Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 30

Thread: The opposite of self-determination

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Vizsla's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    That place where the sun don't shine (England)
    Posts
    1,290

    Default The opposite of self-determination

    Self-determination is generally seen as a good thing.
    If Kosovans or Eritreans want independence then we’re all supposed to support them – at least in spirit.
    Fair enough.

    What about reverse self-determination? What if the majority of citizens in a country would like to expel a region of that country?
    Example (and this will never happen – I’m just interested in the theory):
    If a majority of the UK population voted in a referendum to expel some part of the UK against the will of the population of that part.
    Whose self-determination wins out?
    In a democracy the majority opinion is right. But individuals have a right to self-determination.
    So which right is right?

    This has been bugging me for a while now.
    “Cretans, always liars” Epimenides (of Crete)

  2. #2
    Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    21,467

    Default Re: The opposite of self-determination

    can u elaborate what u mena by 'expel'
    do u mean expel ppl from the country or expel ppl and territory from the country?

    like what malaysia did with singapore?

  3. #3
    Their Law's Avatar Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    York
    Posts
    4,249

    Default Re: The opposite of self-determination

    I think he means in say a situation in which the majority of a country vote to remove a section of their nation from their nation. Ie The UK voting to kick Scotland out.
    "You have a decent ear for notes
    but you can't yet appreciate harmony."

  4. #4
    Vizsla's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    That place where the sun don't shine (England)
    Posts
    1,290

    Default Re: The opposite of self-determination

    Quote Originally Posted by Their Law View Post
    I think he means in say a situation in which the majority of a country vote to remove a section of their nation from their nation. Ie The UK voting to kick Scotland out.
    This.
    Scots would keep their country. It would cease to be a part of the UK.
    And if Albanians (there is no such thing as Kosovars, Kosovans, Kosovarians etc...) decide that they are gonna wipe out another ethnic group, create ethnic clear land and then proclaim "self determination" we should support that to ?!!
    Why not support hitler's ideas to about moving few ethnic groups here and there while your' at it...
    Not this.
    If you want to discuss issues related to Balkan nationalism please start your own thread. Cheers.
    “Cretans, always liars” Epimenides (of Crete)

  5. #5
    Azog 150's Avatar Civitate
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Liverpool, UK
    Posts
    10,112

    Default Re: The opposite of self-determination

    Quote Originally Posted by Viz View Post
    Not this.
    If you want to discuss issues related to Balkan nationalism please start your own thread. Cheers.


    You should know better then to make even a passing reference to anything Balkans-related in your OP (Or anywhere else in the thread for that matter) or else the thread gets flooded with nationalistic rants. I fear it may already be too late....



    Its an interesting question though and something I have never really thought about.
    Last edited by Azog 150; November 18, 2010 at 08:54 AM.
    Under the Patronage of Jom!

  6. #6

    Default Re: The opposite of self-determination

    Quote Originally Posted by Their Law View Post
    I think he means in say a situation in which the majority of a country vote to remove a section of their nation from their nation. Ie The UK voting to kick Scotland out.
    Flanders want to get rid of Walloonia. Considering the Flemish are the majority, and they want to get rid of the Walloon minority, you can say it's the reverse of self determination.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The opposite of self-determination

    Self-determination is generally seen as a good thing.
    If Kosovans or Eritreans want independence then we’re all supposed to support them – at least in spirit.
    Fair enough.
    And if Albanians (there is no such thing as Kosovars, Kosovans, Kosovarians etc...) decide that they are gonna wipe out another ethnic group, create ethnic clear land and then proclaim "self determination" we should support that to ?!!
    Why not support hitler's ideas to about moving few ethnic groups here and there while your' at it...
    I samo dotle, do tog kamena,do tog bedema,
    Nogom ces stupit, mozda poganom,drznes li dalje?...Cuces gromove
    Kako tisinu zemlje slobodne...Sa grmljavinom strasnom kidaju;
    Razumeces ih srcem strasljivim...Sta ti sa smelim glasom govore,
    Pa ces o stenja tvrdom kamenu
    Brijane glave teme celavo
    U zanosnome strahu lupati...
    Al' jedan izraz, jednu misao,
    Čućeš u borbe strašnoj lomljavi:
    "Otadžbina je ovo Srbina!..."

  8. #8
    ♔Goodguy1066♔'s Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Kokhav Ya'ir, Israel / Jewhannesburg
    Posts
    9,043

    Default Re: The opposite of self-determination

    I think you're looking for excommunication?
    A member of the Most Ancient, Puissant and Honourable Society of Silly Old Duffers
    Secret Sig Content Box!

    Both male and female walruses have tusks and have been observed using these overgrown teeth to help pull themselves out of the water.

    The mustached and long-tusked walrus is most often found near the Arctic Circle, lying on the ice with hundreds of companions. These marine mammals are extremely sociable, prone to loudly bellowing and snorting at one another, but are aggressive during mating season. With wrinkled brown and pink hides, walruses are distinguished by their long white tusks, grizzly whiskers, flat flipper, and bodies full of blubber.
    Walruses use their iconic long tusks for a variety of reasons, each of which makes their lives in the Arctic a bit easier. They use them to haul their enormous bodies out of frigid waters, thus their "tooth-walking" label, and to break breathing holes into ice from below. Their tusks, which are found on both males and females, can extend to about three feet (one meter), and are, in fact, large canine teeth, which grow throughout their lives. Male walruses, or bulls, also employ their tusks aggressively to maintain territory and, during mating season, to protect their harems of females, or cows.
    The walrus' other characteristic features are equally useful. As their favorite meals, particularly shellfish, are found near the dark ocean floor, walruses use their extremely sensitive whiskers, called mustacial vibrissae, as detection devices. Their blubbery bodies allow them to live comfortably in the Arctic region—walruses are capable of slowing their heartbeats in order to withstand the polar temperatures of the surrounding waters.
    The two subspecies of walrus are divided geographically. Atlantic walruses inhabit coastal areas from northeastern Canada to Greenland, while Pacific walruses inhabit the northern seas off Russia and Alaska, migrating seasonally from their southern range in the Bering Sea—where they are found on the pack ice in winter—to the Chukchi Sea. Female Pacific walruses give birth to calves during the spring migration north.
    Only Native Americans are currently allowed to hunt walruses, as the species' survival was threatened by past overhunting. Their tusks, oil, skin, and meat were so sought after in the 18th and 19th centuries that the walrus was hunted to extinction in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and around Sable Island, off the coast of Nova Scotia.

  9. #9

    Default Re: The opposite of self-determination

    Wait, so expel a region against the will of the people in that region? I really don't see how that is even possible. The opposite of self determination is really "territorial integrity"....
    [ Under Patronage of Jom ]
    [ "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Matthew 6:21 ]

  10. #10
    Fight!'s Avatar Question Everything.
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    7,820

    Default Re: The opposite of self-determination

    I've also been perplexed by this paradox, or more broadly majority rights versus minority rights.

    My answer to this is unsatisfactorily toe-dodgy, being that minority rights should be respected insofar as they have no considerable detrimental effect on the majority. For example, in the case of marriage, the minority and their desire for polygamy wouldn't have a significant effect on the majority. Just one controversial example, but there are certainly others.
    Roll over the names for quotes

    Aristotle || Buddha || Musashi


    Under the proud patronage of Saint Nicholas
    Proud patron of ★Bandiera Rossa☭

  11. #11
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    12,340

    Default Re: The opposite of self-determination

    So which right is right?
    The mightier right is right.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

    -Ella Hill

  12. #12
    The Fishman's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Airstrip One.
    Posts
    1,006

    Icon1 Re: The opposite of self-determination

    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    The mightier right is right.
    Might is only right in practice. Saying that it is fundementally a good idea is fascism.
    "Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

    - Marcus Aurelius, Roman Emperor from 161 AD to 180 AD

  13. #13
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    12,340

    Default Re: The opposite of self-determination

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fishman View Post
    Might is only right in practice. Saying that it is fundementally a good idea is fascism.
    Fascism was defeated by might.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

    -Ella Hill

  14. #14
    Primicerius
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Invercargill, te grymm und frostbittern zouth.
    Posts
    3,611

    Default Re: The opposite of self-determination

    What are some examples of this in history? Where one territory (either the government or populace) wishes to remain in union or part of another but has been 'kicked out'?

  15. #15
    Vizsla's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    That place where the sun don't shine (England)
    Posts
    1,290

    Default Re: The opposite of self-determination

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    What are some examples of this in history? Where one territory (either the government or populace) wishes to remain in union or part of another but has been 'kicked out'?
    I was thinking about the future, not the past.
    You can think of it as majority vs minority rights, like nicoisbest said, if you prefer.
    The answer seems to be that there is no right answer. So it comes down to who has the bigger stick.
    “Cretans, always liars” Epimenides (of Crete)

  16. #16

    Default Re: The opposite of self-determination

    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    Fascism was defeated by might.

    neoliberalism and neoconservatism have been destroyed?! When did that happen?! (ofc they are a slight wariation, instead of turning the corporations into an arm of the state, they want to turn the state into a subsiduary of corporate elites, but still. same result business at the heart of goverment, and everything run to improve the waelth of the few and destroy the rest)
    Last edited by justicar5; November 21, 2010 at 08:45 AM.

  17. #17
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    12,340

    Default Re: The opposite of self-determination

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    neoliberalism and neoconservatism have been destroyed?! When did that happen?! (ofc they are a slight wariation, instead of turning the corporations into an arm of the state, they want to turn the state into a subsiduary of corporate elites, but still. same result business at the heart of goverment, and everything run to improve the waelth of the few and destroy the rest)
    As usual - rabble rabble rabble.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

    -Ella Hill

  18. #18

    Default Re: The opposite of self-determination

    The question you should be asking is why would a geopolitical entity would want independence from another geoplitical entity. It is rare that a country would ever want to expel lands that it currently controls over, whilst the land and people wishes to stay. Each situation must be taken as unique.
    Smilies...the resort of those with a vacuous argument

  19. #19
    Azog 150's Avatar Civitate
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Liverpool, UK
    Posts
    10,112

    Default Re: The opposite of self-determination

    Maybe.

    Look at Northern Ireland for example. Its an economic black hole that's previously been riddled with violence and Republican terrorists from there remain one of Britain's biggest security threats. Most people in Great Britain view it as more trouble then its worth. But at the end of the day, the majority in Northern Ireland wish to remain part of the UK and thats what counts.

    But lets imagine the people of Great Britain did vote to kick out Northern Ireland, what would happen?
    Under the Patronage of Jom!

  20. #20
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    The Hell called Conscription
    Posts
    35,615

    Default Re: The opposite of self-determination

    Quote Originally Posted by Azog 150 View Post
    But lets imagine the people of Great Britain did vote to kick out Northern Ireland, what would happen?
    Nothing would happen for UK?? It is not like Protestant in NI would become terrorists and attack UK...

    Now, it is, however, possible that Protestants and Catholics would start a civil war in NI, aim on exterminate eachothers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •