Lo and behold - the Seljuk superninja

[cezarip]

Meneth's Compilation 3.3, 2 TPY and Lusted AI

I was kicking some Seljuk behind with my Romans and got in couple of battles where I was facing some Turkish Horse Archers.
Lured them out of the troops and charged them with one unit of Armenian Heavy Cavalry. To my surprise they almost got wiped out. I had to charge them with 2 Family Members to wipe them out. Surprisingly hard to kill considering they had no chevrons (they had 1st level of armor). Even in hand to hand melee with 3 units of heavy cavalry they killed a lot of my knights.

Ok, the charge of my units did not take but they proved damn hard to kill. I had it happen at least three times.
And they killed about 3/4 of the Armenian dudes plus about 4-5 bodyguards for each FM. Unbelievable. I don't think they ever stopped shooting and I was kind of praying not to loose my general.

Super duper horse archers! The year is only 1120 and I definitely did not mistaken them for Fari.

[Meneth]

You should have crushed them easily, as they have mediocre melee, and next to no armor.

Also, it's called the (Sub-mod) Compilation. The Compendium is the FAQ thread.

[cezarip]

Yeah, I know. They should drop like flies. No idea why they are so powerful. However, I have seen the same behavior more than once. They don't want to die. And instead of engaging in melee, they keep shooting their bows. And at the close range it's deadly!

[Gogolometro]

That must make you happy not sad. A easy battle is boring. Plus, like this I act when I play myself them. So is good.
One thing must be understand, armenian cavalry look cool, near normand/latinikon cavalry look, but in factare bad, similar or even worse than mercs frankish dudes. So, dont bet on them. In melee, without a armored horse, when people turn their direction, stops, expose a lot of vulnerabile spots. When I play turkish horse archers, and I have so much of them and is hard to micromanage, I check were are enganged in melee, I desactivate the skirmish mode, move them manually, and keep shooting. Ussual melee cavalry engage 1-2 horsemans, if they die, the rest keep doing their stuff.
Recomandation, never use a medium armored/horse/speed cavalry, versus a good horse archer. For them was invented toxotai and murtadoi!
If you use HA, use numbers, focus fire, and never underestimate the AI bonus get via difficulty settings.
And if you are roman/byzantine, keep in mind, I lose many horse archers trying to kill some scutatoi speramans. Look very wierd, but charged or not, fired from behind, scutati are very resilient to HA. Add to that archers. Wanna charge, use light cavalry or very heavy ones. Lose one general? No problem, will get other and will train him again. Better die in battle than defecting or getting a bad trait.

[k/t]

That's weird, because normally they die if you sneeze on them.

[Cyprexinia]

I've had mailed knights from a rebel kill my two gold chevron feudal knights, and that's after I charged them and killed half their men.

[Madden]

double click behind them to force the back rows into melee

I use that trick a lot when fighting HA or any unit that shoots while fighting

[Bosje]

i am noticing this all around, fari cavalry, arab cavalry, desert cavalry, hippocritae (sp?- mounted acritae)

they all kill my knights and bodyguards a lot better than they used to in previous versions
it's NOT something to be happy about: yes they make battles harder but the whole idea is that my western heavy cavalry should be vulnerable to the ranged attacks, once we get up close and personal, we should have the advantage imo.

I'm suspecting some sort of thing working in the background which makes my cavalry weaker in melee. ME bodyguards were always strong but recently i had to watch a Roman general kill 15 of my bodyguards plus 50 of my 60 mailed knights, which annoyed me hugely. I charged him repeatedly which took out most of his bodyguards but then the lone general singlehandedly killed almost all my remaining knights. screw that

ranged and melee infantry are perfectly balanced in think. but i am not getting desirable results with cavalry melee. It's all the AI cav, not just seljuk HA
I recently defended Ragusa against a large but low-quality Roman stack. We killed em on the walls and we killed em at the gates, all his infantry eventually routed because they suffered crossbow bolts in the face from the right flank, at point blank range. All was well and then the Roman general walked in. his 14 guards took 20(!) crossbow volleys in the face while fighting my hardened italian spear militia. I was sitting back and waiting for the victory but a few minutes later the general and his 14 guards were all still standing, all my spearmen had died, he was now engaging my unprotected crossbowmen who all dropped like flies, i charged in my general and all my remaining infantry from the walls, and things got really hairy

in the end i won the battle but i really don't need to lose almost my enitre veteran army, just because an AI general is boosted beyond belief. i cheated myself one unit of stake-laying mercs for the next battles as a result. it's just too silly

sorry if i sound like a rant but ranged cavalry kills quite enough of my guys as it is, once i engage them in melee i want a fair fight, dammit

[cezarip]

I have really terrifying experiences with Seljuk and Fatimid bodyguards. They are killing machines. The worst was when I (romans) lost 2 generals in hand to hand combat with one Seljuk bodyguard. The AI boost is sometimes ridiculous. After wiping out 35 bodyguards (against about 18) he proceeded to kill two units of Toxotai. Fortunately I had 1 spare Acritae...
Since then, I always bring two extra Mounted Acritae as dedicated general killers.

But cavalry melee with ranged cavalry is my nightmare since the only chance to catch Horse Archers is with other cavalry unit.

[vtec.dominion]

I have really terrifying experiences with Seljuk and Fatimid bodyguards. They are killing machines. The worst was when I (romans) lost 2 generals in hand to hand combat with one Seljuk bodyguard. The AI boost is sometimes ridiculous. After wiping out 35 bodyguards (against about 18) he proceeded to kill two units of Toxotai. Fortunately I had 1 spare Acritae...
Since then, I always bring two extra Mounted Acritae as dedicated general killers.

But cavalry melee with ranged cavalry is my nightmare since the only chance to catch Horse Archers is with other cavalry unit.

Seems it work in both directions. Im playing with Turks usually (one of my favs) and ERE bodyguards are simply the tanks of medieval age. I won't attack them with my BG unit unless they are exhausted or seriously weakened.
Best way i found is to pin them with infantry (Saracen Militia is enough) and let the javelinmens hurl. Even Fari cavalry can't get them down fast enough.

[Lord Humungus]

Always thought I'm just paranoid, but it seems I'm not the only one noticed.
Something weird is going on with AI cavalry. They certainly get some stat boost, but it feels that some get more than other.
Most dangerous by far is arab cavalry. They don't look like threat at all, simple mediocre unit. But my god are they tough! Huge unit size + good speed. Add AI boost and you get arab version of lancers. No, seriously, whenever I try to catch them with heavy cavalry I always regret later. They murder almost everything you throw at them - feudal knights, bodyguards, Frankish knights, Armenian cavalry, hospitaliers.
When I try using arab cavalry like this - they die like flies.

[vtec.dominion]

Always thought I'm just paranoid, but it seems I'm not the only one noticed.
Something weird is going on with AI cavalry. They certainly get some stat boost, but it feels that some get more than other.
Most dangerous by far is arab cavalry. They don't look like threat at all, simple mediocre unit. But my god are they tough! Huge unit size + good speed. Add AI boost and you get arab version of lancers. No, seriously, whenever I try to catch them with heavy cavalry I always regret later. They murder almost everything you throw at them - feudal knights, bodyguards, Frankish knights, Armenian cavalry, hospitaliers.
When I try using arab cavalry like this - they die like flies.

Its a waste to chase fast arab cavalry with heavy cav., espacially in eastern regions where you get some serious penalties (due to heat and terrain issues).
I bet once you catch them your riders are exhausted already.
Better hire some horse archers and shoot them down before the proper strike.

[Lord Humungus]

Its a waste to chase fast arab cavalry with heavy cav., espacially in eastern regions where you get some serious penalties (due to heat and terrain issues).
I bet once you catch them your riders are exhausted already.
Better hire some horse archers and shoot them down before the proper strike.

Yeah, exhaustion could be one of factors, but 90% of the time you don't even need to chase AI arab cavalry - they charge right on.

[k/t]

Strange, I destroyed Arab Cavalry with Stratiotai. Those guys are on the heavy end of light cavalry. They're also 80 instead of 60, they start with 4 armour and get 3 upgrades, fast moving, better stats, I believe... Light cavalry with 10 armour in the end... Western light cavalry (Mounted Sergeants) are 60 and with 3 upgrades have 6 armour...

I don't see why Arab Cavalry would try to run away from a fight. They're melee cavalry. I let them charge my cavalry and move it aside so their charge doesn't connect, then I turn around and engage them, and hit them in the back with another cavalry corps. Works great.

Ippoakritai slaughter all bodyguards.

[Bosje]

that's interesting k/t, i guess if you micromanage and time everything perfectly you can get some of the bonusses going your way

but when i fought a battle with my genoese cavalry army (2 hospitaller knights and 4 militia cav) against a nice big allround Moor stack...

my cav walked away, they moved archers and crossbows up front, my militia cav charged and killed many ranged units, retreated again back to the rest of my knights, his cav followed in persuit and was faster

so i thought: his archers are out, his cav is chasing my cav back to the full power of my knights, we'll fight that fight and then i'm free to charge, disengage, charge, disengage, rinse and repeat until all his army is dead

that was the plan, his arab cav caught up with my militia cav and we engaged in melee while my knights charged in from a good run-up distance

my 4 militia cav plus 2 hospitaller knights against 2 arab cav... we won but only just, most of my cav was dead.

i won the rest of the battle just fine, i had great charge bonusses against an exhausted all-infantry army and that was enough, it was still a heroic victory but i was just freaked out to see 2 arab cav units take down most of my 6 cavalry units including hospitaller knights, what the hell?

[Gogolometro]

Merchant cavalry militia are catastrofic in melee, just 1 atack. So never bet them in close combat.

[k/t]

The Italian Cavalry Militia only have 1 attack for the lance, which gets a 14 charge bonus. They have a 5/6 sword as a secondary weapon.

[cezarip]

Note to self: DO NOT chase Mamluk Archers with cavalry. Any cavalry! In fact, do not chase them at all...Let them come at you and bring heavy armored infantry units...

[k/t]

Because the skirmish function works poorly in the game, you can catch them pretty easily. I beat them with Mounted Sergeants and Mailed Knights. In another battle, they shot at me for a while, then they charged, even though they still had arrows left.