Pikes too powerful

[Birk]

This isn't a big problem. But I've noticed that rebel Flemish and Swiss pikes in early era are insanely strong even when surrounded and they don't panic. I'm using large unit scale and the flemish pikes wouldn't panic before they reach 20-30 men left even they were surrounded and their captain was killed. They also wounded and killed 50% of my stacks of soldiers that surrounded them. I'm just wondering if its possible to give infantry some sort of attack bonus hitting pikes? Its kinda weird that pikes still do a hell lot of damage even when my soldiers have surrounded them and are hitting with swords plus the pikes have broken their formation.

Sorry about bad pic. But look at the yellow circles might give you an idea how powerfully Flemish pikes are. I surrounded them with spear militia.


Three stacks with Swiss pikes in action. What?!? I killed their General and still they don't worry even when they've four men left?



Just look at my stacks with maceman gets their arse kicked.

[Ichon]

Swiss are quite elite pikemen. About the best melee infantry in SS. Actually your army had relatively low tier units so it is not surprising the losses. Some better infantries survive more but only a few infantry capable of beating Swiss in 1 vs 1 fights or anything close. You might had better luck some of your own pikes or spears in guard mode engage front of Swiss while crossbow or other missiles hit Swiss in the back.

Surrounding on all sides bring more of your men into melee where Swiss will win. You can even charge rear of Swiss for relatively few losses with your general if you turn and run away again fast and probably be ok. Just don't charge the front with early era BG armor. I've been able on large units to kill 15-30 Swiss per charge by general before having to stop as general lost 90% of his BG but basically in 3-4 charges Swiss are almost done if you get good charge with full strength general.

[arcsquad12]

I like the super pikes. They give Scotland a chance against cavalry heavy armies. And cavalry is scary enough in SS.

[Point Blank]

Swiss pikemen have lock_morale. They are extremely tough, but not as tough as Armoured Swiss Pikemen

[Spartan90]

I surrounded them with spear militia.

Well there's your problem!

Also, if you're playing on anything above M/M, the enemy will get a huge morale boost equivalent to the difficulty rating. Oh, plus Pikemen already have high morale due to them always needing a close-knit formation.

Just don't enter into melee with them. Use their disadvantages against them. Number one, they are super slow. Adding to this, they don't have shields. This is pretty much the perfect recipe to completely annihilate them with crossbowmen. One unit of crossbowmen vs one unit of Swiss Pikes = you will make them rout before they even reach you.

Another thing to do is put your infantry in guard mode. You're not trying to kill them, just tangle them up. When they engage your guarding men, it's as simple as peppering them in the back with your crossbowmen, or charging with cavalry. One direct charge into their back will make them rout within seconds, or at least slaughter a good 50-70%. Rinse and repeat.

[JorisofHolland]

Well there's your problem!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Also, if you're playing on anything above M/M, the enemy will get a huge morale boost equivalent to the difficulty rating. Oh, plus Pikemen already have high morale due to them always needing a close-knit formation.

Just don't enter into melee with them. Use their disadvantages against them. Number one, they are super slow. Adding to this, they don't have shields. This is pretty much the perfect recipe to completely annihilate them with crossbowmen. One unit of crossbowmen vs one unit of Swiss Pikes = you will make them rout before they even reach you.

Swiss have lock_morale, meaning they can't route. Not sure about the Flemish though, but I think archers will also do well against early game pikemen.

Another thing to do is put your infantry in guard mode. You're not trying to kill them, just tangle them up. When they engage your guarding men, it's as simple as peppering them in the back with your crossbowmen, or charging with cavalry. One direct charge into their back will make them rout within seconds, or at least slaughter a good 50-70%. Rinse and repeat.

But if they notice your cavalry, the back row will turn to face them, resulting in dead horses and a very confident and proud unit of pikemen.

[Ichon]

But if they notice your cavalry, the back row will turn to face them, resulting in dead horses and a very confident and proud unit of pikemen.

Funny pic there.

Well that is why it is important to engage the Swiss in front first and after charge run away fast before too many of them turn. If you stay a bit you get more kills but then when you turn your cavalry to run away the Swiss get lots more kills on you. If you hit and turn away instant you lose a few cavalry but not too many. I usually do something like- 1 unit engage Swiss, charge/retreat cavalry, 2nd infantry engage front/side of Swiss to gain attention, charge/retreat cavalry, 3rd unit engage and final charge/retreat cavalry then each charge even with fast disengage your cavalry probably losses a few but Swiss lost more and let the infantry finish their now much reduced numbers.

[hellexpress]

u are using low tiers spear against swiss pikemen, its like using low tier light infantry against Byz bodyguards

the swiss pikemen can't run, just bring ur xbow/bow
4 xbow units can own 10 pikemen units without difficulty
just use range unit kites them around the battle

[Paladin94610]

Use crossbows and HAs. They make mincemeat of pikes. When you have numbers in melee infantry (spear militia)just order them to go pass through the pikewall. The soldiers will use their mass to push and make way through pikes. Once the pikes goes out of formation order them to fight again. Even when they are pushing some units will attack automatically. I agree with Swiss Armored Pikemen would hold a street fight forever. Once in 6.1, I lost about 300 men to 47 Flemish Pikemen in a siege against Antwerp, County of Flanders.

[JorisofHolland]

Funny pic there.

Well that is why it is important to engage the Swiss in front first and after charge run away fast before too many of them turn. If you stay a bit you get more kills but then when you turn your cavalry to run away the Swiss get lots more kills on you. If you hit and turn away instant you lose a few cavalry but not too many. I usually do something like- 1 unit engage Swiss, charge/retreat cavalry, 2nd infantry engage front/side of Swiss to gain attention, charge/retreat cavalry, 3rd unit engage and final charge/retreat cavalry then each charge even with fast disengage your cavalry probably losses a few but Swiss lost more and let the infantry finish their now much reduced numbers.

You don't get it. As long as the back row of the pikemen is unengaged, they will turn on your cavalry before the charge, unless you're a lucky guy.

[Ichon]

You don't get it. As long as the back row of the pikemen is unengaged, they will turn on your cavalry before the charge, unless you're a lucky guy.

They must turn slow or something then or if they are engaged partly on the side they don't because I've done this several times in early era against rebel pikes and not had anything bad happen. Charging the front is different story in early era. Later era BG and some HC can do it frontally but the couple times I tried with early BG lost most of the BG and once general on impact.

[midget_roxx]

I would be raging so hard if that happened to me :p. Probably should've sent in your general into the rear of the pikemen and killed heaps that awy

[Birk]

I would be raging so hard if that happened to me :p. Probably should've sent in your general into the rear of the pikemen and killed heaps that awy

Well I just merged the maceman and hired new ones on the road to Milan and I had some units in backup if needed. My general is a bloodline general which I won't risk. Last time i've used my BG and smashed in the flemish soldiers back I've lost 30-40% of my BGs. All i did was charge/retreat.

I don't have many bloodlines left or family members.

[Point Blank]

These are the latest RC animation files, they make significant changes to how pikes fight (as well as some other updates). I don't know if they are compatible with 6.3 or not, they probably are.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=42XKJ9X0

Before using, back up your data/animation folder and data/descr_skeleton file. Then extract the download to the data folder.

Following this step, make a backup of the data/export_descr_units file, then go through data/export_descr_units and manually change all the pikemen defense values to half their present values, and round fractions down.

eg:
stat_pri_armour 4, 2, 0, flesh => stat_pri_armour 4, 1, 0, flesh

stat_pri_armour 4, 3, 0, leather=> stat_pri_armour 4, 1, 0, leather

stat_pri_armour 11, 1, 0, metal=> stat_pri_armour 11, 0, 0, metal

Yes defense values can be zero.

These changes combined with the new anims make pikes about right balance-wise.

[Birk]

These are the latest RC animation files, they make significant changes to how pikes fight (as well as some other updates). I don't know if they are compatible with 6.3 or not, they probably are.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=42XKJ9X0

Before using, back up your data/animation folder and data/descr_skeleton file. Then extract the download to the data folder.

Following this step, make a backup of the data/export_descr_units file, then go through data/export_descr_units and manually change all the pikemen defense values to half their present values, and round fractions down.

eg:
stat_pri_armour 4, 2, 0, flesh => stat_pri_armour 4, 1, 0, flesh

stat_pri_armour 4, 3, 0, leather=> stat_pri_armour 4, 1, 0, leather

stat_pri_armour 11, 1, 0, metal=> stat_pri_armour 11, 0, 0, metal

Yes defense values can be zero.

These changes combined with the new anims make pikes about right balance-wise.

Great I will try that.

[beckyolt]

Swiss Pikes in a disciplined formation were really strong.

And they don't flee because they didn't in real life. Swiss mercenaries were extremly disciplined. They were forbidden to retreat if not ordered to - they would strangle the fleeing pikemen! I saw that in Age of Empires 3.

[Moritol]

As enemies I prefer pikes to any cavalry... finally a good target for my ribaults.

Just remember to hire some merc crossbowmen the next time. That is why they are there for.

[hippacrocafish]

You can cut them to ribbons with simple peasant crossbowmen. :/

Bring a GB unit to act as a lure and just wali on them with crosbow bolts.

[Lord Humungus]

Even the cheapest crossbows and javelins are devastating against pikes.
Once I had to assault Flanders with ladders while walls were defended by flemish pikemen...and I had only spear militia. Now THAT was a nightmare.

[JorisofHolland]

Yeah, it's better to just starve them out and have them sally. In the open your spears at least stand a change against the onslaught, if well supported and well used.