(somwhat) confused newb

[Feckless]

Hi all. Just started M2:TW a while ago and loving it thus far. Haven't played any of the TW series since the original Shogun demo waaay back, so this is all new to me. So far I've played a mini-campaign as Spain in vanilla M2, but I dropped it after killing off the Moors (too busy invading the Sahara, apparently) in just over a dozen turns. The AI just seemed way too generous with diplomatic agreements. Fun game while it lasted though (taking Ireland with 1 Jinete and 3-4 militia units just as the Portuguese was about to get there was funny as hell )

Anyways, I looked around and installed Stainless Steel mod. Didn't get too far into the BGR component, though. Seems way too much way too vague and micro-heavy. I'm guessing it's for people who've played through the game many times and need something new, so, I'm not complaining. The rest of SS looks pretty decent though, even if it seems to hand out free traits like a madman.

One thing I don't get, however: I'm playing Portuguese now, and I start with a couple Mailed Knights... but I can't retrain any of them in any of my castles even if I build a stable? I know I didn't check that box to not disable certain units in some places, but this just seems silly to me. Really having a hard time getting any units because of the caps and lack of merc units in vanilla.

More generally though, I'm still having a really hard time getting cavalry to work properly. The wedge formation is useless, but even charging normally a lot of the times the lead cav will engage while the rest just kinda hang back and get shot to pieces. Then when the enemy (in this case an enemy Jinete) disengages, they just kinda sit there and let them get away. Even if I tell them to run in their direction they seem hopelessly lost. I'll crush an enemy ranged cav in a pincer move and kill their general, only to have 3 surviving horsemen nick me to death, because they're too small to chase down.

Even worse though is, though, is how they'll sometimes just sit in melee and NOT attack. At. All. For no reason, they'll let the enemy just slaughter them. Doesn't happen often, but it sucks when it does. Also, having to micro just to chase down a routing unit sucks. Big time.

Gonna leave it at that. Still really enjoying this game. Really surprised at how intuitive and fun it manages to be despite all the complexity and scope.

[Imperial Island]

About the knights thing, you'll need to wait till your castle increases in population, upgrade it and then build a better stable. It won't take long

The wedge formation IMO is useless

[Feckless]

That's kinda what I figured but that's really put a cramp on my early expansion. Although maybe that's just as well since I can't convert the Moors fast enough yet, and I have no transports to invade outlying rebel settlements (I have merc galleys, but 500+ upkeep? Ouch) Jinettes are awesome though so at least I'm better than some factions.

[Squid]

Merged duplicate threads.

[avion365]

if you are against enemy jav cav use archers, they are devastating against missile cavalry in a prolonged fight. second, use your knights in a 3 to 2 man thick formation, this inflict maximam damage on the charge but still has the thickness to fight, there are a dozen other thigs but i hope my 2 cents helps

[Feckless]

I wasn't aware you could even go with a formation with fewer lines than 2. I always drag it out to the max and that's what I end up getting. Still a lot of the times I'll wind up with knights just sitting back meters away from the fight for no good reason.

Now that you mention it though, is there anything special I should do to avoid oncoming fire during charge against missile troops? I tend to lose a lot against Jinetes. Is it a good idea to spread out (the button on the right, forget the name), or attack in a column to minimize exposure?

Thanks for getting rid of the other thread, stupid thing reposted when I hit the back button.

[avion365]

I wasn't aware you could even go with a formation with fewer lines than 2. I always drag it out to the max and that's what I end up getting. Still a lot of the times I'll wind up with knights just sitting back meters away from the fight for no good reason.

Now that you mention it though, is there anything special I should do to avoid oncoming fire during charge against missile troops? I tend to lose a lot against Jinetes. Is it a good idea to spread out (the button on the right, forget the name), or attack in a column to minimize exposure?

Thanks for getting rid of the other thread, stupid thing reposted when I hit the back button.

it is good to attack in a loose column when you are facing foot archers, but NEVER EVER use heavy or light against missile cavalry, use foot archers, it work like a rock paper gun game, foot archers kill mounted archers, mounted archers kill close-in units, and close-in units kill foot archers. yes i know 2 is the minimum thickness, but i use it a lot when i want huge casualties apon enemy inf. but i tend to use 3 deep when facing heavy inf. or cavalry.

[Feckless]

Ah, okay, thanks. Yeah, I don't like to use cav on cav if I can help it. Mostly though I find I can take out smaller rebel settlements a lot quicker if I just send in cavalry, and then have the garrison sortie out to get steamrolled. Foot units just kinda get in the way and makes it harder to lure them out.

Never thought to use archers to take down ranged cav, though. I always figured they'd miss a lot and so just focus on the closest spearmen group marching towards me. I'll try that.

[gamer025]

Missile cavalry is so annoying for the reason that they run when threatened. Especially in the case you've described. Avion365 suggested using archers to counter and that's a good idea. Also, I like to engage enemy cavalry with spearmen, and then flank with other cavalry, or other spears. Surrounding cavalry usually makes them unable to run away, and if they manage to break free, the are usually shocked enough to bail.

[shikaka]

Cavalry charge if a bit strange in M2.
There was a feature in Rome (instant charge from 2 meters) which annoyed a number of players, and the developers got rid of it.
Now cavalry needs some distance to properly gain speed.


However, for some reason, they stop the charge and change to swords when the enemy moves sideways or forward which is very-very annoying.
If you have troubles with this, use your cavalry for rear charges of already engaded enemies. (go behind them facing their backs, wait until your cavalry is 'idle' and right click once).

[Cebwethe]

Have you guys found that often cavalry can be dismissed altogether? I have had some incredibly successful games as HRE or Scotland with 0 cavalry, and smashed my way through to Jerusalem with little effort.

Infantry may be slow, but they are tough, don't drop like wheat to the scythe to a row of spearmen like cavalry do, and can, in heavier types, dismiss enemy arrows with little casualties.

I also have had success as Milan and Venice with all infantry armies, I really dislike their starting positions so I tend to avoid them in vanilla, but they can amass large, cheap, tough and dangerous armies without worrying about cavalry micromanagement.

[shikaka]

Have you guys found that often cavalry can be dismissed altogether? I have had some incredibly successful games as HRE or Scotland with 0 cavalry, and smashed my way through to Jerusalem with little effort.

Infantry may be slow, but they are tough, don't drop like wheat to the scythe to a row of spearmen like cavalry do, and can, in heavier types, dismiss enemy arrows with little casualties.

I also have had success as Milan and Venice with all infantry armies, I really dislike their starting positions so I tend to avoid them in vanilla, but they can amass large, cheap, tough and dangerous armies without worrying about cavalry micromanagement.

It is possible, but I very rarely play faction without some projectile cavalry (either HA or javelins), and there, you have to use them

[Ichon]

Anyways, I looked around and installed Stainless Steel mod. Didn't get too far into the BGR component, though. Seems way too much way too vague and micro-heavy. I'm guessing it's for people who've played through the game many times and need something new, so, I'm not complaining. The rest of SS looks pretty decent though, even if it seems to hand out free traits like a madman

You are basically correct though BGR does attempt to add a bit more 'realism' as if you are familiar with TW system most battles start to lose the challenge and when you get a serious of unchallenging battles that leads to boring campaigns. SS is good base to work on then with RC/RR added even better, then there are many other submods like BGR that add more or less depending on what you personally enjoy.

[Feckless]

Missile cavalry is so annoying for the reason that they run when threatened. Especially in the case you've described. Avion365 suggested using archers to counter and that's a good idea. Also, I like to engage enemy cavalry with spearmen, and then flank with other cavalry, or other spears. Surrounding cavalry usually makes them unable to run away, and if they manage to break free, the are usually shocked enough to bail.

Yes, I've noticed the AI seems to love charging at anything that moves, and be completely oblivious to other units moving in around it. It is almost ridiculous how easy it is to kill the enemy general this way. Lot harder to keep them bottled up when you only have horsies, however. Ah well.

[quote]

Cavalry charge if a bit strange in M2.
There was a feature in Rome (instant charge from 2 meters) which annoyed a number of players, and the developers got rid of it.
Now cavalry needs some distance to properly gain speed.

Hahaha, I can totally see what you mean by instant charge. I think I've seen some other game where the units act like that (Age of Empires, maybe?) For the most part though, the way the horses moves in this game is definitely one of my favourite parts about it. They seem to just flow fluidly from one manuever to the next, without too much unnecessary, or jerky movements. Both realistic and really fun to watch, without being difficult to control. The pursuit pathfinding and the way they fight in melee, though, not so great.

However, for some reason, they stop the charge and change to swords when the enemy moves sideways or forward which is very-very annoying.
If you have troubles with this, use your cavalry for rear charges of already engaded enemies. (go behind them facing their backs, wait until your cavalry is 'idle' and right click once).

That's what I've been doing. Charges definite seems to work a LOT better against stationary targets, especially from the rear, and they'll actually continue to move forward to engage once the charge is over due to the momentum. Charging into the flank... not so great.

I also have had success as Milan and Venice with all infantry armies, I really dislike their starting positions so I tend to avoid them in vanilla, but they can amass large, cheap, tough and dangerous armies without worrying about cavalry micromanagement.

I SO wanted to try this. but decided faster units were probably better strategically (and more fun), so went with Spain. Still, I love the idea being able to just ignore the enemy's gates during an assault and just storm up the walls, crushing everything that moves with Superior Infantry while their cavalry units watch.

You are basically correct though BGR does attempt to add a bit more 'realism' as if you are familiar with TW system most battles start to lose the challenge and when you get a serious of unchallenging battles that leads to boring campaigns. SS is good base to work on then with RC/RR added even better, then there are many other submods like BGR that add more or less depending on what you personally enjoy.

I don't really have a problem with the idea behind BGR. In fact, it looked like it had a lot of things that I would love to see. It just seemed like they tried to cram a lot into a somewhat limited system. It's pretty annoying to have to scroll through the already bloated traits list just to find how all my nobles are doing, how much forage is available in a given territory, etc. I'll probably like it more once I get used to basic SS tho. Right now it's just too much at once.

[avion365]

here is a good Spanish army, around, 8 sword militia, 4 peasant crossbowman and 4 jav cav along with a general plus any heavy cav you want. i used this to great affect against the moors and france

[Feckless]

How do you increase chivalry in SS? Building chapels no longer work? And neither does winning a fair fight? My King Henrique's already at 2 Dread, and it's just from 1 battle he didn't even start.

... Holy crap I'm making 5k florins a turn. How'd that happen?

EDIT: When do units start merging by themselves? Just found out one of my mailed knights went and shacked up with the other in my stack. They were both pretty low in numbers (single digits!), so I'm guessing that's why. Now I not only am I down to 1 heavy cav unit, but I'm guessing they don't keep the extra exp from the disbanded unit either?

[Biowulf]

EDIT: When do units start merging by themselves? Just found out one of my mailed knights went and shacked up with the other in my stack. They were both pretty low in numbers (single digits!), so I'm guessing that's why. Now I not only am I down to 1 heavy cav unit, but I'm guessing they don't keep the extra exp from the disbanded unit either?

That's always happened from my own experience. It happens in RTW, too. If a unit goes down to a certain amount in a single battle and another unit has low numbers they will merge automatically after you get back to the campaign map. And it doesn't matter if it's Vanilla or mods, it will always happen.

[Ishan]

Ask SS related here you will get better answers there.