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  1. #1
    Civitate
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    Default Neo Conservatives losing influence in the White House?


    A New View at Defense
    Rumsfeld's No. 2 heralds a more pragmatic approach.

    By Daniel Klaidman, John Barry and Michael Hirsh
    Newsweek

    Dec. 12, 2005 issue - Shortly after the start of President George W. Bush's second term, a high-level "deputies" meeting was called at the White House. Issue one on the agenda was how to improve the administration's message in the face of allegations that the U.S. government condoned torture. Philip Zelikow, the powerful counselor to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, spoke up first. He argued firmly that the problem was not how the policy of interrogation and detention was presented to the world; it was the policy itself. No one was surprised by that stance: State, after all, is the diplomatic caretaker of America's global image, and for some time Rice has been quietly campaigning to dial back detention policies.

    But what happened next shocked everyone. Gordon England, the Pentagon No. 2 recently installed as Paul Wolfowitz's successor, enthusiastically endorsed Zelikow's views. The critical question from England's perspective was: are we better or worse off using these methods? Worse, he concluded. "He was utterly pragmatic," recalls one senior official who declined to be named because the deliberations were private.

    Pragmatism at high levels? State and Defense working hand in hand? This doesn't sound like the Bush administration of popular imagination. In fact, the ascent of England as Donald Rumsfeld's deputy Defense secretary is the best evidence yet that a new array of career professionals—the post-neocons, if you will—has emerged as a powerful force in Bush's second term. They have, for the most part, displaced the first-term "cabal" of political true believers, as Colin Powell's former chief of staff, Lawrence Wilkerson, called the group around Rumsfeld and Vice President Dick Cheney. While Rumsfeld and Cheney remain, their sway in White House deliberations is not what it once was.

    England is a striking example of how the administration has corrected what critics saw as an excess of "vision"—and shortage of management—at the Pentagon. The media had mistakenly portrayed former CEO Rumsfeld as a hands-on guy. But he was preoccupied running two wars, while he spent much of his time pursuing expansive visions of military transformation. Meanwhile, his deputy, Wolfowitz, was preoccupied with an equally grand dream of transforming the Middle East.

    Yet the Pentagon is a vast establishment of 3 million personnel. With its top men casting their eyes to the horizon, too few people were watching the ground. The results were damaging: many of the scandals over detainee treatment and interrogation can be traced to failures of top management.

    Rumsfeld, his associates say, was aware of this managerial deficit and regularly reached down to the service chiefs to run things. And he relied on no one more than England, a self-effacing secretary of the Navy and defense-industry executive. Now England is resolving the swirling in-house debates over the Quadrennial Defense Review—the Pentagon's strategic rethink of the kinds of threats America faces. And on detention and interrogation policy, England's qualms at that early 2005 White House meeting reverberated throughout the government, encouraging reformers. That eventually led to compromise discussions with Capitol Hill that have left Cheney's hard-line chief of staff, David Addington, somewhat isolated inside the administration.

    Raised in a blue-collar Baltimore row house, England is widely admired for both his drive and humility. Democratic Sen. Carl Levin called him a "Mr. Fix-It" who seems to be without enemies in Washington. That's not entirely true: England is still officially the "acting" deputy Defense secretary because a Republican senator, Olympia Snowe, has held up his confirmation over a shipbuilding dispute. But he and his can-do crowd are certainly setting a new tone in Bush's second term.

    © 2005 Newsweek, Inc.
    Source

    If this turns out to be true then this is good news for both America and the rest of the world. IMO the neo cons have damaged America's reputation and have wasted alot of resources but have accomplished nearly nothing. Finally we can start dealing with the issues at hand instead of just pussyfooting around.

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  2. #2
    John I Tzimisces's Avatar Get born again.
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    Finally, Bush has someone whispering in his ear that isn't a hipocritical neo-con! If only that were the case in term one...who knows, maybe the rest of the world wouldn't hate his guts...

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    GeneralLee's Avatar Senator
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    I wouldn't bank on that. He was probably appointed to appease the critics of the white house not becuase his political views are going to be embraced by the rest of the cabinent. I dont doubt the president will respect the man but I beleive Rumy and Cheney still exert an inordinate amount of control over the presidency.
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    Hub'ite's Avatar Primicerius
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    Just hope that Liberals don't get into office and ruin our country.

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    How can the liberals ruin our country anymore than Bush has in the past 5 years? If a ldemocrat comes to power and DOES do more damage than Bush, I'll eat my words, but until then....shove it republican dickryders! (joke)

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hub'ite
    Just hope that Liberals don't get into office and ruin our country.

    Interesting, all the people I know (including friends) who
    are democrats usually are average or below average in intelligence, the
    only exception to this are government workers and university
    professors. A friend of mine (a democrat) who worked the polls
    on election day couldn't tell me the difference between a liberal and a
    conservative, and what their core beliefs are. (Amercian political system)
    Same dude was happy that the PA. governor was going to allow the rapists and
    child molesters vote (before their convictions), but try to block the military votes
    on write down ballots for those deployed overseas; criminals vote
    95% democrat while the U.S. military votes highly republican.
    Democrats are perceived as lax on crime.

  7. #7

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    Who cares? Both parties are practically identical, it doesn't matter who's in power.

  8. #8

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    Ok i disagree, the democrats are not identical to the republicans. Although now the definition of "democrat" is a bit hazier and murkier, It'll be a cold day in hell before a deomcrat spearheads pro-christian anti-gay legislation, for instance. Thats a good example, no?

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    John I Tzimisces's Avatar Get born again.
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    While America's political spectrum is by far narrower than, well, the rest of the world's, both parties have pretty big differences. The democrats want a bigger government, making moves that look suspiciously socialist...or will be. The Republicans strive for a smaller government, less taxes is just one example of this. It is more of a states rights thing, so that most issues can be resolved on a state by state basis rather than on a federal one. Which is why I support the Republicans, fewer politicians messing up our lives

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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Quote Originally Posted by eXc|Imperator
    Which is why I support the Republicans, fewer politicians messing up our lives
    what you should have said was less federal politicians messing up our lives, there are still plenty of state officials to do that for us.

    Neocons are a disgrace to the true conservative ideal (of course this is from the hands of a moderate-leftie). But from what I understand from the conservatives of this site, is that they want less government control. Well it seems that the neocons are doing the complete opposite. Constitutional amdement to ban gay marriage, Patriot act, etc etc. I applaud those in Congress (even the republicans) for shooting down the renewal of the patriot act. Im getting off topic here. In short I hope I never see another neocon in office until the day I die (but im not going to hold my breath)

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    Last edited by Last Roman; December 31, 2005 at 08:58 PM.
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    Hub'ite's Avatar Primicerius
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    LOL I loved this one. Good find.

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    Darth Wong's Avatar Pit Bull
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    Quote Originally Posted by eXc|Imperator
    While America's political spectrum is by far narrower than, well, the rest of the world's, both parties have pretty big differences. The democrats want a bigger government, making moves that look suspiciously socialist...or will be. The Republicans strive for a smaller government, less taxes is just one example of this. It is more of a states rights thing, so that most issues can be resolved on a state by state basis rather than on a federal one. Which is why I support the Republicans, fewer politicians messing up our lives
    The Republicans say they support smaller government, but their record of spending increases is sharply at odds with this widely promoted image.

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    Kino's Avatar Citizen
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    Deleted by user.
    Last edited by Kino; January 17, 2007 at 04:38 AM.
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  14. #14
    Hub'ite's Avatar Primicerius
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    Here's to you RZZA

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  16. #16
    John I Tzimisces's Avatar Get born again.
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    Ha, too bad mainstream republicans don't really like bush that much nowadays. He's more of a democrat than he ever was a republican.

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    Eric's Avatar Praepositus
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    This may be a stupid question but: How can you be Neo-Conservative? The Conservative political movement is all about continuity and maintaining the status-quo. Or, atleast it is here in Canada. Neo means New, you can't be a new Conservative because Conservatives are all about maintaining the old ways.
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  18. #18
    John I Tzimisces's Avatar Get born again.
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    Neo-conservative = Ultra Conservative = Not really conservative at all.

  19. #19
    Civitate
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    Neo conservative is actually a label for a particular political group/ ideology, it does not literally mean a New Conservative. Here is some more info on this group:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIki, New Conservatism in the United States
    refers to the political movement, ideology, and public policy goals of "new conservatives" in the United States, who are mainly characterized by their relatively interventionist and hawkish views on foreign policy, and their lack of support for the "small government" principles and restrictions on social spending, when compared with other American conservatives such as traditional or paleoconservatives.

    The prefix "neo" can denote that many of the movement's founders, originally liberals, Democrats or from socialist backgrounds, were new to conservatism, but can also refer to the comparatively recent emergence of this "new wave" of conservative thought, which coalesced in the early 1970s from a variety of intellectual roots in the decades following World War II. It also serves to distinguish the ideology from the viewpoints of "old" or traditional American conservatism.

    Modern neoconservatism is associated with periodicals such as Commentary and The Weekly Standard and some of the foreign policy initiatives of think tanks such as the American Enterprise Institute (AEI) and the Project for the New American Century (PNAC). Neoconservative journalists, pundits, policy analysts, and politicians, often dubbed "neocons" by supporters and critics alike, have been credited with (or blamed for) their influence on U.S. foreign policy, especially under the administrations of Ronald Reagan (1981-1989) and George W. Bush (2001-present), and are particularly noted for their association with and support for the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.
    It is interesting to note that both Rumsfield and Wolfwitz belong to the "Project for the New American Century", a a neo conservative think tank whose other members include:

    John R. Bolton - U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations
    Richard Armitage - U.S. Deputy Secretary of State
    Bruce Jackson - President of the U.S. Committee on NATO

    And was founded by Dick Cheney U.S vice president. The core beliefs of the PFTNAC are as follows:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki, Project for the new American century
    The PNAC website [2] states the group's "fundamental propositions", which are

    * "American leadership is good both for America and for the world"
    * "such leadership requires military strength, diplomatic energy and commitment to moral principle"
    * "too few political leaders today are making the case for global leadership."

    The PNAC also made a statement of principles at their 1997 inception.

    As the 20th century draws to a close, the United States stands as the world's pre-eminent power. Having led the West to victory in the Cold War, America faces an opportunity and a challenge: Does the United States have the vision to build upon the achievements of past decades? Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests?

    The PNAC advocates "a policy of military strength and moral clarity" which includes:

    * A significant increase of U.S. defense spending.
    * Strengthening ties with the U.S.'s allies and to challenge regimes hostile to U.S. interests and values.
    * Promoting the cause of political and economic freedom outside the U.S.
    * Preserving and extending an international order friendly to U.S. security, prosperity, and principles.
    "In bourgeois society capital is independent and has individuality, while the living person is dependent and has no individuality." - Karl Marx on Capitalism
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  20. #20
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Democrats are lax on crime=Democrats are below average intelligence? Hmm...
    Anyway, I couldn't tell you the difference between an American Liberal and an American Conservative though I could tell you the difference between British ones.

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