Question to Israelis regarding haredim (ultra-orthodox Jews)

[Randarkmaan]

Being stuck in Jerusalem for over a week longer than planned earlier this year (thank you Iceland!), and living very close to the old city, one thing that does not fail to catch your eye are the many haredim (again ultra-orthodox Jews) wandering about. I learned (both then and later) that they are a rather unusual group in Israel, one of the primary reasons being Israel's repeated failure to integrate them into mainstream society, and their rejection of Zionism (at least the Ashkenazi haredim, I think the Sephardi haredi party just turned zionist, no?). I have also heard that they live in poverty and produce very little (men study the Torah and women raise kids) are dependent on state subsidies and have a lot of kids (A LOT). I also heard later that because of such high birth rates they make up (along with Palestinians) a very substantial part of Israeli schoolchildren nowadays.

So basically my what I'm wondering is for any Israelis on the boards if they could tell me what truth there is to these things that I heard. Also if you know anything of how they are viewed in Israel, and if you have any views yourself. You may feel free to answer questions I did not pose as well, if that's what you want.

If this does not belong in the mudpit, then the powers that be may move it as they please.

[jo the greek]

hmm you should have posted

Israel the nation of the devil

your question is very sophisticated


But pls i want also to learn

And are those fellow believe that are the sacred nation ?


it seems do not like Christians ?

[ash874]

the haredim split into several groups and not just ashkenazi and sephardi
some are lost
they follow a rabbi whos every word for them is law
they are the hassidim
and some are very easy to get along with
litaim chabad and others
israelis are not all aware of the differences between them
some do and some dont
but obviously not all groups shun work
they are very crafty buisness man for instance

but what is most important about them is that they are a by and large defenseless pacifist group

[Orko]

1. They avoid public exposure, that they do.
2. They have a lot of children, that they do.
3. The men usually study Judaica(not just the Torah) all day long in a yeshiva, and get government subsidies for that.
4. The women marry very young(almost as soon as it is legally allowed in Israel).
5. They are very unified as a group, to the point when they start riots if a member of their community is arrested or some thing of the sort.
6. They are extremely solitary compared to the rest of Israeli society.
7. They are rather poor(as they usually depend upon government subsidies as their source of income, and they also have many mouths to feed because of the high birth rate).

[♔Goodguy1066♔]

Being stuck in Jerusalem for over a week longer than planned earlier this year (thank you Iceland!), and living very close to the old city, one thing that does not fail to catch your eye are the many haredim (again ultra-orthodox Jews) wandering about. I learned (both then and later) that they are a rather unusual group in Israel, one of the primary reasons being Israel's repeated failure to integrate them into mainstream society, and their rejection of Zionism (at least the Ashkenazi haredim, I think the Sephardi haredi party just turned zionist, no?). I have also heard that they live in poverty and produce very little (men study the Torah and women raise kids) are dependent on state subsidies and have a lot of kids (A LOT). I also heard later that because of such high birth rates they make up (along with Palestinians) a very substantial part of Israeli schoolchildren nowadays.

So basically my what I'm wondering is for any Israelis on the boards if they could tell me what truth there is to these things that I heard. Also if you know anything of how they are viewed in Israel, and if you have any views yourself. You may feel free to answer questions I did not pose as well, if that's what you want.

If this does not belong in the mudpit, then the powers that be may move it as they please.

The Haredim are... a problem. At a personal level, they are jolly good blokes most of them. But on a statistical level, they are pretty much parasites that only take and give nothing back to their country or people. I hate saying it, since that is what the Nazis said of all Jews during the '30s, so I would like to really stress that not all of them are like that. These are the main problems I have with them:
A) They do not serve in the army
B) They feel no love towards their country
C) The same country that they hate so much gives them a huge amount of money to support their huge family, since they don't work at all and only study religion
D) They are taking over our daily lives, so that slowly all public transport will not work on the Sabbath and it will be like a Jewish Iran
E) They don't teach their children anything worthwhile in school, only Torah Talmud and Kabbalah
F) They're largely racists
G) They are a huge obstacle to the peace process

Also, the thing which annoys me most it that they believe that they must study the Torah so that the Messiah will come, but before the state was paying them, back when they were in Europe, they actually had to work for their living and studied in their spare time! And the secular majority can do nothing about it because of our stupid parliamentary democracy, a system that simply doesn't work in such a small and partitioned country. If Bibi Natenyahu would decide that he wants to force Haredic children to study science and evoloution, the Haredic parties would simply threaten to secede from the fragile coalition, thus putting an end to the whole administration; then the PM would go back to his office with his head hung and go write another cheque to his Haredic overlords...

[Claudius Gothicus]

The Haredim are... a problem. At a personal level, they are jolly good blokes most of them. But on a statistical level, they are pretty much parasites that only take and give nothing back to their country or people. I hate saying it, since that is what the Nazis said of all Jews during the '30s, so I would like to really stress that not all of them are like that. These are the main problems I have with them:
A) They do not serve in the army
B) They feel no love towards their country
C) The same country that they hate so much gives them a huge amount of money to support their huge family, since they don't work at all and only study religion
D) They are taking over our daily lives, so that slowly all public transport will not work on the Sabbath and it will be like a Jewish Iran
E) They don't teach their children anything worthwhile in school, only Torah Talmud and Kabbalah
F) They're largely racists
G) They are a huge obstacle to the peace process

Explain me please how the Israeli Government(a largely secular one as I'm informed) hasn't gotten rid of these ''collective s''(yes, I mean that as in a collective group not in the sense that every individual is an ) through deportation, incarceration or even more simple and harmless not subsiding them?

[ash874]

Explain me please how the Israeli Government(a largely secular one as I'm informed) hasn't gotten rid of these ''collective s''(yes, I mean that as in a collective group not in the sense that every individual is an ) through deportation, incarceration or even more simple and harmless not subsiding them?

israelis are religeous people by and large
no israeli has the right to deport another unless that other is a traitor to the nation
incarceration is out of the question since they are non violent and helpless
not subsidising is what will happen eventually
but gradually
we dont want their ing kids to starve

[Tiberios]

we dont want their ing kids to starve

Well if they refuse to work then that is their problem. These people shouldn't be subsidized and if they won't work, then that's their problem.

[ash874]

Well if they refuse to work then that is their problem. These people shouldn't be subsidized and if they won't work, then that's their problem.

i was about to unleash a your way but than i saw you are danish
so i will calmly answer that the kids are our brethren and should not starve because their parents got brainwashed

[Claudius Gothicus]

israelis are religeous people by and large

True, but Israelis are also patriotic and rational, they realize that being such a small and threatened country they need every citizen to contribute to the continued existence of their society.

no israeli has the right to deport another unless that other is a traitor to the nation

Well, they behavior is kinda like being passive traitors, but yeah it was an exaggeration

incarceration is out of the question since they are non violent and helpless

But then they riot over punishments by the central State, ain't that violent?

not subsidizing is what will happen eventually
but gradually
we dont want their ing kids to starve

This is the only realistic and viable solution... cutting on subsidies. Not in just one day, but more like issuing a Law that says ''in 2 years from now on all the subsidies to the ultra orthodox will be cut''. That gives em enough time to get some jobs and the ones who don't well... they'll be absorbed by the regular unemployment system I guess.

[ash874]

True, but Israelis are also patriotic and rational, they realize that being such a small and threatened country they need every citizen to contribute to the continued existence of their society.

Well, they behavior is kinda like being passive traitors, but yeah it was an exaggeration

But then they riot over punishments by the central State, ain't that violent?

as violent as a riot by otistic people

This is the only realistic and viable solution... cutting on subsidies. Not in just one day, but more like issuing a Law that says ''in 2 years from now on all the subsidies to the ultra orthodox will be cut''. That gives em enough time to get some jobs and the ones who don't well... they'll be absorbed by the regular unemployment system I guess.

thats what we are trying to do pretty much
but they fight it using their power
they are 15% of the nation and thus have 15% of our congress in their hands

[eran]

I hate them.
They are parasites, and in every day that pass there are more and more of them.
They are more worse than terrorists. They are an enemy that lives inside you!

[♔Goodguy1066♔]

Explain me please how the Israeli Government(a largely secular one as I'm informed) hasn't gotten rid of these ''collective s''(yes, I mean that as in a collective group not in the sense that every individual is an ) through deportation, incarceration or even more simple and harmless not subsiding them?

Because parliamentary democracy doesn't work in a country like Israel. We have never ever had a non-hung-parliament, our most unified government was three parties and our current one is made up of 6 parties, a total of 74 seats (61 being the minimum for an administration) with 19 of the seats belonging to the three religious parties - and this is supposed to be a relatively stable administration! And that's why if his Bibiness even suggests to stop subsidising the Haredim, he will automatically lose 19 seats and his government will fall, and the same went for every government this country ever had. We need a reform in the governing system, lest we become the victims of tyrranical democracy where the minority rule the majority...

[The Noble Lord]

The Haredim are... a problem.

What is the difference between Haredim and Hassidim??

[♔Goodguy1066♔]

What is the difference between Haredim and Hassidim??

The Hassidim are a branch of Haredim which were formed in the pale of Eastern Europe (Ashkenaz). The Haredim are simply ultra-orthodox Jews, be they from Yemen or Spain or Poland.

Butbutbut the orthodox jews can avoid military service when they study the torah and there is a law that food most be labeled if they are kosjer or not. That is hardly secular. Still it is not nearly as theocratic as its surrounding countries (dunno about Libanon), but really secular? No.

We're not fully secular, but we're secular enough in a way that religion doesn't interfere in our day-to-day lives. That plays a worrying part in the future of our country though, they keep to themselves more than ever and their cult (there's no other word for it) grows larger in numbers every day, so while they don't force religion over us they will one day replace us as the majority and then we will be a truly religious state.

[Claudius Gothicus]

We're not fully secular, but we're secular enough in a way that religion doesn't interfere in our day-to-day lives. That plays a worrying part in the future of our country though, they keep to themselves more than ever and their cult (there's no other word for it) grows larger in numbers every day, so while they don't force religion over us they will one day replace us as the majority and then we will be a truly religious state.

Wow you Jews are cannibalistic anti-Semites too ?

Nah really, just as GoodGuy say double standards are not the same as Religious Theocracy.

And no government is a pure type either. Those classifications are called Pure Ideal Types and are not meant to empirically describe reality on a extent basis only make broad interpretations from where we can start our process of knowledge.

[Treize]

We're not fully secular, but we're secular enough in a way that religion doesn't interfere in our day-to-day lives. That plays a worrying part in the future of our country though, they keep to themselves more than ever and their cult (there's no other word for it) grows larger in numbers every day, so while they don't force religion over us they will one day replace us as the majority and then we will be a truly religious state.

I know everything about sects.
Where I live we have calvinists who believe that god banned the television, pants for women and non-religious music.
And guess what, I work for them...

[NotYetRegistered]

The Haredim are... a problem. At a personal level, they are jolly good blokes most of them. But on a statistical level, they are pretty much parasites that only take and give nothing back to their country or people.

As for calling them parasites, that's the exact thing they said about us in Nazi Germany and continue to say about us in Iran. Don't stoop down to that level of racism...

?

[boofhead]

A bunch of dole-bludgers by the sounds of things. Maybe I'll invent a religious denomination that demands that my fellow citizens feed me. Then I can sunbathe and read books all day.

[Orko]

AND THEY DON'T USE DEODORANT! They were 6 layers of thick, long clothing in august, and just don't see the need to use this goy-ish thing called "deodorant" or "shower".