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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Should we adopt islamic banking

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    Islamic Banking and Finance
    The concept of Islamic banking and finance differs fundamentally from conventional western banking and finance. It may shock some to realize that the introduction of Islamic banking and finance means the end bank interest rate.

    The world is dominated by the conventional western system. Islamic banking is still in its infancy. But the growing economies of Islamic countries and the wish of Muslims to adhere where possible to Islamic principles have recently led to an increasing interest in Islamic banking and finance.

    This has also led to greater efforts to implement Islamic banking not only in Islamic countries but also in the West, often within the conventional banking and financial institutions themselves.

    The basic premise of conventional banking is bank interest. We put money in the bank and we expect the bank to pay us some interest while the money sits there. In fact the money is meanwhile being utilised by the bank, a lot of which is lent out, with an interest charge, to various types of borrowers. Bank interest rates have a great effect on our lives, and we anxiously anticipate news of any change in interest rates. They not only affect our deposits, but also our loans.

    We borrow for all kinds of purposes, one major purpose being the purchase of a home - mortgages. Mortgage interest rates are a major concern for everyone, and have an impact nationally and internationally, as can be seen in the current problems stemming from the so-called sub-prime mortgages. These problems are not going away soon.


    Riba

    In Islam interest -riba -is prohibited. To those unfamiliar with Islam, that seems a shocking idea. How could one lend or borrow money without interest? What's in it for the lender? And why is it forbidden?

    Actually it is not so alien a concept even in the Western tradition. Loan-sharking is clearly a deprecated practice. Usury is condemned in Christianity. It is also condemned in Judaism (save where it is practised against non-Jews). Interest is forbidden because it is a gain not resulting from any expenditure of effort or from any trading or commerce.

    Usury is now usually seen as lending at exorbitant interest rates. But this concept is derivative from its meaning simply of interest or lending with interest. In fact there is no real distinction between interest and usury, save that some would try to argue that it is a matter of degree. But probably no one has convincingly shown or justified where such a demarcation line lies.

    In Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, published in 1765-1769, it was said, "When money is lent on a contract to receive not only the principal sum again, but also an increase by way of compensation for the use, the increase is called interest by those who think it lawful, and usury by those who do not." That seems to say that the distinction between interest and usury is entirely arbitrary and a mere foible of man to suit his own convenient purpose.

    In Islam interest/usury is called riba, and is prohibited.

    From this simple prohibition against riba, flows many implications as to the proper practice of banking and finance.



    These are just some very basic introductory remarks. Apart from interest, other activities are also illegal, such as gambling, prostitution, alcohol. The interplay of these considerations lead to the construction of a financial and banking system, that sometimes resemble and sometimes differ significantly from the traditional Western system.
    Abstract
    Islamic banking is making a debut in the world of 'Finanzkapital'. Despite being new in the world of finance and still hesitant to make bold claims, it is emerging slowly but steadily. The men who took upon themselves the task of piloting the Islamic mode of 'Finanzkapital' belong to the new generation of Muslims. Not only are they endowed with a strong Islamic faith but are also equipped with the necessary technical wherewithal to rise to this occasion. The one who first started the ball rolling in this direction was Dr. Ahmed El-Naggar, an Egyptian economist. Among others who joined him later, were the late King Faisal and his son Prince Muhammad. Tunku Abdul Rahman too played the pioneering role in the establishment of the Islamic Development Bank in Jeddah.
    Although the superstructure of Islamic banking is still in the making and there are quite a large number of fundamental issues waiting to be resolved, the spirit to make this premier pas a success seems undaunted. While some Muslim countries have already set up Islamic banks, there are others where at least a part of the banking business has been Islamized. Pakistan is among those countries which have set up special counters for interest-free banking.

    As Islamic economics is not only confined to mere 'finance', quite a large number of steps are also being taken to orientate the economic contours of these countries compatible with the basic tenets of Islam. Zakat and Ushr have already been introduced in Pakistan. In addition, serious efforts are under way to find new ways and means towards raising funds through taxation etc. for purpose of meeting both the budgetary and developmental outlays.

    The World of Islam, today, finds itself in an enviable position. Not only is it now largely liberated from the colonial yoke, but is also endowed with the fabulous oil wealth. With a view to enable the Muslim countries to break their centuries-old economic stagnation, the present exercise into Islamic banking is destined to open up a new epoch of resurgent development and distributive justice. If this effort got crowned with success, not only will it benefit the Muslims, but will also usher in a new era of efficient and broad-based growth and development in the whole world.


    Introduction
    For centuries the Islamic economic doctrines have remained dormant and been unable to face the more aggressive and vested-interests specific socio-economic order inaugurated by the West. Whatever may have been the reasons for this fate behind the unsuccessful character of the Islamic economic order in the past, one thing that seems to be emerging on the international economic front is the fact that the world of Islam has in recent years started getting awakened from this (chronic) slumber. Apart from political awakening, some of the Muslim countries are today anxiously exploring prospects of liberating themselves from the economic order thrust upon them over the past few centuries by the more powerful Western countries. A special need for this change has been felt on account of the domination of the Western and Communist countries in the realm of economic activity. Banking and finance is one area where the Muslim countries feel inclined to do something fundamentally different. The reason behind this desire is the fact that unlike Western banking system which operates on the cardinal principle of 'interest', the Islamic economic doctrines abhor and forbid all those transactions which directly or indirectly deal with interest or riba, the terminus tecknicus used for this in the Holy Qur'an. One could judge the explicit and emphatic character of prohibition of riba from the following verse of the Holy Qur'an:
    " Allah, permitteth trading and forbiddeth riba Allah hath blighteth riba and made Sadaqat fruitful. Allah loveth not the impious and guilty." (al-Qur'an, II : 275-276).

    The above Qur'anic injunction was known to the Muslim community for all the past centuries and there were many a Muslim who, inspite of placing their funds with Western banks, did not accept interest which accrued on their deposit accounts, but none tried to establish banking and financing institutions compatible with the dictates and spirit of Islam. In some countries where Muslims ruled, the most convenient practice followed was to let the non-Muslims carry on banking and frequently even commerce and trading. One possible reason responsible for the successful development of banking and financing institutions by Western nations in the Muslims countries was perhaps again the alleged non-Islamic character of these institutions Nevertheless, it seems quite intriguing that despite the explicit verdict in the Holy Qur'an:

    " O ye who believe, ... give up what remainetk (due to you) from ribs, if ye are (in truth) believers. And if ye do not, then be warned of war (against you) from Allah and His Messenger." (al-Qur'an, II: 278-279)

    The Western banking and financing institutions were allowed to be set up in Muslim countries and there is ample evidence to prove that even Muslims themselves were not hesitant to establish interest-bound banks. There are also enough instances where Muslim countries became signatories to the establishment o? Interest-bound international institutions like the International Monetary Fund and the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development.

    Despite the acceptance of Western banking institutions by the Muslim countries, the West does not seem to be inclined to allow the establishment of Islamic banks in their countries. This is evident from a recent effort made by leading members of the Muslim community in South Africa to set up an Islamic bank on the basis of equity and profit and loss sharing with a share capital of 2 million Rands. The government did not approve the application saying that: "The registration of an additional banking institution at this juncture would not be in the public interest."' Other Western countries are likely to adopt similar attitude because the establishment of Islamic banks based on the principle of profit and loss rather than interest would shake the very foundations of Western banking institutions.

    The two banking institutions, one working on the basis of interest and the other on profit and loss, represent two different socio-economic orders. The difference, rather the cleavage between the two is of such a magnitude and quality that there are no prospects of any convergence between their goals. Both work for and aim at the realization of different goals. If some-how the ultimate result comes out to be not too divergent from each other, this is more incidental rather than inherent and innate.

    Growth of Western Banking System
    The Western banking system grew as it did historically was supposed to serve the interests of the powerful class of entrepreneurs, whether businessmen, industrialists or stock traders. The banks operated through the ingenious mechanism of dividing the society into savers and investors. Both these groups were assigned a certain role to play in the society. While the savers were encouraged to do a large part of the 'passive capital-formation', the investors were inspired to use initiative and enterprise to make the best use of this capital through investment activity. The result of this 'division of capital-saving and capital-investing' was that while the former class continued to remain condemned vegetating on paltry rewards, the latter class grew in wealth and stature day in and day out. Notwithstanding other factors which led to the emergence of capitalism in Europe, the role of banking institutions seems to have served as the principal agent responsible for having "triggered off this development. It is indeed a great irony of human history that people who saved capital were the least to benefit from it, while those who dexterously collected and used it through the mechanism of investment were the ones who profited the most. The way this system operates, enables the investors to appropriate the lion's share of the earned profit, while only the remainder falls to the lot of the savers. In some cases, as is the situation in Pakistan at present, the savers were condemned to have even a negative rate of return, while the intermediaries, namely, the banks and the final investors were the ones who made fortune on these savings.

    Factors Hindering Growth of Islamic Banking
    Many factors led to the non-emergence of banking institutions along with Islamic principles in the Muslim countries. One was the treatment of the doctrine of ribs more as a religious commandment rather than as an economic imperative. It was this approach which led to theological interpretation of concepts, such as, ribs and, in this way, economic rationality and egalitarian thrust inherent in Islamic principles were thrown overboard. The Muslim scholars unfortunately kept themselves so much immersed with religious obligations and the concomitant trivialities that the great Islamic concepts of economic utility and human welfare were never allowed to be transformed into gigantic institutions serving the greater cause and dynamic pursuits of the larger Ummah. It is, in fact, this non-enterprising spirit of the Muslim people which kept them down on the economic front for centuries, while other nations, although not well endowed in terms of great religious commandments, were quick to set up institutions on the basis of human institution, reflection and endeavor.

    Max Weber also admits this phenomenon when he says that while the majority of the great ideas were born in the Orient, it was the Occident which transformed them into great institutions. Not only does this verdict apply to riba, it even holds true in the case of Zakat. While the concept of Zakat is fourteen hundred years old, the forerunners of the present 'welfare state' or 'social security system' are no more than two hundred years old. The latter development, it may be mentioned here, wasn't, however, all too natural.' ... it arose as a way to combat socialism by mitigating some of the most conspicuous excesses of capitalism and thus removing the mobilization basis of the Social Democrats. As against this, the Qur'an concepts, such as Zakat and Sadaqat, aimed at offsetting the inequalities inherent in human social and economic order, were taken more or less as rituals rather than as the necessary wherewithal for institutionalizing social justice and social security. Similarly the doctrine of riba was also not understood in its broader and deeper perspective, and, as a result, the great revolution that it was supposed to usher in on the socio-economic front was frustrated.

    Many factors have given birth to the above situation. One of them, for instance, was the notion that theological doctrines and dogmas were anachronistic in nature. Perhaps there was some truth in this approach as far as it related to older religions like Christainty and Hinduism, but surely it wasn't applicable to Islam, a religion committed to progress and human emancipation. The tragedy that overtook the Muslim world was the time perspective. In the period during which the great banking institutions were established, the Muslim world had become the victim of intellectual decadence or it was forced to come under the influence or hegemony of non-Islamic nations. It is this era of decline which forced the Muslim world to submit itself to alien institutions arid, worse still, to antithetical intellectual concepts. Although many Muslim countries are now sovereign and active as far as the resurgence of Islam is concerned, there is no denying the fact that the century's old Western supremacy in the world of finance and trading is still far from being shaken.

    Islamic Concepts under Scrutiny
    The great concepts enunciated by Islam are at present passing through an era of intellectual scrutiny and inquiry. The task before the Muslim scholars is not simply to understand and interpret the Islamic doctrines in the light of the contemporary challenges, but also to prove the economic viability of these concepts. It is here where Islam must compete with other civilizations on an equal footing.

    We come back once more to the role of interest-free banking in the process of socio - economic, development. As mentioned earlier, the Western banking system, although it has over the past successfully removed some of its earlier shortcomings, nevertheless it still continues to serve as a financial arm of the capitalist class. The savers who generally represent a large majority of the population in the Muslim countries are continually .deprived of their legitimate share in national income. Because of the manipulations through the discount rate and, the concomitant cartelization of banks in respect of their rates of interest offered on deposits, it is the saver who gets the least reward for his efforts. The largest chunk of the profit is taken away by the investor and the bank serving as the intermediary between the saver and the investor. Through this modus operandi, it is the saver who is generally placed in a position of unequal relationship with the investor. As experience has shown, it is the investor who gains the most and passes on only the residual gain to the saver. I am reminded of a German proverb which says 'A saver always finances his own decline'. In Pakistan this proverb seems to be quite valid because the large majority of savers generally get a negative return on their savings if calculated b y giving due weight to inflation. The banks play the role of deposit collectors in the rural areas and dump these funds into the urban centers. The result is just catastrophic. Not only are the rural people given an inadequate return on their savings, but are also deprived of the opportunities to use their 'own' capital for local development purposes. The capital which is moved to the urban centers also creates a situation where a scarce commodity like capital is made plentiful with the result that the pattern of development financed with capital turns out to be more capital-intensive with the concomitant consequences of more demand for imports and the built-in-need for more foreign aid. Such a strategy is, of course, a volte-face on the development front. Not only does it lead towards further sharpening of income distribution but also neglects the proper and fuller use of the local resource endowment. The economic principle of 'opportunity cost' is thus thrown overboard.

    Side by side with lesser utilization of local resources, inequitable reward for the savers' capital, the present banking system also leads to greater propensity to consume and the accompanying lesser growth of investible funds. Because of the cartelization of banks in respect of fixed rates of interest offered on deposits, there also does not take place the required competition among the banks towards making optimum utilization of the capital resource. This too is a serious drawback in the existing working of the Western banking institutions.

    Interest-Free Banking System
    Unlike Western banking institutions the interest-free Islamic banks are endowed with certain inherent features which make them quite distinct. For instance, operate as they do largely on the basis of profit and loss sharing, the majority of their clients are not savers but holders of profit and loss accounts. In this way not only are the holders of PLS accounts enabled to get a much larger share of the investment-return, but are also psychologically converted from traditional savers into investors.

    It may be mentioned here that unlike a traditional saver who generally saves to finance some expenditure in future, an investor generally thinks of not meeting a particular expenditure in future, but much more in terms of building reproductive assets and services for the purpose of future command over resources in a dynamic sense. The Islamic banks operating to fulfill the latter function contribute towards acceleration of investment activity along with the realization of other concomitant goals of better income distribution, higher efficiency of capital and lesser attraction for demonstrative expenditure. An investor's Weltanschauung is world apart from that of a traditional saver. The efficiency of capital increases under the Islamic banking system, because, unlike the payment of a predetermined rate of interest on deposits, the banks are now forced to work efficiently for considerations of attracting clients on the basis of the rate of profit already announced by them in recent years and in the light of their future profit projections. Under the existing interest-bound savings, the banks are obliged to pay a pre-determined rate of interest which is generally no more than a quarter of the actual rate of profit earned on an average unit of investment.

    The Islamic banking system has also the advantage of promoting investment habits among the large majority of the people which in the longer perspective lead to lesser consumption and better distribution of income. There is also another advantage bound up with the Islamic banking system. It emerges as a result of the elimination of interest-bearing credit facilities offered to a businessman or a limited company. While under the Western banking system a limited company can meet its additional requirements of capital by obtaining a loan carrying a fixed rate of interest, the same company will, have to obtain funds on profit and loss-sharing basis under an Islamic banking system. The difference between the two is that while in the case of the former the company directors and shareholders pay the usual rate of interest, in the latter case, they will have to part with the larger part of the profit earned on the funds obtained from the bank under the PLS scheme. In the latter cast, it will not be the directors and shareholders of the company who will be able to appropriate the largest chunk of the profit earned on funds borrowed/ obtained from the bank, but it will be the original savers who by virtue of having opened their PLS accounts with the concerned bank will now become the legitimate recipients of the largest chunk of the profit earned by the company. The maximum that the bank can do in this case would be that it will retain a certain amount as management charge. The practice of the PLS scheme is going to have far reaching impact on the social structure of the population. ' Instead of the earlier capitalistic inequitable distribution of the profits earned on savings between the savers and the investors the Islamic banking system will enable the savers' community to receive a much larger share of the profit earned on their deposits. One must also mention here a special feature bound up with the issuance of credit under the Western banking system. This is that the borrowers of funds from the Western banking system can claim tax exemption on the amount of interest paid by them. In order to enable the Islamic (banks to compete with the Western banks, it would therefore be desirable either to withdraw the above tax-exemption or allow similar tax exemption on the basis of the 'profit' passed on by the investors to the savers through the intermediary banks. Prof. Dr. Rittershausen of the Cologne University told me and Ahmed El-Naggar in 1960-both of us were then doctoral students that the tax-exemption granted on the amount of interest paid by the borrowing firm was one of the cardinal privileges enjoyed by the entrepreneurial class under the capitalistic system.

    Some Distinctive Features of the Islamic Banking System
    It is clear from our above analysis that the Islamic banking system is far superior to the Western banking system. This is evident from the special features enjoyed by the Islamic banking system.
    The Islamic banking system is committed to efficient utilization of 'capital'. Savers being PLS holders force the banks to compete with each other and look for attractive investment opportunities. This leads to higher efficiency of capital.
    Under an Islamic banking system a large majority of the savers will switch over to PLS accounts, which will earn them better reward than is available under the Western banking system. This will also mean a better distribution of income.
    The change from a traditional saver to an investor will reduce the propensity to consume and thereby contribute towards increasing the propensity to save/invest.
    The shift from interest-bearing deposits to PLS will increase the share of the savers and reduce the 'unearned' income of the borrowers under the older system. This egalitarian character of 'investment management' will remove sharp income differentials between different income echelons.
    The first experiment in interest-free banking was undertaken by Prof. Dr. Ahmad El-Naggar during the early sixties in the Nile Delta. This maiden attempt covered a large number of villages.4 After achieving success in the Nile Delta, Dr. El-Naggar moved to Saudi Arabia and started a campaign for the establishment of Islamic banks throughout the Muslim World. In this struggle he was fortunate to get the support of Prince Muhammad and his illustrious father King Faisal. With hard work and persistent endeavors Dr. El-Naggar was able to steer through many difficulties and saw his efforts crowned with success when the Islamic Development Bank was established in Jeddah in 1975. Over the past few years, he has been instrumental in the establishment of no less than a dozen Islamic banks spread over the wider canvas of the Muslim world. Countries at present having one or more Islamic banks are Egypt, Sudan, Jordan, Kuwait, Dubai, Bahrain and Sharjah. Malaysia and Mauritania have also recently set up one Islamic Bank each. The reports so far received from the Islamic banks reveal that the performance of these banks has been quite satisfactory and it is hoped that they will be able to offer a much better service and reward to their clients than the competing Western banks. Egypt is the leader on the Islamic banking front. A few years ago Dr. El-Naggar set up the International Institute of Islamic Banking and Economics, Lefkosa (Turkish Cyprus)/Cairo to cater for the intellectual and operational needs of the Islamic banks. This institute also offers training facilities to banks staff in Islamic banking. There also exists an International Association of Islamic Banks with headquarters in Cairo. This institution helps member Muslim countries towards the establishment of Islamic banks.

    Islamic Banks : Both Efficient and Distributive
    With the successful working of the Islamic banks, the Muslim world is again heading towards a new era of financial institutions and equitable socio-economic development. The results so far obtained from the experience of the few Islamic banks look quite baffling. Not only the new PLS accounts are improving the efficiency of capital, but are also contributing towards the betterment of the existing pattern of income distribution. Even the present high propensity to consume rampant among the Muslim peoples is expected to go down in the long run and in its place there will emerge an overall acceleration of investment. These are revolutionary changes, if properly handled they are sure in due course of time to overshadow older and more sophisticated Western banking institutions.

    The Islamisation of the banking sector is likely to come of age in the next decade or two. The other thrust of the Muslim countries is likely to be on Zakat and other taxation measures. With proper planning and careful implementation, they too can play their role in changing the unequal relationship perpetrated on social groups. While doing all this, we must not lose sight of the fact that all these great doctrines of Islam are not rituals, they are in fact the foundation-pillars of an egalitarian and development-inducing order.

    The Totality Thesis
    Despite the too obvious superiority of the interest-free banking system over the Western banking system, there are Muslim scholars who, for some reason, are still feeling hesitant to come out openly for the abolition of interest. One observes this, for instance, from a study recently published in Pakistan. It says: "To think of abolishing riba without reference to the 'totality' of the Islamic economic system is to put the cart before the horse. In fact, there is a real danger that the abolition of riba and its replacement by the profit-sharing system will increase the level of economic exploitation of the poor by the rich, thereby negating the basic Islamic principle of al-'Adl wal Ihsan.

    It seems that the authors have not understood the basic message of the Holy Qur'an and have tried in vain to underrate the issue by tying it up with the change in the totality of the Islamic economic system. The Islamic banking system as explained in this paper is not going to strengthen the forces of exploitation, as apprehended by the authors. On the contrary, the Islamic banking system will eradicate the existing exploitation by the investors/banks of the savers. Not only this, the Islamic banks will also improve the efficiency of capital and will inspire many a saver to become active investors. The process of Islamisation in the banking sector is sure to have positive spill over and trickle down impact on the broader social canvas resulting in more equitable distribution of income and quicker development. No doubt the 'totality thesis' has its own merit, but there is no reason why one should wait endlessly lor it and stop looking for partial solutions to set the ball of Islamization rolling in the Muslim countries. We know there are numerous excesses at present obtaining in the Muslim world, but aren't we forgetting that the gravest of all sins that a Muslim can commit is the dealing with riba-bound business. The Holy Qur'an says :

    "Those who devour riba, shall rise up before God like men whom Satan has demented by his touch." (al-Quran, II : 275)

    Beyond Theological Frontiers
    In this exercise of Islamisation one will have to be quite careful in not letting himself be misled by the historical endowment of the Muslim civilization. The riba doctrine as well as several others must be interpreted in the light of the Qur'ari and the contemporary challenges. If, however, we let ourselves be dictated by interpretations of early scholars and jurists, the results might not always be much rewarding; our approach must be beyond theological frontiers and surely away from barren discourses. In this scientific era, it is time that we look at ribs strictly from the point of view of the Holy Qur'an and examine how it could serve as a new intellectual break-through on the economic and banking front. It is only through such an attitude of mind that we can clear a backlog of more than a millennium. The existing order needs to be corrected and the abolition of riba will be just one effective way of making a start. ***By: M.A. Hussein Mullick


    As far as I can tell the end of our current system of finance is inevitable as this disaster has saddled us with so much debt and I don't see anything stopping either this crisis continuing to cascade or another one forming later. They are always going to be at the mercy of fluctuating interest rates, market uncertainty and asset bubbles.

    Is it possible that in Islamic banking there is a more stable system?

    It should be noted that Islamic banks did not suffer in the same way Western banks did in the current crisis because the rules don't allow for that type of extended contract and laden risk ridden derivative. There are to many contractual ties to be permissable. In another words they wouldn't have been packaging up securities and playing pass the toxic debt parcel.
    Last edited by Darth Red; November 23, 2010 at 03:03 PM. Reason: spoiler

  2. #2

    Default Re: Should we adopt islamic banking

    Islamic echonomies are the envy of the world.
    lol

  3. #3
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Should we adopt islamic banking

    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    Islamic echonomies are the envy of the world.
    Economies and the banking system are not the same thing. Thanks for reading the article - I know you didn't. Which makes your response worth about as much as the dog turd I stood in on my way to the shop this morning.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Should we adopt islamic banking

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Economies and the banking system are not the same thing. Thanks for reading the article - I know you didn't. Which makes your response worth about as much as the dog turd I stood in on my way to the shop this morning.
    Economies are shaped by their financial systems, Denny. Most of the reason Europe boomed in the 1500s-1600s was because of the development of an advanced financial system and overcoming the prohibitions of the church against interest. Much of the reason strongly Catholic countries did not boom to the extent that their Protestant counterparts did, despite having an early start in colonial trade was the primitive nature of their financial systems.

    Much of the reason parts of the Middle East aren't a particularly fantastic place to do business in (unless you're a foreign-financed expatriate or your economic weight comes from personal connections) is because of the difficulty in acquiring credit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    How about we define the rights that allow a government to say that isn't within my freedom.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Should we adopt islamic banking

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Thanks for reading the article - I know you didn't. Which makes your response worth about as much as the dog turd I stood in on my way to the shop this morning.
    I didnt have to. I already knew what was coming when I read the header. The type of pish in that article, is the same as someone eating Chinese food and starts questioning if one should turn to China style communism instead of capitalism because China has a surpluss.

    Economies and the banking system are not the same thing
    Yes they are, they are like knife and fork, hammer and nail.
    Some people...

    ......



    edit : Why didnt you link to the source of this "article"? I'm sure no one would have thought that something posted on Islamicworld.net would be biased.
    Last edited by Haakon; November 23, 2010 at 07:24 AM.
    lol

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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Should we adopt islamic banking

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolling Thunder View Post
    Economies are shaped by their financial systems, Denny. Most of the reason Europe boomed in the 1500s-1600s was because of the development of an advanced financial system and overcoming the prohibitions of the church against interest. Much of the reason strongly Catholic countries did not boom to the extent that their Protestant counterparts did, despite having an early start in colonial trade was the primitive nature of their financial systems.
    Shaped by the financial system but a good economy could be squandered by a bad government equally. That is why despite having had oodles of wealth flowing into it for the best part of a century Saudi Arabia does not have a first world standard of living.

    An economy is a whole, a banking system is a part that helps shape it but is not it. Of course it has an effect it is a giant industry but so does manufacturing. One is a tradable item the other effects how it can be traded. It is a facilitatory part but it is not the economy.

    Much of the reason parts of the Middle East aren't a particularly fantastic place to do business in (unless you're a foreign-financed expatriate or your economic weight comes from personal connections) is because of the difficulty in acquiring credit.
    Once again to try and ignore other factors would be ludicrous, look back to your own example, to pin the growth of prosperity on interest rates ignores other factors in economic development like the monopolisation of trade by the hanseatic league, the change from agricultural economies, the black death, the growth of long term trade connections.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    wont be as much 'wealth creation', but it definitely sounds safer and more sure
    The wealth generation of the last decade was pretty much false and has been wiped out, that and more, by the crisis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    I didnt have to. I already knew what was coming when I read the header. The type of pish in that article, is the same as someone eating Chinese food and starts questioning if one should turn to China style communism instead of capitalism because China has a surpluss.
    What a load of crap. The debate is not about the actual strength of islamic banks now but about how one system compares to another.

    Yes they are, they are like knife and fork, hammer and nail.
    Some people...

    ......



    edit : Why didnt you link to the source of this "article"? I'm sure no one would have thought that something posted on Islamicworld.net would be biased.
    See above for the banking system being the economy...

    I was merely looking for information on the islamic banking system not looking for facts and figures. Are you seriously going to think I am overly biased to Islam

    Hi welcome to TWC my name is Denny Crane, we like to keep things rational around here.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Should we adopt islamic banking

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Shaped by the financial system but a good economy could be squandered by a bad government equally. That is why despite having had oodles of wealth flowing into it for the best part of a century Saudi Arabia does not have a first world standard of living.
    Partly the case, but I wouldn't term any government across the course of 1500-1700 to be 'good', considering the sheer, endemic corruption experienced across the field. A more precise term would be that poor government economic policy squanders money - and part of Saudi Arabia's economic woes are extremely poor economic policies, including restrictions on trade, finance and business that only nutcase fanatics could dream sensible and only absolute monarch's could tolerate.


    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    An economy is a whole, a banking system is a part that helps shape it but is not it. Of course it has an effect it is a giant industry but so does manufacturing. One is a tradable item the other effects how it can be traded. It is a facilitatory part but it is not the economy.
    Quite agreed, but, one of the single most important factors in economic development and growth is the availability and cost of credit. Banking is not the sole part of any economy, but without the services it provides you can not create, develop or sustain an even remotely free economy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    How about we define the rights that allow a government to say that isn't within my freedom.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Should we adopt islamic banking

    wont be as much 'wealth creation', but it definitely sounds safer and more sure

  9. #9

    Default Re: Should we adopt islamic banking

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    They are always going to be at the mercy of fluctuating interest rates, market uncertainty and asset bubbles.

    Is it possible that in Islamic banking there is a more stable system?
    This was an interesting article. Not sure exactly how I feel about it in its entirety yet but do want to mention something: Not all asset bubbles are entirely bad and some can provide the foundation for future innovation (although not all).

    Its important to note the difference between say the 'dot.com bubble' of 2000-2001 and the recent Great Recession of 2008.

    The dot.com bubble was the result of giant fundamental advances in technology and innovation over a period of 20+ years. By 2001 were some companies overvalued? Sure. But after that bubble burst there were many strong tech companies that just kept growing and more importantly, the dot.com ascension left behind a huge fiber-optic cable and technology infrastructure that is foundation for our continued increasing innovation of the internet and mobile technology. That is comparable to the early asset bubbles of the railroads in England for example that still created infrastructure that was used for decades.

    This is very different than the Recession of 2008 which was based on totally bogus "innovations" in financial services products and the special exemptions from any regulations which governed their use. This coupled with allowing banks to leverage up to 40-1 were stupid decisions and unlike the dot.com bubble there was no actual infrastructure or structural improvements spurring this bubble.

    So I think it needs to be noted that all bubbles are not equal or caused by similar factors in the economy. The dot.com bubble was relatively natural and "healthy" in the sense it still produced big advances in infrastructures that benefit future generations whereas the housing bubble was entirely artificially induced by really,really stupid decisions.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Should we adopt islamic banking

    Great, they should open the banks and we'll see. Let's leave it to the market.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  11. #11
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Should we adopt islamic banking

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    Great, they should open the banks and we'll see. Let's leave it to the market.
    Yes we should and if it was truly an open banking system then all our current banks would be down, gone, dead and buried. The point being to limit our risk some way other than selling our children down the stream with debt.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Should we adopt islamic banking

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Yes we should and if it was truly an open banking system then all our current banks would be down, gone, dead and buried. The point being to limit our risk some way other than selling our children down the stream with debt.
    well, if it works... they're free to try anyway.
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    Default Re: Should we adopt islamic banking

    Islamic banking is just western styled banking with workarounds. The workarounds are often inefficient though so that the middleclass get shut out on many opportunities to own and operate family business with promising a percentage of the action. Seems more like the mafia than banking.

    More important is the problem of insurance (pooled risk) against normal disasters such as a building burning, vandalized, or stripped of some contents. This devestation from fire and other risks is a far greater problem. Bankers will not loan for consumer housing and vehicles since there is no effective workaround to the lack of insurance on consumer purchases. When islam can solve the problem of family based (not business shared profit) insurance, get with me.

    btw -- you need a link to the article (or I missed it).
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Should we adopt islamic banking

    I'm guessing I wouldn't have gotten my loan I needed to open my office under this system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    btw -- you need a link to the article (or I missed it).
    http://www.islamic-world.net/economi...anzkapital.htm
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Should we adopt islamic banking

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    I'm guessing I wouldn't have gotten my loan I needed to open my office under this system.



    http://www.islamic-world.net/economi...anzkapital.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    How about we define the rights that allow a government to say that isn't within my freedom.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Should we adopt islamic banking

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolling Thunder View Post
    Once again, Doctor Snide Insinuation strikes again.
    Snide?

    That barely even registered on the snidometer.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

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  17. #17
    ★Bandiera Rossa☭'s Avatar The Red Menace
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    Default Re: Should we adopt islamic banking

    I have heard a bit about Islamic banking, it seems much better than the conventional system..The problem is that the rich would not support it, and people would freak out over anything associated in any way with Islam.


  18. #18
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Should we adopt islamic banking

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    Islamic banking is just western styled banking with workarounds. The workarounds are often inefficient though so that the middleclass get shut out on many opportunities to own and operate family business with promising a percentage of the action. Seems more like the mafia than banking.

    More important is the problem of insurance (pooled risk) against normal disasters such as a building burning, vandalized, or stripped of some contents. This devestation from fire and other risks is a far greater problem. Bankers will not loan for consumer housing and vehicles since there is no effective workaround to the lack of insurance on consumer purchases. When islam can solve the problem of family based (not business shared profit) insurance, get with me.

    btw -- you need a link to the article (or I missed it).
    Nah I forgot to put links in and then walked away and left the article so god knows where they came from, they weren't exactly technical are proof laden so the links aren't that relevant. I was merely looking for a basic introduction to the idea.

    The theory isn't a lot like normal banking at all, rather than workarounds I'd say it is structured differently. With the banks say buying houses and reselling them to you at a mark up. Having rules not allowing extended multiple contracts.

    To say it is more like the mafia is to say African and Bangledeshi microfinance is because those ideas sidestepped convential lending principles as well to offer a system that would work where no other is.

    As to the second paragraph, I'm afraid to say I just don't understand what you are laying out there. Could you try again for the slower amongst us (me)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bandiera Rossa View Post
    I have heard a bit about Islamic banking, it seems much better than the conventional system..The problem is that the rich would not support it, and people would freak out over anything associated in any way with Islam.
    It doesn't have to be islamic in nature or by name. Merely if there is a system out there we could look at and observe if it could work better than our own, adopt some principles.

  19. #19
    ★Bandiera Rossa☭'s Avatar The Red Menace
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    Default Re: Should we adopt islamic banking

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post

    It doesn't have to be islamic in nature or by name. Merely if there is a system out there we could look at and observe if it could work better than our own, adopt some principles.
    I understand that, but if there was even a whisper about the system having some connection with Islam Fox News will be abuzz about how it's a communist-Islamist conspiracy to enact Šarīʿa law or some other like that.


  20. #20

    Default Re: Should we adopt islamic banking

    In the end the risks are still there.

    It appears that Islamic banks make their money by investing their depositors monies in various things. The bank is more like a brokerage that allows you to withdraw and deposit anytime with no penalties. This means that all deposited funds are at risk of an investment going bad.

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