Is Christianity a Religion of Masochists?

[Exarch]

hmm?
especially given the history of stylites, and very public desires for martyrdom and torture?

i think that the whole emphasis on guilt leads to a desire for self punishment-and when the romans stopped persecuting christians-they started to become masochists, fasting and becoming stylites and self flagellating in some cases.

i certainly wouldn't regard that sort of behavior as particularly healthy either.

what do you think?

[Pontifex Maximus]

To some extent yes.

[RO Citizen]

To some extent yes.

To a big extend, I'd say, mainly in uncivilized countries like Romania&Ecuador, or in the early periods of Christianity.

[Squiggle]

No one wants to be a martyr...Christian ascetics hardly constitutes a large portion of the population, let alone self flagellation- and that entire bit was thrown out in the Protestant reformation. So no, its not...at all. Mindless anti christian bunk.

[Pontifex Maximus]

No one wants to be a martyr

Early christians beg to differ.

[Squiggle]

Early christians beg to differ.

No they dont. They were happy to be a martyr in the context of the situation; they were willing to die for their faith if it stood as a symbols for others to come to christ, and/or tolerate the faith. They were hardly gleefully screaming, kill me kill me. Christianity is not a religion of death.

All in all I would say christians fall into 4 motivations. Repenters, Judgers, Lovers and Loyalists. The reptenters are the ones who think life is as bad as it is because they deserve it and that their lives will improve as their relationship with god does. The judgers judge everyone around them to the standard of christian morality (aka their subjective interpretation of it) and tend to be both the most violent christians and most fundamentalist. The lovers just want to be good people and to spread that love around. The loyalists are loyal to christianity for some other reason probably having to do with their own personal attachment/upbringing or a misplaced sense of group loyalty.

psuedo sociological crap is always appreciated elfdude, dont you ever change.

[Exarch]

No one wants to be a martyr...Christian ascetics hardly constitutes a large portion of the population, let alone self flagellation- and that entire bit was thrown out in the Protestant reformation. So no, its not...at all. Mindless anti christian bunk.

But some christian groups today-like opus dei-still practice a form of self mortification-inspired by the suffering of christ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_Dei#Mortification
indeed it seems as though the 'practice' of masochism enables them to experience what they believe their deity experienced.
and in some parts of the world, christians will allow themselves to be crucified-for what other reason, than masochism linked to spirituality?

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

I can see the problem with a self-mortifying asceticism... Since that's not really necessary. But how can someone who doesn't even understand the need for asceticism comprehend it?

The Christian notions of sin and guilt are decidedly misanthropic. I agree they are so in a rather excessive way, compared to the view of other religions, but... Considering what man is capable of, I can't really say they are guilty of excessive unrealism.

[Elfdude]

All in all I would say christians fall into 4 motivations. Repenters, Judgers, Lovers and Loyalists. The reptenters are the ones who think life is as bad as it is because they deserve it and that their lives will improve as their relationship with god does. The judgers judge everyone around them to the standard of christian morality (aka their subjective interpretation of it) and tend to be both the most violent christians and most fundamentalist. The lovers just want to be good people and to spread that love around. The loyalists are loyal to christianity for some other reason probably having to do with their own personal attachment/upbringing or a misplaced sense of group loyalty.

[★Bandiera Rossa☭]

It's a religion of sexual deviants..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_...l#Loving_Jesus

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

psuedo sociological crap is always appreciated elfdude, dont you ever change.

I love psychologists. They'll always tell me I'm troubled, then they'll give me a long list of meds to swallow day and night; don't you just love how so many people follow that blindly every day?

[Elfdude]

I love psychologists. They'll always tell me I'm troubled, then they'll give me a long list of meds to swallow day and night; don't you just love how so many people follow that blindly every day?

It helps when you understand categories are something you put objects/people in to convey understanding of them to others rather than assuming that by identifying the category they fall into you can identify the person. Psychiatry by it's nature does not understand this. Combined with the push of chemical medicine rather than therapy which attempts to solve the problem at its roots it's understandable why you have this opinion of it. Still psychiatrists are doctors.

[black-dragon]

A religion where everybody deserves to die for being human and doing human things, but are pardoned by the sacrifice of some guy's son....who it just so happens will torture you forever unless you accept this 'free gift'.

Not masochistic at all.

[Haakon]

Christianity, just like Islam, is a religion based on stolen identity and false beliefs. The nature of it is highly irrational, and yes quite masochistic.

[basics]

" i think that the whole emphasis on guilt leads to a desire for self punishment-and when the romans stopped persecuting christians-they started to become masochists, fasting and becoming stylites and self flagellating in some cases. "

Exarch,

This is where being born again and thinking that you are born again separates the truth from the false. A born again believer knows that Jesus Christ as his or her substitute paid all their dues at the cross through His blood. The latter never having experienced these things always has doubts and through them is always trying to assuage God by this self-inflicted means. In other words he or she is working their socks off for nothing.

Around them are all sorts of crutches like icons, statues, relics, beads, even Mary to bolster what is not there and never was. To kiss an icon, to pray to a statue or to take the skin off one's back is works by any other means and works never ever saved anyone. Let there be no doubt about that.

The Christian is saved by faith of Jesus Christ because each and every one was represented at the cross as if they personally were actually hanging there, by their substitute, Jesus Christ. The flagelation for them was taken on board by their Saviour on that very day at Calvary. Washed in the blood of the Lamb they need not ever question their right to enter heaven never mind flog themselves to death hoping to get there.

Whatever these people do to themselves it is not and cannot ever be called Christianity. Oh, they might think it is but more fool to them.

[Col. Tartleton]

If you're worshiping Jesus instead of God you may as well worship Mary as she is his equal in terms of divinity. She was parthogenic also. She may not be "The savior." But her role as "Queen of Heaven" is pretty clear. If Jesus was God so was Mary.

I'm being hypothetical here. I'm not convinced anyone was God. Jesus was as divine as the rest of us.

[basics]

" If you're worshiping Jesus instead of God you may as well worship Mary as she is his equal in terms of divinity. She was parthogenic also. She may not be "The savior." But her role as "Queen of Heaven" is pretty clear. If Jesus was God so was Mary.

I'm being hypothetical here. I'm not convinced anyone was God. Jesus was as divine as the rest of us. "

Col. Tartleton,

It is not a question of worshipping Jesus instead of God, rather it is because He is part of the Godhead that we do worship Him. Let's get the queen of heaven bit sorted out while we're at it. There is no queen of heaven, never was and never will be. The title began in the minds of them that turned Nimrod or Ninus into the awaited saviour, namely Cush and Semiramis who themselves assumed titles such as the one above, Cush himself assuming the name of the Father.

So we had a trinity even then which rather faults your assumption and one based on what these persons knew from before and after the flood as brought along by Noah and his family, but not the true one which does not involve a woman at all. It is noticable that the false queen of heaven is denoted by a dove the same denotation that is given the Holy Spirit in Scripture. So in the pagan style the queen is also the spirit that makes their trinity.

When Rome took up Christianity to be the state religion it too, Rome that is, had a queen of heaven deriving from the original mentioned which was integrated into the new state religion. Therefore it was epedient to make Mary that same personage so that the pagan devotees saw no immediate differences between the one and the other. For some stupid reason Rome has never corrected this as there is not one iota of Scripture to authenticate such a claim.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

The Christian circles I'm familiar with (raised a Baptist) have always taught that Christians should expect persecution for being separate from "the world." If people don't see you as "different" then you must not be living as a Christian should. I think a lot of people as a result set out to be different so they can feel godly.

Also, I've always thought that Christians are often very slavish. I mean, I understand submission to a supernatural, omnipotent being but... I don't know how to describe it but sometimes they're just spineless and pathetic.

[The Million Dollar Prons]

When Rome took up Christianity to be the state religion it too, Rome that is, had a queen of heaven deriving from the original mentioned which was integrated into the new state religion. Therefore it was epedient to make Mary that same personage so that the pagan devotees saw no immediate differences between the one and the other. For some stupid reason Rome has never corrected this as there is not one iota of Scripture to authenticate such a claim.

Not only is that not what happened, but also the Orthodox Church did correct Marian related herises.

And mind you, the church venerated Mary before it put together the bible. So once again, you're trying to say that for 2,000 years the earliest churches have misinterirpited scriputre that they themselves put together.


Also, iota.


Now does loving Mary make you a masochist? Nah, the fact I enter the ring and get body slamed 5 times a night makes me a masochist WOO

[hellheaven1987]

hmm?
especially given the history of stylites, and very public desires for martyrdom and torture?

Not really; martyrdom generally happened only when the situation demanded it. I have not read an account about someone volunteered to be martyr when situation did not demand it.

i think that the whole emphasis on guilt leads to a desire for self punishment-and when the romans stopped persecuting christians-they started to become masochists, fasting and becoming stylites and self flagellating in some cases.

Apartly, Crusaders would not agree with you they are masochists.

In the end, I would say Christianity is not a religion of masochists, but rather a religion of splited personality; the material part recognize to live in real world many Christianity codes need to be broken, while the religious part constantly feel guilty for breaking those codes. In the end it become an endless cycle of breaking codes and redemption, without a solution to break the cycle.