the crinkled bedcovers was a copy of Napoleon: Total War, still in its cellophane wrap. Jom had always been a fan of Total War games, and this one was sure to excite him. Line infantry held a special place in his heart; and after his brief stint with Empire, Jom was sure that Sega would not let him down. Initially, Jom struggled with the cellophane and its apparent death grip on the plastic box. Success!

    He popped the disc into the drive and started Steam. In a matter of minutes, he was ready to play. But Jom was not satisfied. Even on Very Hard difficulty, he could trounce any enemy. He needed something more. Something to challenge him. With that, he went off to find some mods. They were sure to make his game more challenging!

    But it was not modding which led Jom on the path which he has taken. The path that he was bred for. The path that he was born for.

    It was not a rogue mouse click that first led him to the dim pits of the Discussion and Debate fora; nor was it a desire to prove to the world that ENGLAND was supreme. Despite his stout heart of oak, Jom strode into the 'Pit calmly. A post, a rebuttal, another post. He had never felt more alive. The moment when an opponent abandoned his line of reasoning, conceding defeat, was as sweet music to him. It was as if he had been bred for this.

    And indeed he was, but Jom was not confined to the pits of Mud in the unhallowed halls of Debate. Soon after his return to Total War Center, he joined the Helios. Jom first wrote for Issue 50, and his rather excellent article was published by Astaroth with glee. Before Issue 51 was even in the works, Astaroth promoted Jom as the new Editor of the Helios. Since then, Jom has masterfully edited Issues 51 through 55. His editorials are sublime, and on occasion Jom feels the need to write an article or two for the perusal of the community. They can all be read here.

    Jom did not forget his roots, being a very humble Jom. Even after his elevation to citizen and subsequent promotion to moderation staff, Jom enjoys posting in the Debate fora. Examples of his posts can be found here, here, and here. Jom also demonstrates great ability to stick to an argument and continue to discuss it as it evolves throughout a thread. From this post onwards he debates a topic across a period of 6 days, constantly challenging and rebutting. He can also stimulate debate with an interesting piece of source material, such as here.

    He makes exemplary posts to this very day, such as here, here, and here. Even a perfunctory glance through his posting history will show that Jom is an exceptionally talented debater. He has never lost his cool. He has gone out of his way to provide a concise and well thought out argument, even translating entire articles from French! He has written full articles about contemporary issues, some of which are even stored in the Scriptorium.

    Even in the Questions and Suggestions forum, where tempers are frequently frayed, Jom has been exceedingly helpful. HERE HERE HERE

    In conclusion, ladies and gentlemen of the Curia, Jom is one of the most deserving persons of this award that I have ever seen. He is a flawless debater and a gentleman.

    I present, JOM!
    Last edited by Legio; November 27, 2010 at 02:52 PM.

  2. #2
    Leonidas The Lion's Avatar Until we win! Or die.
    Content Emeritus

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    UK/Der Freistaat Griechenland
    Posts
    10,406

    Default Re: [Medal] Jom for Phalera

    Cdec Support.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jom View Post
    When using the stick and carrot approach, remember that what you have to do is shove the carrot up their arse and then beat them with the stick.
    Check out my YouTube Channel here
    Under The Patronage Of jimkatalanos
    Patron Of
    Murfios,
    Bolkonsky and DekuTrash


  3. #3

    Default Re: [Medal] Jom for Phalera

    CdeC Support

  4. #4
    Genius of the Restoration's Avatar You beaut and magical
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    6,174

    Default Re: [Medal] Jom for Phalera

    Jom's contributions are of high quality in every thread he posts in. His efforts in bringing clarity of expression and argument to the murky waters of the Mudpit have had a positive influence on the whole board IMO. It's even rumoured that his name is to become a verb.

    Support.

  5. #5
    Legio's Avatar EMPRESS OF ALL THINGS
    Moderator Emeritus Content Emeritus

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Chlοėtopia
    Posts
    43,774

    Default Re: [Medal] Jom for Phalera

    Added to the list of supporters.

  6. #6
    jimkatalanos's Avatar 浪人
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Nationless
    Posts
    14,483

    Default Re: [Medal] Jom for Phalera

    Support.
    Ερωτηθεὶς τι ποτ' αυτώ περιγέγονεν εκ φιλοσοφίας, έφη, «Το ανεπιτάκτως ποιείν ά τινες διά τον από των νόμων φόβον ποιούσιν.


    Under the professional guidance of TWC's Zone expert Garbarsardar
    Patron of Noble Savage, Dimitri_Harkov, MasterOfThessus, The Fuzz, aja5191, Furin, neoptolemos, AnthoniusII, Legio, agisilaos, Romanos IV, Taiji, Leo, Jom, Jarlaxe






    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The universe is change; our life is what our thoughts make it.


    The soul becomes dyed with the color of its thoughts.


    If you desire to be good, begin by believing that you are wicked.


    We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.


    οὕτως ἀταλαίπωρος τοῖς πολλοῖς ἡ ζήτησις τῆς ἀληθείας, καὶ ἐπὶ τὰ ἑτοῖμα μᾶλλον τρέπονται.


    Questions are not necessarily there to be answered, but possibly there to inspire thinking.


    Nullius addictus iurare in verba magistri, - quo me cumque rapit tempestas, deferor hospes.


    If mind is common to us, then also the reason, whereby we are reasoning beings, is common. If this be so, then also the reason which enjoins what is to be done or left undone is common. If this be so, law also is common; if this be so, we are citizens; if this be so, we are partakers in one constitution; if this be so, the Universe is a kind of commonwealth.


    Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.


    There is no chaos in the world, only complexity.
    Knowledge of the complex is wisdom.
    From wisdom of the world comes wisdom of the self.
    Mastery of the self is mastery of the world. Loss of the self is the source of suffering.
    Suffering is a choice, and we can refuse it.
    It is in our power to create the world, or destroy it.


    Homo homini lupus est. Homo sacra res homini.


    When deeds speak, words are nothing.


    Human history is a litany of blood, shed over different ideals of rulership and afterlife


    Sol lucet omnibus.


    You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.


    Neither should a ship rely on one small anchor, nor should life rest on a single hope.


    The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.


    Ο Νούς νοεί τον εαυτόν του ως κράτιστος και η νόησή του είναι της νοήσεως νόησις.


    'Nothing is true, everything is permitted.' is merely an observation of the nature of reality. To say that nothing is true, is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say that everything is permitted, is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic.

  7. #7
    The Hedge Knight's Avatar Fierce When Cornered
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    England
    Posts
    5,875

    Default Re: [Medal] Jom for Phalera

    Support this. Jom talks to me on the irc somtimes (and does loads of other great things).

  8. #8
    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    18,577

    Default Re: [Medal] Jom for Phalera

    I sure wished I had put in sooner to read this thread.

    Support! This support is not needed. though.
    Grandson of Silver Guard, son of Maverick, and father to Mr MM|Rebel6666|Beer Money |bastard stepfather to Ferrets54
    The Scriptorium is looking for great articles. Don't be bashful, we can help with the formatting and punctuation. I am only a pm away to you becoming a published author within the best archive of articles around.
    Post a challenge and start a debate
    Garb's Fight Club - the Challenge thread






    .


    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















    Quote Originally Posted by Hagar_the_Horrible
    As you journey through life take a minute every now and then to give a thought for the other fellow. He could be plotting something.


  9. #9
    Legio's Avatar EMPRESS OF ALL THINGS
    Moderator Emeritus Content Emeritus

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Chlοėtopia
    Posts
    43,774

    Default Re: [Medal] Jom for Phalera

    Added everyone to the list of supporters!

  10. #10
    Aikanįr's Avatar no vaseline
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sanctuary
    Posts
    12,516
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default Re: [Medal] Jom for Phalera

    Since I'm not participating in the debating fora here, I honestly have no clue at all about Jom's contributions, but in Legio's and his Hegemon's judgement I trust, hence absaining stained support


    Son of Louis Lux, brother of MaxMazi, father of Squeaks, Makrell, Kaiser Leonidas, Iskar, Neadal, Sheridan, Bercor and HigoChumbo, house of Siblesz

    Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts.

  11. #11
    Mega Tortas de Bodemloze's Avatar Do it now.
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Fort Hood, Texas/Parramatta, New South Wales, Bristol, Tennessee
    Posts
    11,527

    Default Re: [Medal] Jom for Phalera

    Aye....TotW Support for young bronze Jom, may his crusading zeal & zest for Justice in the D&D never end....

    Throw it at him...and then make sure it sticks....

  12. #12
    irishron's Avatar Cura Palatii
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Cirith Ungol
    Posts
    47,023

    Default Re: [Medal] Jom for Phalera

    From my dealings with Jom, support.

  13. #13

    Default Re: [Medal] Jom for Phalera

    Is Phalera also for Content?

  14. #14
    Legio's Avatar EMPRESS OF ALL THINGS
    Moderator Emeritus Content Emeritus

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Chlοėtopia
    Posts
    43,774

    Default Re: [Medal] Jom for Phalera

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Darling View Post
    Is Phalera also for Content?
    Constitution:
    Phalera
    To qualify for a Phalera award, the nominee must have made exceptional input or otherwise made significant contributions to non-TW sections of the boards. A member of any Rank is eligible to receive an Phalera award, but must also meet the criteria to become a Citizen. His nomination must also be seconded by an elected member of the Consilium de Civitate.

    Qualifying nominees shall have their nomination posted in the Prothalamos and will be moved to vote as per the procedure in Section II, Article III. Once moved to they shall be voted upon for a period of one week and require a two-third majority of non-abstaining votes to achieve the award. If the nominee was not already a Citizen, this Rank shall also be conferred upon them if they pass. A nominee who fails to pass his vote is not eligible to re-nominated until three months have passed.


    Precedent for using Content for Phalera in Freddie's nomination HERE.

  15. #15
    DAVIDE's Avatar QVID MELIVS ROMA?
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    ITALIA
    Posts
    15,811

    Default Re: [Medal] Jom for Phalera

    I SUPPORT

  16. #16

    Default Re: [Medal] Jom for Phalera

    Cool, just checking

  17. #17
    Lysimachus's Avatar Spirit Cleric
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    8,085

    Default Re: [Medal] Jom for Phalera

    I've been tossing the idea around in my head about whether I should post or not, but i've thought that as long as I back up what I say then I won't do too much damage to my limited reputation by posting my stance here. Now while medal nominations are normally given unanimous support (especially in the Prothalamos nomination threads), i'm going to state my opposition to this.

    Why? To the regular citizen the first thing that will come to mind is probably that I have some ulterior motive and that i'm nuts. Maybe I am. But there is no other motive besides the fact that I don't think Jom's posting is of Phalera quality. I believe Rome kb8 was a similar candidate, despite being a far more prolific poster.

    Now in my eyes, the holders of the Phalera medal are meant to represent the epitome of posting quality. They should be able to establish a point of view, back it up strongly and make informative, clear, long and concise posts consistently without fail. Now in his opening post, Legio links to this post as an example of his credibility. Let's take a look at the post in question:

    I question the rationality of enabling a drug addict to feed his addiction whilst encouraging him to go through an unnecessary surgical procedure.
    Okay. It's clear that he's questioning the views of the member he's replying to. What he's saying is perfectly valid. But what makes this post so extraordinary? I would expect that from an average mudpit poster who has a logical train of thought. No, not a bad post. But not excellent.

    Then the second example provided was here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jom View Post
    Anecdotal evidence in an online debate with the entire internet at your fingertips is not the best basis for an argument.

    Signifierone, you are coming out with statements like "large proportions" which are the very archetype of weasel words used to back up your flimsy argument. Unless you can produce concrete figures, I suggest you withdraw from this style of posting.



    Surely, if this problem is reaching the "large proportions" that you complain about, someone will have done this collection; there would be some sort of study written about this phenomenon. If you could point to it that would be of great help.
    He questions the view of a user once more. But surely if one wanted to actually prove the member wrong they would offer evidence against the person they're debating with? Now i'm familiar with the concept of the burden of proof, but the way I see it is that if you want to make clear to someone that their viewpoint is misguided then you show them facts contradicting their side of the argument so as to make them rethink their stance. All I see here is "you're wrong, if not prove it" dressed in a grammatically correct post making use of a number of complex words.

    The third example given by Legio was this. There's a link in this one but it's still a post of a few lines. I think to make a good post an excellent post you need to elaborate your points further. That way you can further solidify your argument so that only those who were blindly ignorant or who purposely make use of skewed logic couldn't see the sense of it.

    Slightly further down, Legio offers two examples of "challenging and rebutting" here and here. Now personally, I expect that from any run of the mill citizen and don't understand what's so extraordinary about it.

    I'm not disputing that he's a good debater. My entire post is going to come across as demeaning since i'm not in agreement with the views of the majority, but these posts just do not reach the Phalera standard. To further make my point, I believe I should cherry-pick two posts from a number of notable holders of the award just to show what they're expected to come out with. You might want to check the actual links than the spoilered posts by the way, the formatting as I transferred it here is quite poor.

    ThiudareiksGunthigg

    Was medieval warfare a progression from ancient warfare?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Feeble non-reply noted. You've been caught red-handed trying to pass off two second-hand quotes from DeVries as first-hand citations. Anyone can see that. Your smartest move now would be to slink away from this glaring exposure of your pretence to knowledge you don't have and hope it gets forgotten. Though I can assure you it won't be.



    The muddled bungling continues. Try to pay attention Siggy - I said "we" weren't fooled by your lies about the Contamine and Liddle Hart quotes you lifted from DeVries, you asked who "we" were and I replied that "we" were myself and the people who had given me rep for exposing your lies about those quotes. Please try to keep up. It had nothing at all to do with them being "medieval experts", just people who aren't fooled by lies.



    The tactic was to have your cavalry "battles" as closely ordered in your first line as possible. If the ground was such that you couldn't use all your cavalry in the first line to do this, you held the rest of your cavalry in reserve. This was one way in which a reserve could be formed in a Medieval battle array, though Contamine goes on to detail several others. And this is in a section of his book about which you bravely declared "(t)here are no other references to tactical reserves in the whole chapter". I went on and showed you four others in the next three pages.



    That nice little piece of quibbling sort of flies in the face of the fact that the very author you're trying to claim describes no "tactics" introduces the tactics I mention by saying "the critical study of sources in all normal cases allows the existence of some fundamental tactical principles to be discovered, whose applications was considered indispensable or at least highly desirable." Congratulations - you're now quibbling with Contamine.



    Wrong Siggy, those are very much your words and found nowhere in the relevant section of Contamine's book. The closest thing he says to "medieval battles usually were instinctive and confused" is where he says "many battles ... were nothing but hasty, instinctive and confused" (p. 229). Trying to twist "many" into "usually" is a nice trick, but it won't work. And the idea that he said they "usually had no concept of a tactical reserve" exists entirely in your imagination.

    These blunders are remarkable, but they perhaps explain why your odd ideas are so impervious. You have the uncanny inability to read what is actually there and only seem to see what you would like the writer to have said.



    No Siggy: context is your friend. Contamine said "many plans failed to mature". Using your Siggy-powered magic word wand, you changed that to mean "a majority of medieval campaigns were badly planned or mismanaged". Hey presto - "many" magically becomes "a majority" and, once again, Siggy sees what he wants to see. By changing the right words, of course.



    Oh please. No commander committed to pitched battle in any period, given the risks of unexpected turns of events and the loss of troops they involved, if their objectives could be achieved some other way. In the Medieval period military fortifications became more sophisticated and widespread as a way of giving commanders, especially those on the defensive, other options. This in turn developed into a form of warfare where skirmish, ambushes, manoeuvre and sallies from or around fortified strongpoints were more common than open battle. The rise of more effective siege weapons, especially cannons, meant that later this style of war declined and was replaced by something closer to the Classical model.

    Yet again, you're mistaking "different" for "inferior".



    Oh I don't know - perhaps it's the fact that I've caught you red handed fibbing about quotes, shown you that Contamine says things you say he doesn't and doesn't say things you claim he does and have essentially kicked your butt on every point in this debate so far.



    I know precisely what Ringeck and Odoacer think of you Siggy. If they choose to post in reply to you in a different way that's their business. Personally, I pick and choose who I respond to with respect and politeness.



    Hold the phone - is Siggy reading what he wants to read rather than what's there? The Italian militia gave as good as they got against feudal forces, as the examples I gave to Konny in my reply to him above clearly show. That is more than enough to support my claim they were an effective force


    Vestigia Vetustatis Helpful hints for beginners

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Some good guidelines. A couple of points though:

    "Peer review" doesn't actually refer to the reaction to a work by others in the field after it is published (that's its "reception"), but to a formal process of analysis before it's published.

    Articles in academic journals or other periodical publications and books published by scholarly presses usually go through a peer review process. This entails the publisher submitting the work to a number of acknowleged experts in the subject or area of the work in question and asking them to give a detailed analysis and recommendation whether or not the work should be published. The reviewers are anonymous to the author of the work and they submit a review report and their recommendation. They aren't asked if they agree with the conclusions or argument of the work (often they don't), but only to analyse whether the argument is soundly based on the evidence presented, whether any other evidence has been missed out, whether the arguments are coherent and valid, whether the works cited are correctly referenced and are reputable and reliable works of scholarship themselves and whether there has been any recognised plagiarism, misrepresentation or any other academic fraud.

    Once the published has received their reports they can decided to publish, not publish or to recommend revisions which may allow them to publish. This process is not foolproof, but it protects journals and publishers from presenting erronrous, badly argued or fraudulent information and it requires researchers to stick to the rules of academic analysis if they want to get their work into print.

    The information and opinions in peer-reviewed works are therefore far more likely to be reliable than something published without any academic oversight by a popular press.

    The trick is working out whether a work has been peer-reviewed or not. Generally any paper published in an academic journal has been, as have works published by the publishing houses of universities (eg the Oxford University Press). But there are also private publisher which specialise in academic books (eg Blackwells) and who submit their manuscripts to peer review as well. The author and the structure of the content will also give you a clue. Authors who hold teaching or research positions at universities will generally publish works through the peer review process or, even if they write a popular work, they will draw on books which have been. And most (but not all) works with footnotes, endnotes and extensive bibliographies are also more likely to be reliable than ones which don't reference their material.

    Popular publishers, on the other hand, are less interested in how reliable, coherent or credible information in a book is and more interested in whether it will sell. So they might publish a highly accurate and reliable book by a famous scientist or historian because they think it might have an audience. Or they might publish sensationalist garbage by a total lunatic simply because it might sell lots of copies. So just because something is in a book and even if that book is put out by a major publishing house doesn't mean the information in it is always reliable; non-academic presses are interested in money, not accuracy or credibility.

    Of course, the internet complicates all this considerably. Unlike with books, where you can usually tell if the author is a professional scholar or has relied on work by professional scholars, a web page can be put up by anyone. And even if they claim to have credentials, no publisher or reviewer has checked if these are true. Web pages can and often do cite books and other reference material, but can often do so in a way that doesn't allow you to check where this material has come from.

    On top of all this, "print-on-demand" self publishing services via the web now means just about anyone can publish a book about absolutely anything. They can also kit their book out with the illusion of scholarship, with forewords, charts and tables, footnotes and bibliographies which - unless you know how to analyse these things - can be totally flawed or bogus. Not only are these works not peer-reviewed or scruntinised for accuracy as academic titles are, they aren't even looked over by an editor or (in many cases) read by anyone other than the author before they get released online. So if a book is self-published then "let the buyer beware" - there's a good chance it's simply a fringe idea by an amateur who couldn't get into print any other way.

    What to Look For:

    (i) Is the author a professional academic associated with a university or research institution?

    (ii) Is the work published by a credible academic press?

    (iii) Does the author reference their claims and list the works used in their research in a Bibliography and/or notes? If so, are the books in the notes and bibliogrphy reputable, professional works?

    (iii) Was the book well recevied by other experts and praised in reviews by qualified reviewers?

    (iv) With websites - does the writer refer to or reference source material and secondary works like the ones mentioned above? Are the claims found on the site supported and backed up by other sites, books, articles and sources (and how credible are they?)

    What to Beware Of

    (i) Beware of books by small-time presses or self-published works that claim to present radical new information or perspectives - if the author has such amazing information, why can't he get it published by a major press?

    (ii) Beware of any book, even by a big publisher, that claims to "reveal hidden secrets" or "uncover the real story" or to otherwise overturn established ideas etc. This rarely happens via popular paperbacks.

    (iii) Beware of any book published by any press or organisation with an agenda. A book on how the Holocaust never happened is unlikely to be reliable if it's published by a neo-Nazi group. A history of Christianity by the American Atheist press is less likely to be objective compared to one published by the University of Cambridge.

    (iv) Treat any self-published book with a high degree of scepticism.

    (v) With webpages, double and triple-check all claims on the web against several other sources, preferably books or web-pages which are heavily supported by references. Even then, check the references.

    There's an increasing tendency today to trust anything that happens to be in print. Considering it's now easier than any time in history to get your work in print - via the web or even in book form - and in front of potentially millions of people, this is actually a time to be a lot more sceptical about what we read. And scepticism and constant checking and cross-referencing is the key to good research.

    Of course, you can also ignore all that and just post the first thing you find on the web that seems to support what you think. But then you run the risk of being hung, drawn and quartered in public by big meanies like me.


    FliegerAD

    Domitian's lost legion - Legio V Aladue

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Some things are researched more in depth, some less so – as the case of the Alaudae nicely illustrates sometimes people just write off things because they concentrate on other things which they really research.
    An appeal to authority would be very dim-witted anyway, so you certainly do not want it, do you?

    Of course Fuscus had a large army with him, he was the Praetorian Prefect after all! That does not automatically mean much of this force was lost just because they were defeated. Again, we know of Dacian assaults on Roman command and control inflicting serious losses on it, but leaving the Roman army largely intact. In any case this is more likely than the loss of many legions which somehow gone unnoticed – even by the legions themself, which continued to exist . It is because the only legion that certainly ceased to exist during that time was the Rapax, and since we have direct mentioning of one legion only destroyed during that time, by Sarmatian arms, it is easy to connect these two events.
    That does not mean that there were no losses, it might have been that legions suffered severely, which could explain Tacitus’s assessment. Still Tacitus does not connect it to the battle of Tapae (unless Dacia and Moesia suddenly mean Tapae only); even Jordanes, who massively overstates the ‘Gothic’ victories, including this ‘great’ one, can’t tell of large losses. But since he gets a lot of things wrong in the whole story…

    Back on Tacitus, the Oxford edition on the Agricola text by Birley reads: “These calamitous events are recorded by Suetonius in his Life of Domitian.” That text I have already quoted, it specifies the loss of a legion against the Sarmatians, which also could have happened in Moesia, btw, since there were Iazyges roaming (cf. Cassius Dio 67,12).

    Anyway it is safe to conclude all you got are random notes of losses, neither specified in numbers nor location, and your logic relating them to Tapae. As far as your logic and understanding of ancient military strategy and that of Domitian in particularly is concerned I am not too impressed.
    Just one example: You seem to imply Domitian asked for peace because he was defeated by the Dacians and thus offered and then paid tribute. However, yet again, that is not what we are told!

    Cassius Dio 67,6-7:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Decebalus, the king of the Dacians, was making overtures to Domitian, promising him peace; but Domitian sent Fuscus against him with a large force. On learning of this Decebalus sent to him an embassy anew with the insulting proposal to make peace with the emperor, on condition that every Roman should elect to pay two obols to Decebalus each year; otherwise, he declared, he would make war and inflict great ills upon the Romans.
    Domitian, wishing to requite the Quadi and the Marcomani because they had not assisted him against the Dacians, entered Pannonia with the intention of making war upon them; and he put to death the second group of envoys which had been sent by the enemy to propose terms of peace.
    Domitian, having been defeated by the Marcomani, took to flight, and hastily sending messages to Decebalus, king of the Dacians, induced him to make a truce, though he himself had hitherto refused to grant one in response to the frequent requests of Decebalus. And so Decebalus accepted his overtures, for he had suffered grievous hardships; yet he did not wish to hold a conference with Domitian personally, but instead sent Diegis with the men, to give him the arms and a few captives, who, he pretended, were the only ones that he had. When this had been done, Domitian placed a diadem on the head of Diegis, just as if he had truly conquered and could give the Dacians anyone he pleased to be their king. To the soldiers he granted honours and money. And, just as if he had won a victory, he sent to Rome, among other things, envoys from Decebalus and also a letter from the king, as he claimed, though rumour declared that he had forged it. He graced the festival that followed with many exhibits appropriate to a triumph, though they came from no booty that he had captured; on the contrary, the truce had cost him something besides his losses, for he had given large sums of money to Decebalus on the spot as well as artisans of every trade pertaining to both peace and war, and had promised to keep on giving large sums in the future. The exhibits which he displayed really came from the store of imperial furniture, which he at all times treated as captured spoils, inasmuch as he had enslaved even the empire itself.


    So only after Domitian had been defeated by Germanic forces in Pannonia did he sent messages to Decebalus, who himself had been suing for peace before and was in “grievous hardships” – which does not really sound like a string of great victories with broken legions all along the borders.
    That means: whatever the losses of the Romans against the Dacians had been, it was their losses against the Marcomanni that made Domitian think he could not militarily defend the Balkans. Not a single mention about the role of the Dacian victory at Tapae.


    Why Frederick the Great lost at Kunersdorf and Kolin?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    These are some weird ideas of being ‚outnumbered’...

    First on the Prussians: by 1756 the field army consisted of 123.000 men, with 8.000 in reserve and 30500 in garrisons. That high number was never reached again in the Seven Years War. It is, btw, the official number given by the History Department of the Prussian Generals’ Staff (1) Other give lower numbers, ranging around 145000 men e.g. (2)
    Frederick took 62.000 for his invasion of Saxony (3), while the rest were deployed to defend against the threads of Sweden in North, which later indeed landed near Stettin, France and German allied in the west, and Russia in the east, which also came.

    The Austrians had 177.444 men, of which 15.700 were border protection (Grenztruppen) (4), others give higher number of 201.000 (5). Initiated by Maria Theresia, who hated Frederick, Leopold von Daun had reformed the Austrian army, so that the quality gap between the infantry of Prussia and Austria had been reduced, if not eliminated. In turn, Frederick’s actions to reform his cavalry were equally successful, so that the Austrians enjoyed only a small, if any, advantage. Quality-wise both armies were close to each other.

    The French army (not including the navy) numbered between 200.000 and 213.000 in 1756, depending on the source (6), and around 290.000 by war’s end, of which 140.000 were operating on German grounds, with tens of thousands remaining in France still (7). That is not surprising since the Second Treaty of Versailles obligated France to provide 105.000 troops for an offensive and subside further German allies (8). So saying the French were not fully committed to the war is off the mark. That they made such a poor performance in spite their numbers is hardly the fault of Frederick, but rather a result of his strategy and the great defensive operations of his minor allies.

    The claim Russia was less committed is true, however. Of it’s 172.240 field troops, only 60.000 up to 130.000, depending on the campaign, actually went on the offensive (9). Considering Frederick situation this was more than enough anyway. The first battle was given by some 25.000 Prussians against 55.000 Russians, in August 30 1757 (10).
    Of course again, one can argue about the exact numbers that were involved in battle, and Kunersdorf is an excellent example. The Prussian army numbers are quite clear, around 48.000-50.000, including the 7.000 troops guarding Frankfurt a.O. The numbers of the Austro-Russian army vary in the sources, ranging from 79.000 to 60.000. In the best case, Frederick had 10.000 men less than his enemy, in the worst case, he had 31.000 men less. That is quite outnumbered in my book, anyway!


    As for the German minors, the numerical superiority again was against Frederick. Furthermore, one needs to add the 14.000 Swedes who occupied an area near Stettin, right in the back of Frederick.



    From: P.H. Wilson: German Armies. War and German Politics, pp.267-286.


    It is more than obvious that Frederick was in a situation of sever numerical inferiority throughout the war, with the exception of Saxony’s invasion. The fact that he did survive this situation must be attributed to his strategy. The Russians, French, Austrians did not stop their advances after Kunersdorf – and after years in which whole armies of them were annihilated – because they just did not feel like it, or because they were not so committed… It was Frederick, who still had an operational fighting force, and violently interrupted enemy plans.

    One can try to belittle that achievement all day long, but as a matter of fact: in the end he never lost a war.





    Btw, Napoleon was one of those people. When he wrote about Frederick, Napoleon always picked the highest number for the Prussians, the lowest for the enemy etc.
    It is almost poetic justice that he died as prisoner in middle of nowhere, while Frederick died as the first King of Prussia, having made his little country a Great Power of his time.



    (1) S. Fiedler: Taktik und Strategie der Kabinettskriege, p.141
    (2) D. Marston: The Seven Years War, p.20; J. Mollo: Uniforms of the Seven Years War, p.9
    (3) S. Millar: Kolin 1757, p.11
    (4) Fiedler: op.cit., p.85
    (5) Marston: op.cit., p.23
    (6) Ibid., p.24; Mollo: op.cit., p.34
    (7) H. Delbrück: Geschichte der Kriegskunst, vol.4, bk.3, ch.5
    (8) Marston: op.cit., p.35
    (9) Ibid., p.22; Mollo: op.cit., p.49
    (10) A. Konstam: Russian Army of the Seven Years War, p.4


    Phoebus

    Sarissa Combat

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Alexander's phalanx would have been sub-divided in tactical units of (nominally) 256 men each. Typically, these men would have marched in either a 16x16 man square, or a 8x32 (8 deep, 32 wide) rectangle.

    On the march to the melee, the phalangites would have marched in one of two "open" formations: each man would separated by the other by 6 to 3 feet, depending on the type. Prior to closing in, though, the formation would close. The historians claim the shields would overlap in this mode, but this really isn't the case, since that would prevent the sarissae from projecting past them. From a short distance, though, the optical illusion would be such as to indicate a seamless formation of spears and shields.

    The individual phalangite would have presented a three-quarter profile to his opponent: face your imaginary foe and (if you're right-handed), turn 45 degrees to the right. He would have held his sarissa with both hands, left in front of the right. His sarissa would have been about 16 feet long, but perhaps only 12 feet projected in front of him (I can't remember the exact figure being where I'm at right now), the remainder being used as a counterweight (assisted by an actual counterweight/spike at the bottom end). That same weight and length would force him to advance into the melee (not while marching) not fully erect, but with a slight lean forward. His shield had an approximately two foot diameter. That sounds small, and modern historians tend to label it a buckler. A well-fed, fighting man of the times, though (most likely around 5'6"-5'10"), leaning slightly forward, would have his body covered by this "buckler" from cheek-bone almost to his knee. With a three-quarter profile, the entire width of his torso would have been covered.

    Each row in this formation was arranged by rank. The first guy was essentially the top dog for the fifteen men behind him. He got paid more, was afforded better privileges, etc. The two behind him also enjoyed higher and pay, though not to the same degree. Because the formation could be doubled in width (and thus cut half, depth-wise), the 8th man (who would find himself at the very front in this case) was also afforded greater rank and pay. Finally, the 16th man was also an officer of sorts, being that he was in charge of ensuring the men in front of him marched in good order; and if the formation should do an about face, it was still led by a veteran. Modern historians offer that only the front-rankers would have been significantly armored (besides a shield and helmet), but common sense would imply that higher-paid officers in the 8th and 16th spots would also have been armored (status, the possibility of finding oneself in the front if the wider front was chosen). And, if you're like me, you probably think about the fact that the Macedonians in Alexander's time fought countless sieges would have made armor desirable for the thousands of soldiers who fought in ranks 4-7 and 9-15 but suddenly found themselves without the benefit of phalanx protection.


    What if the Romans had adopted the Macedonian Phalanx instead?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The thing to consider, though, is why the hammer was used poorly or was absent.

    Did Pyrrhus, Phillip V, Perseus, or Antiochus fail to field a significant number of cavalry? Certainly not. What do the extant sources have to say about the quality of their cavalry? That of Pyrrhus and Antiochus certainly performed well enough, and Phillip's was supposed to be the equal of any in Greece at that time.

    I honestly doubt it had as much to do with the quality of the cavalry as it did with the quality of the specific commanders.

    As for the sarissa, I'd say chalk that up less on a growing dependence on the phalanx and more on Greek-speaking people focusing their warfare primarily against one another. The lengthening of the sarissa was less about the phalanx being the focal point and more of just keeping up with your neighbor. If two kingdoms both fielded phalanxes and one chose to add an extra foot to his pike, what would the other do? The simplest answer would be to match the length, but that doesn't necessarily imply an abandonment of the other parts of the army.


    rez

    Did the 'Immortals' Fight At Platea?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    And If they did what can we learn from this tiny piece of information?


    Quite a lot actually. But first lets discuss the possibility that they were absent since it is a minority theory.

    Xenophon tells us that a bodyguard of ten thousand spearmen was created by Cyrus the Great to protect the King. They travelled with him and guarded either his tent or palace as required. In battle they were drawn up around the King (Xenophon, Cyropaedia, 7. 5. 66-68).

    Now Lendering and, to an extent, Briant suggest that due to their duty as the bodyguards of the King they would not have been seperated from Xerxes after Salamis. For who then would guard his person? Moreover the tale of Hydarnes, commander of the immortals, refusing to be parted from the King lends at least some credence to the idea that they would not operate away from the monarch.

    However, this obviously directly contravenes the words of Herodotus who explicitly states the immortals stayed with Mardonius in Greece. But he doesn't, however, actually mention them during the battle he simply refers to "The Persians." (Herodotus, 9. 59-68).

    The idea being that Mardonius retained the regular regiment of Persians but Herodotus named them as the immortals since his narrative required the Greeks to defeat the best of the Persians.


    On the other hand, the Immortals are directly referenced as being a part of Mardonius' army (Herodotus, 8. 113). But to my mind the most obvious flaw in the above theory is the idea that the King required 10,000 bodyguards.

    It seems to me that Xenophon is confusing the Immortals with the 'Melophoroi' (Greek) or 'Arstibara' (old Persian). Who formed a guard of 1000 men and turn up in numerous Greek sources. The most explicit of which being Heraclides of Cyme who states in his Persica that the King's bodyguard comprised 1000 well-born spearmen who were recruited from the Immortals (Athenaeus, 12. 514c). Moreover Herodotus mentions a thousand man corps of high-born spearmen in his description of Xerxes march (Herodotus, 7. 41). Persian bodyguard divisions might have been uniformly made up of 1000 men since the noble Oroetus also retained 1000 Persian spearmen (Herodotus 3. 127-128).

    But other than this we simply have to look at the duty required of these guardsmen and ask ourselves how anyone could require ten thousand men to serve as a personal guard? For those of you fortunate enough to have been to Persepolis you will know that the palace would not have required anywhere near the amount of ten thousand men to successfully guard it. Of course any other capitals the Persian monarch would have resided at would certainly have included their own sizeable garrisons since they were the chief cities of the empire. We would also have to wonder who was guarding Xerxes' tent and person during the operation at Thermopylae.

    Thus it appears that Xenophon was describing the wrong unit for his King's bodyguard. So if Xenophon was wrong and the Immortals comprised a legitimate military division then the only reasoning left to suggest that the Immortals weren't at Platea is to assert that Herodotus was lying. Frankly that kind of assertion without any corroboration is plain useless.

    Hence we can be pretty certain that the Immortals fought at Platea. Now what does that tell us about the Immortals?

    Well obviously the first assertion is that the regiment was capable of operating without Royal leadership. Secondly that the stable rock of the Achaemenid military infrastructure was utterly destroyed in the invasion of Greece. But for me the most interesting information comes in the armament of the Immortals.

    Herodotus tells us that the Persian infantry marched to war with Spear, shield, sword, bow and arrow. Thus you will often find (terrible) reconstructions of the Immortals that portray a soldier carrying all of this equipment.



    However the description of the battle at Platea heavily implies that the Persians had a wall of shielded spearmen protecting archers who drew swords when the Spartans killed the shield bearers (Herodotus, 9. 61-63). The tactics described indicate the Immortals carried the Spara shield rather than the Diplyon and they certainly couldn't have all carried all the weaponry described. We can however assert that all of the Immortals wore armour in the light of Herodotus' original description and the multiple instances of attic pottery depicting cuirassed archers. Particularly this vase dated to the 460's which appears to have been immortalising the Spartan effort at Platea.



    At any rate we can tell that the disposition of the Immortals, in regards to their offensive weaponry and tactics, was exactly the same as the regular Persian line infantry. The areas where they differed can be summarised in the three main features of their distinction - Their continuous deployment, their higher rate of pay and their continual supply of picked replacements. These main features are the reasons for their better defensive equipment, better training and overall tactical superiority to other Achaemenid units.


    Thracian civilization and greek civilization

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    And as I explained to you already, there isn't any plausible evidence to suggest that there is a tribal confusion going on here. The evidence we have follows on quite straight forwardly to imply that the Massagetae and the Saka Haumavarga are one and the same.

    I think its gotten to the point where the evidence is staring you in the face and its going to come down to how much you want to stubbornly ignore it.



    I was fairly accustomed to the idea of having to explain things to you but I really didn't think I would have to spell out the fact that Darius and Cyrus were two different people...

    Congratulations on quite an astounding ability to brazenly construct an image despite reality advising against it.



    So this is what it comes down to. Your 'evidence' is that its not entirely impossible for the migration to happen so because you'd like it to, you think it did.

    My explanation illustrates how Herodotus' term for the Scythians is not refering to the cultural umbrella but rather a specific group of the Scythians. I honestly have no idea what your dispute with this assertion is. So far you haven't made any sort of challenge to it at all.



    Because the Persian literature identifies what appears to be the Massagetae as Scythian. For some strange reason you appear to be asserting that 'Saka' is a tribe rather than a culture. You are making the same mistake as Herodotus in failing to recognise the sub-groups.

    The Persian source does nothing less than support my argument entirely; I am quite baffled by the extent of your ability to ignore very simple steps of logic before wholeheartedly believing fantastic tales.



    I have repeatedly gone over the close relationship between the Iranians and the Scythians but at no point does a relation equate to them actually being identical.



    Darius describes his victories as conquests but thats not always precisely true. Even if it was it only hurts your argument. You're clinging to the idea that because Cyrus was defeated, Darius had to be as well. here's a little reminder, because there are times when I genuinely doubt your ability to understand this premise, but Cyrus and Darius were two different people.

    You are, again, diverting the attention of the argument away from the simple fact that your unbearably ridiculous assertion has practically no supporting evidence and at the very least has far less support than the more reasonable idea that the Massagetae were Scythian.

    The only reason why you are attempting these diversions must well be that even you are aware of exactly how disasterously hilarious your claim really is.



    So let me get this straight. You are actually trying to argue, with a straight face, that because Alexander the great invaded Persia using Thracian troops that he had subdued; that counts as a Thracian military expedition?

    I don't know if i'm actually able to dignify that argument with a response. It desrves to be immortalised as
    the ultimate paragon of wishful thinking.



    The great thing about Greek colonists is that there's actually some evidence for them being Greek. Again, Herodotus is not using the term Scythian as an umbrella term. You just want him to be.



    Evidence is sparse and the illustration of the Chorasamian cavalryman doesn't appear to be online anywhere I can find. But i wouldn't say the Achaemenids fielded cataphracts. They did, however, field horsemen armoured to the degree of what would later be deemed cataphracts. And the context of the question was the Persian developments in horse armour rather than the development of the cataphracts.

















    Ok I wanted this to be slightly seperate because I didn't want it to get lost in a wall of text. Flieger pointed this out already and I feel like an idiot for not remembering it myself but Arrian specifically calls the Massagetae a Scythian tribe. This is an explicit reference from a well trusted ancient author and it only adds to the already mounting pile of evidence to suggest that the Massagetae were Scythian. So far you have yet to provide anything other than desperate, and to be fair quite comedic, wishful thinking.


    Spitamenes, whilst all this was going on, had made his way with a number of fugitives from Sogdiana to that branch of the Scythian people known as the Massagetae. - Arrian, 4. 16.


    Spartan JKM

    The Accession of Darius III

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Terrific work rez. Thanks

    I'll float along with a some material here.

    The realm of the Achaemenid Great King by the time of Darius III, ruling mainly from Susa (modern Shush, western Iran), was a tremendous accomplishment laid down by Cyrus the Great two centuries earlier, which within one generation after the latter's death had been expanded and re-solidified by Darius I (the Great): the states within the vast cultural diversity, permeating the lands from the Aegean-Syr Darya-Egyptian region to the Indus River Valley, were autonomous states liable to a central authority. The sagacious imperial foresight of Cyrus was forwarded by Darius I within few decades following the death of the former: a stable process of the Great King's authority was established by the dawn of the 5th century B.C., in which an ethno-cultural absorption was realized, centered on a sound administrative network of tributary regions - satrapies; they constituted twenty regional divisions among twenty-two regions, following Herodotus' breakdown in The Histories (Book 3.90-97). All the satrapies were subject to Darius I at the culmination of his reign. There was no uniformity regarding Persian rule entailing direct control from the center; each satrapie's legal systems were codified, tribute exacted through appointed officials with established regional treasuries, and an advanced form of communications was established through engineered roads and bridges which streamlining travel, which in turn greatly facilitated commerce. An innovative 'postal service' was realized, most notably exploited viably via the famous Susa-Sardis Royal Road. All this reflected an efficient territorialization which linked the Great King's rule from his center.

    Moreover, a universal currency was introduced, the daric, which standardized the increasingly flowing commerce which permeated the diverse languages and customs of Darius I's growing hegemony. But the satrapies' own distinctive structures were not altered, and they effectively continued their own traditional ways, with some native kings (now effectively 'client kings' of the Great King) still in place despite the appointed satraps. Of course things were bound (not necessarily 'inevitable'?) to go awry at times. But for two centuries the Achaemenid Persian Empire endured with overall superb handling, due very much because of Darius I's (and surely an administrative counsel he had) codifications and standardizations. Cyrus was an ingenious visionary leader in conciliating various peoples, and Darius I, an innovator in far-reaching administration and commerce.

    The Achaemenid sphere of influence was huge by the time of the Ionian revolt (the springboard to the epoch struggle between Persians and Hellenes) in 499 B.C., and the proclivities of 'political inertia and cupidity' (John Cook, The Persian Empire, Pg. 70) cannot be estimated with no room for error, etc. Indeed, the numerous revolts and inability of the Royal Court to limit independent powers within many of the satraps (the 'protectors of the Kingdom's authority') became a recurring problem: the satraps were the provincial leaders of the Great King, and often members of the royal line, such as Artaphernes, were in charge of the internal administration and security of their own satrapie, as well as its responsibilities to the Great King, including the provision of military levies if called upon), on a relatively minimal scale, from this time until the 340s B.C. indeed illustrated the problem of a fragility of the Achaemenid imperial framework, of which Cyrus and Darius I were certainly not unaware; however, all the suppressions and re-conquests of those rebellions reveal a resilience of the Persian overlords, effectuated with an efficient martial and mustering capacity to move and deploy armies over vast swaths of territories. The Empire at the accession of Darius III may have been economically weaker due to the loss of revenue in some satrapies, but is so, it wasn't exorbitantly so, and the realm was probably no less well administered, nor smaller, than two generations prior; all the aspects of immense resources and centralized commerce (internally within each satrap and their tributary allocations to the Great King) was still under strong and able administrative control from a good Great King (the Empire under Darius III 'was irrefutably not moribund', writes Pierre Briant, From Cyrus to Alexander: A History of the Persian Empire, Pg. 812 of the English edition).

    Achaemenid control of Asia Minor had been re-established by 386 B.C., and likewise in Phoenicia and Egypt in the mid-late 340s B.C., and the rising power of Macedon which included incursions east into the regions of Perinthus and Byzantium, was met with Persian aid for defensive measures at the Bosporus Straits, for the time being, which helped stave off that threat. When it was reported to Artaxerxes III of the increasing power of Philip II of Macedon, he reacted to the Macedonian threat with alarm (Diodorus, Bibliotheca Historica, Book 16.75), and Pausanias (the travel writer of the 2nd century A.D.) tells us it was the satrap of Phrygia, Arsites, who sent the mercenary force to aid against Philip's attacks (Description of Greece, Book 1.29.10) on the two major strongholds linking the bridgehead to Asia from Europe.

    The direct line of the Achaemenid Royal House was effectively wiped out in 336 B.C., the result of murderous acts of the powerful minister turned vizier Bagoas. The accession of Codomannus (Darius III was immediately assumed as his regal name upon becoming the Great King), was an appointment with an aim of procuring control of the Court of the Great King by the powerful vizier and his associates, including Mentor, who was along with Bogoas a hero in re-conquering Egypt; but Darius III was a member of the royal stock, hence a legitimate Great King. It seems he had been a very capable military leader, something we know thanks to the accounts of Justin, who epitomized the lost works, to our misfortune, of Gnaeus Pompeius Trogus: Justin tells us, Historiarum Philippicarum Libri XLIV, Book 10.3,
    "…Possession of the throne was given to Ochus [Artaxerxes III], who, dreading a similar conspiracy, filled the palace with the blood and dead bodies of his kinsmen and the nobility, being touched with compassion neither for consanguinity, nor sex, nor age, lest, apparently, he should be thought less wicked than his brothers that had meditated parricide.

    Having thus, as it were, purified his kingdom, he made war upon the Cadusii. In the course of this campaign Codomannus [Darius III], followed by applause from all the Persians, challenged a volunteering enemy soldier in single combat, and, having killed his antagonist, regained the victory for his fellow soldiers, as well as the glory which they had almost lost. For this honorable service Codomannus was made governor of Armenia. Some time after, on the death of Ochus, he was chosen king by the people from regard to his former merits, and, that nothing might be wanting to his royal dignity, honored with the name of Darius. He maintained a long war, with various success, but with great efforts, against Alexander the Great. But being at last overcome by Alexander, and slain by his relations, he terminated his life and the kingdom of the Persians together…"
    This is also in Diodorus (Bibliotheca Historica, Book 17.6, with a slight variance). The last few words there from Justin are not unprejudiced, IMHO, taking them at face value: the organized resistance of Achaemenid authority fell in the face of the formidable Macedonian juggernaut on the huge plain around Gaugamela in October of 331 B.C. (or with a stamp the next year with Alexander's circumvention of the defense mustered at the Persian Gates, then the horrid sack of Persepolis), but Darius III is not personally responsible for the 'termination' of his kingdom, nor his life. He didn't flee cowardly, as many attest: his person was needed for a planned further resistance, hence he was heading to the eastern satrapies once he saw his cause at Gaugamela was hopeless. He was then betrayed, and was overall one of the few not 'incompetent' figures (eg, Gaius Terentius Varro at Cannae, Vercingetorix amid the Gallic revolt, Johann Tserclaes at Breitenfeld) who was unfortunate to lead men in battle against a genius of war. As Great King, Darius III had the capacity to draw on abundant sources of revenue, despite perhaps a weaker economy of his realm than the 'mature' days some six or so generations prior (maybe it wasn't so at all), and he deployed a vast array of military contingents no less ample than the previous generations; he proved he was determined to adapt to changing conditions he identified. His strategy outdid Alexander by flanking the Macedonians and placing his larger force (though not substantially, as even 'revised' accounts claim) astride their communications just before the Battle of Issus (he seems to have been mobilizing a contemporaneous land and sea offensive against Alexander and the Greek League, and Memnon's death may have been a fortunate occurrence for the Greeks). Using elephants at one point, an influence from the eastern subjects of the Indus (though we read nothing of their action, if any took place), was not without tactical credence, and Darius drilled his men with newer weapons more conducive to facing the Macedonians after the lesson of Issus; scythed chariots had worked well before against Hellenic troops (most notably when 700 hoplites, not at the ready, where stymied by 400 Persian horsemen spearheaded by just two scythed chariots, in 395 B.C., at the backdrop of Agesilaus II's incursion in Asia Minor), and when he tried to create initial damage to the enemy with them (clearly not stubbornly banking solely on the chariot charges), he had a huge preponderance in numerical superiority in all arms - and he had even adopted better Greek-style weaponry between the battles fought at Issus and Gaugamela, as Alexander sojourned in Egypt. Moreover, he prudently awaited Alexander to come to his chosen position into the hinterland, as Artaxerxes II did with his younger brother Cyrus within his probable strategy of the famed blood feud of the royal brothers over six decades earlier. Whatever the details of how much Darius III could avail himself of Hellenic mercenary hoplites, or the intricacies behind the kardaces (they were probably lighter than a conventional hoplites, but crack infantrymen of some sort), there is nothing to indicate that Achaemenid levied infantrymen had lost any adeptness since their role in the Battle of Cunaxa in 401 B.C. (even though by the time of Granicus front-line infantry had been replaced by cavalry along a their battle front, perhaps a reflection of the rising supremacy in Macedonian horsemanship, to which they had no heavy foot to stand up to). Darius III was faced with a 'smart bomb' of antiquity to which he could parry no successful answer; Artaxerxes II, with his able subordinates (Tissaphernes was probably the brainchild behind the Cunaxa campaign), was not.

    If we can sustain couple substantial snippets from Xenophon, followed by Plutarch (the Carian historian and physician in the Achaemenid Court, Ctesias, was doubtless used and filtered) the army under the Great King's general Teribazus were well-marshaled and disciplined to a degree which amazed the Hellenic 'observers' when the opposing lines were being drawn up; this reeks of irony, because although we know there certainly was not a figure of 900,000 men under Teribazus (cited by Plutarch), Hellenic authors thought so (perhaps disingenuous, if not wholly), thus a superb discipline was exercised here by a 'marshaled' (ie, the type of army typically mustered by the Achaemenid court) army of the astronomical numbers they themselves often believed was the case - one affecting aspect part and parcel of the growing idealization of Panhellenism, and to the whole perception of martial 'Persian inferiority'. Modern estimates, drawing on logistic realities and the simple logic that Cyrus the Younger would not have marched into the hinterland if he knew his older brother could muster such a colossal force, conclude the armies were of similar size, perhaps neither exceeding 60,000 men (the Royal Army was probably larger). The campaign was a huge domestic wrangle, of which the Greek participation is blown far out of proportion by the Greek polemical tradition to their actual role in the campaign.

    Xenophon, Anabasis, Book 1.8.12-14, at the onset of the action at Cunaxa,

    "...At this moment Cyrus rode along the line, attended only by Pigres, his interpreter, and three or four others, and shouted to Clearchus to lead his army against the enemy's center, for the reason that the King was stationed there; 'and if,' he said, 'we are victorious there, our whole task is accomplished.' Clearchus [the Spartan leader of the 13,600 Greek mercenary force], however, since he saw the compact body at the enemy's center and heard from Cyrus that the King was beyond his left wing (for the King was so superior in numbers that, although occupying the center of his own line, he was beyond Cyrus' left wing), was unwilling to draw the right wing away from the river, for fear that he might be turned on both flanks; and he told Cyrus, in reply, that he was taking care to make everything go well.

    At this critical time the King's army was advancing evenly, while the Greek force, still remaining in the same place, was forming its line from those who were still coming up. And Cyrus, riding along at some distance from his army, was taking a survey, looking in either direction, both at his enemies and his friends..."
    Plutarch, Life of Artaxerxes, Ch. 7 (more pronounced),

    "...As Cyrus proceeded on his march, rumours and reports kept coming to his ears that the king had decided not to give battle at once, and was not desirous of coming to close quarters with him, but rather of waiting in Persia until his forces should assemble there from all parts. For he had run a trench, ten fathoms in width and as many in depth, four hundred furlongs through the plain; and yet he allowed Cyrus to cross this and to come within a short distance of Babylon itself. And it was Teribazus, as we are told, who first plucked up courage to tell the king that he ought not to shun a battle, nor to retire from Media and Babylon, as well as Susa, and hide himself in Persia, when he had a force many times as numerous as that of the enemy, and countless satraps and generals who surpassed Cyrus in wisdom and military skill. The king therefore determined to fight the issue out as soon as possible.

    So, to begin with, by his sudden appearance with an army of 900,000 men in brilliant array, he so terrified and confounded the enemy, who were marching along in loose order and without arms because of their boldness and contempt for the king, that Cyrus could with difficulty bring them into battle array amid much tumult and shouting; and again, by leading his forces up slowly and in silence, he filled the Greeks with amazement at his good discipline, since they had expected in so vast a host random shouting, and leaping, with great confusion and dissipation of their lines. Besides this, he did well to draw up in front of his own line, and over against the Greeks, the mightiest of his scythe-bearing chariots, in order that by the force of their charge they might cut to pieces the ranks of the Greeks before they had come to close quarters..."
    We are to believe, unless the tacit revealings above of the disciplined ability of the Royal Army are incorrect, under adept generals (Tissaphernes, particularly, who was very familiar with Greek arms) no less, that, upon the advance of the men of bronze, the thousands of men on the Great King's left fled like cowards before the Greeks even came within missile range, which would have meant their execution (many were Egyptian soldiers, far from home)? I don't think so. Many of the chariots which arrived at the Greek ranks were riderless, and Tissaphernes swiftly threw Cyrus' right, now sans the Greeks, into defeat. The Persians could win battles more subtly, and used what they had to work in their favor (such grand tactical maneuvering in antiquity reached a pinnacle with the likes of Hannibal). Basically, the Greek force was drawn away from the main battle, thus effectively isolated and strategically neutralized, now far from home. The subsequent great journey 'home to the sea' certainly merits legendary status. But that's another story...

    At the risk of over-simplifying, the underlying reason, why the organization of the great Achaemenid Persian realm of its 'land' and 'peoples' (empire is an anachronistic term), or the khora basileos (royal territories) of the Great King's arkhe (power) in Greek linguistics, crumbled by early 330 B.C. was not due to any significant element in connexion with 'decadence', 'weakness' or mishandled administration. The Empire of the Great King fell because one of the greatest, standing (ie, professional), balanced, adaptable, and overall most scientifically developed armies of warfare for its era, built by one of the most underestimated men of political and military action of any era (specifically from a reflection of surviving sources), Philip II of Macedon, was launched into Asia led by his far more mercurially fiery, but no less ingenious, son; Alexander was one of the most brilliant yet vainglorious (a necessary attribute for what took place from 334-324 B.C.; plenty more 'humble' leaders would have stopped much further west) battlefield commanders of all time. In the Macedonian-led army of conquest, a cohering military base was established for the invading army under a system of logistical application brilliantly created by a master, and applied by a brilliant practitioner. Alexander was determined with the total conquest of the Achaemenid realm, and Darius III and his subalterns, though afflicted with some extremely circumstantial bad luck, simply could find no military answer against this supreme instrument of war designed with all the aspects which make a flexible and disciplined army of conquest so great. The army of conquest (not one mustered to just win battles, as Greeks basically did before Philip II), to reiterate, had a military genius at its helm, arguably the greatest of all time (if that 'title' must be sought). But a strong spirit did not die in the wake of the transfer of power, and the dynastic outgrowths of Parthia and the Sassanids stood strong against the later aggressions of Rome. At Carrhae in 53 B.C., the superiority of the principles of shock, missile power, and logistics by a horse-army was overtly demonstrated by the Parthians against heavy infantrymen superior to anything that came out of Greece (other than perhaps the hypaspistai, but they were not as preponderant as the best Roman legionaries).

    rez (and others who are involved), I'm enjoying your contributions to the 'Persian infantry' thread; I'd like to contribute soon. Heavy heavy crack infantryman of, the Dailamites (or Daylami, who fought at close-quarters, armed with swords, battle-axes, two-pronged javelins, etc., and wore heavy mail) arrived on the warring scene with the Sassanids, most predominantly under the reign of Khosrau (Khosrow) I in the early 6th century A.D. These heavy infantrymen were a compliment to the vaunted Savaran cavalry (Sassanid knights every bit a match for their Byzantine counterparts). The Dailamites (aluh = 'eagle', amu[kh]t = 'taught') hailed from the rugged terrain of northern Persia (modern Gilan and environs). They are 'the only Persian infantry force positively praised by Greco-Roman sources', writes Dr. Kaveh Farrokh (in his superb Shadows in the Desert: Ancient Persia at War, pg. 232). But he doesn't provide the specific sources, let alone their specific comments (which were among Procopius and Agathias, presumably). If the Daylami were indeed descended from the Median Dimilii tribe, the biggest question may be why their capacity to fight as heavy close-quarter infantrymen was never utilized, even marginally, until the c. late 4th century A.D. Mmmm. I wish they received better press. Do you know much about these soldiers? I realize it's far removed from the epoch of the Achaemenids.



    Above left: I found this depiction of a Dailamite heavy infantryman (here, specifically). Right: the Achaemenid dathabam (a file of ten men), which followed the Assyrian tradition of archers shooting behind a shield (spara) wall. The shield-bearer (hence sparabara) fought behind his spara with a six-seven ft. spear and, if need be, a long dagger (the akinaka). He was also the dathapatis, the leader of the dathabam (should he fall and enemy soldiers reach them, the archers defended themselves as best as they could with an akinakes, a short sword not unlike the Greek xiphos); ten dathaba constituted the infantry tactical unit known as a satabam; ten sataba of a hundred men formed the thousand-man regiment called a hazarabam; ten hazaraba, in turn, comprised a baivarabam (the convenient 10,000 'myriad' to the Greeks; the Mongol tümen), hence Turkic in origin, was the field army numbering 10,000 men) of which the most renowned was the Amrtaka (the 'Immortals'), who were always kept up to full strength (traditional). Otherwise, the decimal system was certainly not always maintained at these paper-strengths amid campaigns, a military historical reality for all 'parade-strengths' of every national army's organized units. By the early/mid 4th century B.C., this tactical concept had disappeared.

    Different scholarly hypotheses can often be equally convincing, and the various explanations often reflect the current beliefs and attitudes of the society in which certain archaeologists and historians live and work. It gets complicated, and Territorial expansion by ancient states is influenced by macro-sociological aspects free of the paramount (though basic) influencing agent of environment (ie, waterways and deltas). There is a great variation in the qualitative and quantitative evidence that different ancient cultures have left for modern archaeological scholarship; Egyptian civilization, throughout its staple periods left great monuments, a wealth of artifacts, and a rich literary legacy (albeit not in prose form), while other cultural centers, such as Meroė and Carthage (the horrifically thorough destruction of the latter in 146 B.C. notwithstanding) are hitherto more mysterious, even staying within conventional science (ie, no Lemuria or Atlantis!). The controversy surrounding the interesting Jiroft theory seems to reflect an overview of what can be seen as independent or part of a whole 'culture' with the various city-states. Much of the evidence of life and warfare in antiquity always entails interpretation, perhaps the strongest 'catalyst' of controversy, if I may; fascinating stuff bequeathed by antiquity is often partial and even contradictory, thus scholars always draw thought-provoking but imprecise conclusions.

    Literary and archaeological evidence, and the occasional interjection of circular reasoning (which doesn't always lift the interpretation issue), can often offset each other now and then, and focalized changes can upsurge with newly uncovered data. To each his/her own, though, and many great and differing scholars are a joy to study: passionate disinterest and melancholic yearning both exist among the nostalgic, but that we are availed the balance of more 'balanced' professionals such as Samuel Kramer (Sumer), Ian Shaw (Egypt), Pierre Briant (Achaemenid Persia), Nicholas G. Hammond (Hellas), to name a few, we should consider ourselves quite fortunate. Of course it runs deeper, particularly with ancient Persia (Elamites, Sassanids etc.), and I'm going off on tangents from the issue of Hellas and the Achaemenids for our topic. But I'll never feel bad for thinking so pensively about the indirectly connected aspects of the ancient history of 'Europe' (mainland Greece and Roman eras), the Near East (Asia Minor, Egypt, and Phoenicia, etc.), and 'Asia' (Sumerian and Persian dynasties).

    From my view, the multicultural and social issue of 'let's be fair to the Persians' should not be undertaken for the stroking of political correctness per se, at least for students etc. interested in the grand topic who are not political pundits or lobbyists for historical figures and subjects (ie, those who kiss babies and exhort in a manner influenced by their forensic requirements, etc.). Moreover, I feel, such a feeling shouldn’t be coupled with an overlapping denigration of the traditional historiography laid down by Hellenes, of which the advent lay with Herodotus of Halicarnassus, who, whichever school of thought about him various scholars and aficionados, etc., of this subject decide to advocate, was the first to not only adeptly narrate for us an accurate account (historicity beyond the surface will never be proven, particularly in antiquity, and Herodotus' works are not free from unevenness) of a monumental past event, but to imbue it with what he saw as intent, cause, and effect; he was indeed the Father of History, or at least the architect, putatively for his classic The Histories, the first account of prose work we have which can be valued as a tremendous historical source; The Histories, almost certainly, were to be directed at readers rather than listeners, evidenced by the frequent use of the past tense when referring to Herodotus' own time, thereby adopting the perspective of future absorbers of his work. From the get-go Herodotus clearly assumes the role as an historic abutment of Homer. Reliance is almost solely dependent on Herodotus for the great events of the early 5th century B.C. which decided the fate of the overall political course of the eastern Mediterranean Basin and 'Europe'. Moreover, he furnishes much data about Achaemenid Persia in the decades prior; he was well placed to hear and learn much, coming from the Carian port of Halicarnassus, traveling extensively when his mind was mature and knew what he was looking for. But the backdrop isn't exclusive with Herodotus, as professor John F. Lazenby, one the finest modern scholars dealing with the momentous events of ancient Greece and Republican Rome, lucidly writes on the first page of Ch. 1 of his superb The Defence of Greece 490-479 B.C.,
    "…The Persian Wars without Herodotus would not so much be Hamlet without the prince, as Hamlet without Shakespeare…"
    Food for thought.

    Thanks, James


    Phalanx

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Great thread!
    My apologies Exel. You asked me a very good question on the other thread, which was never acknowledged. Let's take a look:

    The defensive armor of the Foot Companion was relatively sparse, but I am in total agreement with Phoebus that the contention of the phalangites wearing no armor is not credible. Cassius Dio, in describing the Roman emperor Caracalla's obsessive desire to create an authentic Alexandrian phalanx, tells us they wore 'triply strengthened' linen cuirasses (Book 78.7), and Polyaenus tells us they wore greaves (4.2). There is nothing to suggest the phalangite was armed any differently in later years, except the condition of the sarissa's length. Remember, the Macedonian phalanx was drawn from the poorer peasantry, thus it is unlikely they could have afforded the heavier armor. But maybe not, as Macedonian financial (property) requirements for military service were far less than those for most city-states of Greece, allowing Philip II to draw upon huge population reserves. Furthermore, he did provide inducements (ie, money) for advancement to his troops on every level. But the Foot Companion, the role to which one could be elevated if distinguishing himself, needed to be free of any encumbering weight of heavy defensive equipment, as the potential of the sarissa could only be manipulated with both hands. The title of Pezhetairoi was an honor in itself; Philip II's development of this superb fighting force of phalangites, which seemingly originated under him as an elite brigade, certainly required many years. The origins of the Pezhetairoi can be traced to Alexander I (498-454 B.C.), who organized them to keep the nobles in check, but they were never a standing force of men recruited on a national basis until Philip II, when a singular degree of training and discipline was implemented upon an undisciplined but robust peasantry.

    Now, Exel, there are no absolutes to this great subject of antiquity, but I think it is logical that the first rank of the Foot Companions in battle order were the stronger, more tested men, and possessed better endurance than their comrades behind them. Thus they were probably more heavily armored with bronze cuirasses, as the extra weight may not have hindered their movement as much as one who would tire quicker. Arrian mentions the 'lighter-armed' part of the Foot Companions, which suggests there was a heavier part. This would prove extremely useful against missile fire. Moreover, the sarissa itself, longer than anything the enemy could present, offered the primary protection through its length, and further protection against enemy missile fire, though somewhat tenuous if the missile fire was heavy, could be provided by the sarissas of the rear ranks when they held their pikes up in the air at various angles; these would be lines 6-16 of each syntagma (later called a speira), the basic sub-division of the taxi, which contained 256 phalangites.

    The sarissa introduced by Philip II was, not without question, a good 21 ft. long. Later Hellenistic phalanxes would wield one 24 ft. In my opinion, there is no historian of antiquity, or even perhaps of all time, who had a wider background of education, travel, and experience than Polybius. His work, of which sadly we have only five complete books, was conceived on a grand scale. He was not free from bias, but there is absolutely no reason for him to not tell us the accurate dimensions of the sarissa, something he certainly experienced hands-on (no pun intended), in some capacity. In Book 18.29, he clearly tell us the sarissa was 14 cubits before it was lenghtened to 16 cubits (1 cubit=1.5 ft.). It was about 14 lbs. and had to be held about 6 ft. from its end to achieve proper balance, meaning it projected 15 ft. when pointed forwards by its bearer (18 ft. in later times). Including the vertical space occupied by the Foot Companion, there was a 3 ft. distance per rank when they were in close order for battle; the 'locked shields' deployment, in which the frontage was reduced to 1.5 ft, made possible a higher concentration of weapons should the need arise. So, the sarissa extended beyond the file leaders from the fifth rank at a distance of 3 feet when in close order formation, and 9 feet when in 'locked shields' order. If the sarissa was indeed 18 ft., then they were projected forward from the first four ranks, not five; any distance less than 3 ft. beyond the file leaders would not be adequate. In my opinion, the 14 ft. and 16 ft lengths proposed by many seem untenable, as no concrete support is offered by authors etc. who choose this length. Unfortunately, all they often do is pooh-pooh at the ideas of Polybius and his apologists (eg, Connolly).

    As for the potential injuries that would be endured, I doubt the file leaders suffered considerably more than their followers, simply because the phalanx was practically indefensible from the front. The only way havoc could be wrought upon it was from missile fire and penetration, which could only come from the air and its flanks.

    It seems there were 3 taxeis (a taxi was a territorial brigade of 1,536 phalangites) of Foot Companions given the honorary title of Asthetairoi, 'Best Companions', at some point around the Battle of Issus, but the deatils are wanting.

    I believe the hoplite spear was called a doru (there may be other names for it), and was about 7-9 ft. long. Yes, Exel, the hoplite's spear was for thrusting, at least by the time of the Persian invasions. The xyston was the thrusting spear of the Companion cavalryman, and probably was about 12-14 ft. long. Should the situation demand it, the Companion also wielded a doru spear, or at least a conventional one very similar. On the other thread I began, information was presented by Hanny stating that the University of Newcastle possessed examples that reached 4.87 meters. That would be just about 16 ft. long - longer than some claims of the length of the sarissa itself. The xyston was certainly lighter and more pliable than the sarissa, but the bearer effectively rode and fought with it (one hand), therefore I think 16 ft. seems too excessive. Moreover, we should consider the length of the lances that the Prodromoi, or Sarissophoroi (Scouts) were armed with, which was probably a little longer than the xyston. I think it's good to have an open mind about these things.

    You could be correct about the aspis, Locky, but the issue is not incontrovertible. We just don't know; it seems the term hoplon, over time, did not carry an exclusive meaning, and the 'meaning(s)' have possibly been interpreted via modern usage and abusage of language, and purported original meanings can change with time. Perhaps the hopite's shield simply became called a hoplon over time being that the shield was the hoplite's primary tool of war. Maybe hoplon means 'shield' and aspis means the specific type of shield used by the hoplite, like a .357 Magnum is a type of handgun. But maybe it's the other way around. I'll get to that shortly.

    Apparently, the term hoplo was an initial definiton for a tool or instrument. A later meaning was that of a tool of war. Now, this is where professor Paul Cartledge offers some elucidating information, pg. 67 of his terrific The Spartans: The World of the Warrior-Heroes of Ancient Greece,

    "...The hoplite may well have taken his name from the cardinal item of his equipment, the two-handed shield which he wore in an unalterably fixed position on his left arm...The Greek word hopla, which certainly included the shield, was used to mean arms and armor collectively. A panoplia was a full set of hoplite kit..."

    Thus the term hopla is plural for hoplo. I have read that hoplon was a later generic use to include all weapons, but that the early principal meaning was specifically the name for the round buckler, convex, approx. 3 ft in diameter, famous shield of the hoplite, which I think Peter Connolly, a major authority whose works I don't have with me right now, calls the Argive shield (in his great book Greece and Rome at War). Many books on this subject state that the hoplites took their name form their shields called hoplons. conon394 provided something from J.F. Lazenby and David Whitehead in The Classic Quarterly (Vol. 46, No. 1. (1996), pp. 27-33), titled The Myth of the Hoplite's Hoplon. In it they state on the argument,

    "...our preliminary point is that virtually all modern scholars who utter on the subject are content to repeat one another without reference to ancient evidence at all, and (as a result) without awareness of the doubts to which that evidence should properly give rise."

    That's quite a forceful claim, and John Lazenby is one of the best of the Classical scholars. But he does tell us in his contributory essay in the book Warfare in the Ancient World, Pg. 57,

    "...It is even possible that the term used for the new-style soldiers - 'hoplites' (hoplitai) - came from the hoplon, which could mean 'shield', though the normal word for the hoplite shield was aspis."

    Lazenby writes could mean shield; the ancient Greek word Οπλον is claimed to mean 'large shield'. Let's take a look at the translation of Diodorus Book 17.21, when he tells us of Alexander amid battle,

    "...Though he took two blows on the breastplate, one on the helmet, and three on the shield, which he had brought from the temple of Athena, he still did not give in,..."

    In the Loeb Classic Library of Diodorus' work, the ancient text is preserved on the left side of the page, and the word Οπλον is clearly definined as shield. Now, this may have been Alexander's time, but any shield he appropriated from the temple of Athena in Athens, one of many sites he was victorious over the traditional Greek hoplites, would certainly have been a splendid Greek hoplite's shield.

    A Greek student on Wikipedia, debating on behalf that hoplon is the correct word for shield, translates the same passage as,

    "...duo men ekhon eis ton thoraka plegas, mien de eis to kranos, treis d' eis to kathairethen hoplon ek tou neo tes Athenas homos ouk enedidou,..."

    Between the Greek student and the ancient text from Loeb, hoplon and Οπλον carry the identical meaning. But the only conclusion this offers is that hoplon/Οπλον means 'shield'.

    The exact inscription of this word can be found here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspis

    Again, Greek soldiers took their names from their shields. A Peltastai is derived from the Pelte shield. Hypaspistai means 'Shield-Bearer'. The term Argyraspides were the bearers of the 'Silver-Shields. The term othismos aspidon, which has been correctly mentioned by some on this thread as being the standard combat technique of the hoplite phalanx, apparently means 'Shield-Shoving', or 'Shield-Pushing'. It can be noticed that the denominations of aspis/aspid within these terms have a meaning that is simply 'shield', in a generic sense.

    I still have one of my first books on Ancient Greece, one which has bold type and basically for beginners. It is from one Suzanne Strauss Art, titled Early Times: The Story of Ancient Greece. She tells us on Pg. 92, within the chapter dealing with the hoplite,

    "...He carried a heavy round wooden shield called a hoplon: this explains why Greek footsoldiers were called hoplites..."

    I don't completely agree. I think it should be kept in mind that the instrument of decision for the Macedonian army was the coordination of the army in its entirety, thus one major goal of the Foot Companions was not to be broken and contain the enemy until the Companions delivered the killing blow. They achieved this at Issus against the mercenaries, though the Greek mercenaries under Thymondas were able to withdraw in relatively good order because they had pressed Parmenio's four taxeis very hard, meaning Craterus, Meleager, Ptolemy's men (Ptolemy fell in battle), and Amyntas could not conduct a pursuit after regaining their solid order, which was achieved because of the arrival of Alexander, the hypaspists and the other two taxeis of Foot Companions from their right side. But the other contingent of Greek mercenaries, under a different Amyntas, were thoroughly routed under an archetype of the 'Hammer-and-Anvil'.

    Indeed, what happened here at Issus was the most pressing predicament the Pezhetairoi had ever experienced; as Alexander and his Companions surged forward, the two taxeis under his command were dragged towards the enemy at a swifter pace than the other four under Parmenio, who faced the steep banks of the Pinaurus. The line of the phalanx split - the major opportunity that any force facing the Macedonian or Greek phalanx should exploit. This is where the flanks, and then rear, would became exposed. The Greek mercenaries did smartly exploit this opportunity, but could not overwhelm the Foot Companions in time. This never would have happened amid a conventional, isolated clash between the two forces. Other than perhaps hand-to-hand fighting (the sarissa was not intended to be used in isolation), any phalanx before and after was inferior in every facet to Philip II's creation. The Macedonian phalanx was faster and supported by superbly drilled auxiliary units (the Hypaspists), which were even lighter. The battallions and sub-divisions created by Philip II allowed for a smooth command structure, and he reduced the amount of servants for the infantry to one servant for every ten men; a file in Alexander's army was known as a dekas. Conjecturally, the nobility of the heavy cavalrymen were allowed one servant each, thus the invasion of Asia in 334 B.C. had an amount not much exceeding 7,000 non-combatants (I believe someone questioned this on the other thread). But the importance of this is that it produced a far greater operating range for the army.

    In the spring of 336 B.C., a force of 10,000 Macedonians and Greek mercenaries under Parmenio was ferried over the Hellespont with the objective of liberating the Greek states along the shore of Asia Minor, as well as sieze the valuable grain-growing regions.

    As we know, Philip II's war machine was based around the tactical need for effective mobility, an asset the phalanx alone did not possess. His concept of training, combined arms, logistics, and battlefield mobility reflects what the great Epaminondas was beginning to utilize. But Epaminondas still focused on the hoplite formation to be decisive, deepening its ranks to effect a major battering-ram more so than across-the-board pushing. Philip II limited his phalanx to a defensive role, with the cavalry being the striking force. The object of the Foot Companions was to hold the enemy by a threat of or actual clinch, while the cavalry maneuvered for the decisive blow. The Pezhetairoi thus became the tactical support for cavalry action. This was achieved at Issus and at Gaugamela, the latter a display of possibly the greatest example of tactical penetration by shock in military history. It was possible because Alexander's mobility was generated with his Companions (Hetairoi) due to the security afforded by the cover of not only his flying right column, but of the Foot Companions on his left. However, as at Issus, he created a gap in his own front by advancing rapidly to the right before surging forward. If he would have fought many more battles, he would have had to be careful, particularly if he had gone up against a superb general, something that finally caught up with Hannibal.

    Basically, the culture of hoplite warfare was not very offensive in nature. As landowners and farmers they were primarily concerned with defending their acquired lands. Their style of war was not meant to entail rapid and destructive offensives to capture vast swaths of enemy territory. But he Peloponnesian War, a protracted and total affair, ushered in a range of forces and resources not before seen amongst the Greek city-states. Battle would reach into lands more suitable to lighter and faster types of troops. This is where the innovative Iphicrates came into play, leading lightly armed Peltasts. They specialized in harassment tactics, conducting hit-and-run raids against their enemies' troops and resources. These methods were a far cry from the traditional clashes of the hoplites on open ground. It was amid this environment which the rising power of Macedon would rise.

    Thanks, Spartan JKM :original:


    Now if you took a look at those posts (especially Spartan's) you're left simply being awed at the sheer knowledge of the individuals. These are the kind of posts where you know serious research and effort has been made in to putting them together. Quotations. Citations. They're even incredible just to look at, let alone read. It's posts like that which have set the bar so high. Extremely high. The examples i've given here are actually exceptional. Concrete posts backed up by an array of evidence ranging from written sources to archaeology and with a logical train of thought which has been easily justified.

    Like I said, I was tossing around the idea of whether to post this or not and I think it's better that I try to express the opposing viewpoint to this nomination since I noticed how similar it seemed to be to Rome's, and he failed. Jealousy? Hardly. I don't expect to be nominated for Phalera any time soon, and even if I was I would refuse. The Curia right now is a medal cabinet, and I think most people have accepted that, but I think even in the distribution of medals we should analyse each nomination as critically as a proposal that would modify the Constitution. So just to reiterate, I have to express my opposition.

  18. #18
    jimkatalanos's Avatar 浪人
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Nationless
    Posts
    14,483

    Default Re: [Medal] Jom for Phalera

    Bad Legio, you didn't propose Lysimachus for phalera.

    Lysimachus this is just a silly curia award, good job on wasting your time writing the above post.
    Ερωτηθεὶς τι ποτ' αυτώ περιγέγονεν εκ φιλοσοφίας, έφη, «Το ανεπιτάκτως ποιείν ά τινες διά τον από των νόμων φόβον ποιούσιν.


    Under the professional guidance of TWC's Zone expert Garbarsardar
    Patron of Noble Savage, Dimitri_Harkov, MasterOfThessus, The Fuzz, aja5191, Furin, neoptolemos, AnthoniusII, Legio, agisilaos, Romanos IV, Taiji, Leo, Jom, Jarlaxe






    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The universe is change; our life is what our thoughts make it.


    The soul becomes dyed with the color of its thoughts.


    If you desire to be good, begin by believing that you are wicked.


    We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.


    οὕτως ἀταλαίπωρος τοῖς πολλοῖς ἡ ζήτησις τῆς ἀληθείας, καὶ ἐπὶ τὰ ἑτοῖμα μᾶλλον τρέπονται.


    Questions are not necessarily there to be answered, but possibly there to inspire thinking.


    Nullius addictus iurare in verba magistri, - quo me cumque rapit tempestas, deferor hospes.


    If mind is common to us, then also the reason, whereby we are reasoning beings, is common. If this be so, then also the reason which enjoins what is to be done or left undone is common. If this be so, law also is common; if this be so, we are citizens; if this be so, we are partakers in one constitution; if this be so, the Universe is a kind of commonwealth.


    Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.


    There is no chaos in the world, only complexity.
    Knowledge of the complex is wisdom.
    From wisdom of the world comes wisdom of the self.
    Mastery of the self is mastery of the world. Loss of the self is the source of suffering.
    Suffering is a choice, and we can refuse it.
    It is in our power to create the world, or destroy it.


    Homo homini lupus est. Homo sacra res homini.


    When deeds speak, words are nothing.


    Human history is a litany of blood, shed over different ideals of rulership and afterlife


    Sol lucet omnibus.


    You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.


    Neither should a ship rely on one small anchor, nor should life rest on a single hope.


    The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.


    Ο Νούς νοεί τον εαυτόν του ως κράτιστος και η νόησή του είναι της νοήσεως νόησις.


    'Nothing is true, everything is permitted.' is merely an observation of the nature of reality. To say that nothing is true, is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say that everything is permitted, is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic.

  19. #19
    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
    Patrician Tribune Citizen Magistrate Administrator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    20,608

    Default Re: [Medal] Jom for Phalera

    Quote Originally Posted by jimkatalanos View Post
    Bad Legio, you didn't propose Lysimachus for phalera.

    Lysimachus this is just a silly curia award, good job on wasting your time writing the above post.
    I am sorry but this type of attitude does not serve neither the nominee nor the discussion. If you indeed believe that the Curia, the processes involved and the awards are silly you can simply refrain from posting one liners in response to someone's effort to substantiate this discussion.

  20. #20
    jimkatalanos's Avatar 浪人
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Nationless
    Posts
    14,483

    Default Re: [Medal] Jom for Phalera

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar View Post
    I am sorry but this type of attitude does not serve neither the nominee nor the discussion. If you indeed believe that the Curia, the processes involved and the awards are silly you can simply refrain from posting one liners in response to someone's effort to substantiate this discussion.
    Sorry Garb, won't happen again I promise.
    Ερωτηθεὶς τι ποτ' αυτώ περιγέγονεν εκ φιλοσοφίας, έφη, «Το ανεπιτάκτως ποιείν ά τινες διά τον από των νόμων φόβον ποιούσιν.


    Under the professional guidance of TWC's Zone expert Garbarsardar
    Patron of Noble Savage, Dimitri_Harkov, MasterOfThessus, The Fuzz, aja5191, Furin, neoptolemos, AnthoniusII, Legio, agisilaos, Romanos IV, Taiji, Leo, Jom, Jarlaxe






    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The universe is change; our life is what our thoughts make it.


    The soul becomes dyed with the color of its thoughts.


    If you desire to be good, begin by believing that you are wicked.


    We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.


    οὕτως ἀταλαίπωρος τοῖς πολλοῖς ἡ ζήτησις τῆς ἀληθείας, καὶ ἐπὶ τὰ ἑτοῖμα μᾶλλον τρέπονται.


    Questions are not necessarily there to be answered, but possibly there to inspire thinking.


    Nullius addictus iurare in verba magistri, - quo me cumque rapit tempestas, deferor hospes.


    If mind is common to us, then also the reason, whereby we are reasoning beings, is common. If this be so, then also the reason which enjoins what is to be done or left undone is common. If this be so, law also is common; if this be so, we are citizens; if this be so, we are partakers in one constitution; if this be so, the Universe is a kind of commonwealth.


    Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.


    There is no chaos in the world, only complexity.
    Knowledge of the complex is wisdom.
    From wisdom of the world comes wisdom of the self.
    Mastery of the self is mastery of the world. Loss of the self is the source of suffering.
    Suffering is a choice, and we can refuse it.
    It is in our power to create the world, or destroy it.


    Homo homini lupus est. Homo sacra res homini.


    When deeds speak, words are nothing.


    Human history is a litany of blood, shed over different ideals of rulership and afterlife


    Sol lucet omnibus.


    You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.


    Neither should a ship rely on one small anchor, nor should life rest on a single hope.


    The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.


    Ο Νούς νοεί τον εαυτόν του ως κράτιστος και η νόησή του είναι της νοήσεως νόησις.


    'Nothing is true, everything is permitted.' is merely an observation of the nature of reality. To say that nothing is true, is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say that everything is permitted, is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •