Question on rebel factions.

[RollingWave]

I think using a new thread for this is appropriate, although it has a lot to deal with modding it's not a submod in itself but rather a larger general quesiton that'll probably concern other potential modders and also the general players.

So here's the thing...


As I'm editing through the EDB I realized that almost nothing can actually be built by slaves, aka rebels. part of the problem of course is that slaves control region all over the map and thus if you don't have careful entries of AOR on units concerning them (meaning that most of their entries will need to be independent) they'll build things way out of the places they're suppose to, like a knight in the stepps or a viking in the desert or... well you get the idea.

But I wonder if this has much to do with the general inactivity of rebels? because they can't actually build more units they'll very quickly be overmatched by player or AI faction in terms of troops number , and even if the AI / player choose the leave a very lightly defended garrison right next to them they really don't have much troops to take advantage anyway.

So I wonder, has anyone else experimented on this? what if I write in the EDB entires neccesary for rebels to build troops like they're suppose to in the selected region? what impact will this have on the game? or do they just bankrupt themself so quickly that it wouldn't matter anyway? (but that could be helped with king's purse no?)

[Silver Legionary]

Would the troops the Rebels can recruit be dependent on the region where the
recruitment is occurring, a.k.a. will you have AoR entries for the Rebels to be able
to recruit certain units in certain areas?

[Ishan]

Adding the units in EDB is not a good idea as then they will recruit units(having ownership) every and anywhere.
But by default we know when a region revolts then the units generated for rebels are regional units mentioned in the descr_rebel_factions.txt.
In this case you can try increasing the kings purse and setup some scripts for them.

[RollingWave]

Would the troops the Rebels can recruit be dependent on the region where the
recruitment is occurring, a.k.a. will you have AoR entries for the Rebels to be able
to recruit certain units in certain areas?

Adding the units in EDB is not a good idea as then they will recruit units(having ownership) every and anywhere.
But by default we know when a region revolts then the units generated for rebels are regional units mentioned in the descr_rebel_factions.txt.
In this case you can try increasing the kings purse and setup some scripts for them.

yes, obviously the entries will be AOR based, which means that for most of them the rebels will need seperate entries so they won't get nutty units way out of the area.

for example for fedual units you'll have entires like...

Iqta'dar -> and hidden_resource egypt / moors / andalusia / turks / kwarezm

Feudal Knights -> and hidden_resource england / france / scotland / hre / milan / venice / papal_states / sicily / hungary / spain / aragon / portugal

Boyars -> and hidden_resource russia / kievan_rus

Lithuanian Nobles -> and hidden_resource Lithuania

Dismounted Huscarls -> and hidden_resource Denmark / Norway

something like that. obviously units that were already AOR is easier to do, but non AOR units would require seperate entries.

[Point Blank]

Rebels can recruit all Locals, which are AOR, at castles, that probably made it into 6.3. Otherwise I considered adding a more detailed system for them to RR, but as you have discussed its a lot of work.

[Meneth]

@PB: Yup, AoR is in 6.3.

[RollingWave]

yeah but looking in the EDB the AOR units includes only.... (i'll just use the Iberian region to demonstrate the issue)

Granadine Jinetes
Granadine Crossbowmens
Basque archers
Alforate
Javelinmen
Lusitinian Javelinmen

that's pretty much the entire list.... 5 units... and one of them don't appear until later.

So I guess I'll try to tackle this issue a bit.. I'm already opening up the AOR to a lot more units anyway so the process is easier.

[Gorrrrrn]

Rebels can recruit anything that is in that region's settlement browser - if they have enough money.
like every faction what they build will partially be dependent on the strategic situation, their CAI etc.
as they are a purely defensive faction (usually) they'll not be needing offensive weapons (artillery mainly)
(but it would help if they had ownership so we could give rebel armies siege artillery.)

one of the biggest problems they have is that their population tends to stall before they can upgrade their settlements very far.
usually they lack govenors and as they don't have to worry about public order or religious disorder their garrisons tend to be minimal so get no benefit there.
so they end up - if they have money with - plenty of low level units.

would help if they had ownership of all bodyguard units (for several reasons) - at least we could put proper bodyguard units in the rebel factions unit lists
so they could get govenors more often, even recruit mercs.

we can keep rebel garrisons in situ using descr_campaign_db.xml so they have a full garrison by changing what turn they stay put until.

money is no problem - I managed to have rebel faction with over 1M fl in one test before I cut their K-P (and K-P bonus) back to a more reasonable amount.

[RollingWave]

Rebels can recruit anything that is in that region's settlement browser - if they have enough money.
like every faction what they build will partially be dependent on the strategic situation, their CAI etc.
as they are a purely defensive faction (usually) they'll not be needing offensive weapons (artillery mainly)
(but it would help if they had ownership so we could give rebel armies siege artillery.)

one of the biggest problems they have is that their population tends to stall before they can upgrade their settlements very far.
usually they lack govenors and as they don't have to worry about public order or religious disorder their garrisons tend to be minimal so get no benefit there.
so they end up - if they have money with - plenty of low level units.

would help if they had ownership of all bodyguard units (for several reasons) - at least we could put proper bodyguard units in the rebel factions unit lists
so they could get govenors more often, even recruit mercs.

we can keep rebel garrisons in situ using descr_campaign_db.xml so they have a full garrison by changing what turn they stay put until.

money is no problem - I managed to have rebel faction with over 1M fl in one test before I cut their K-P (and K-P bonus) back to a more reasonable amount.

by body guard units, do you mean actual body guard units? like me bodyguard ? or just higher end units like knights will do? I suppose making body guard buildable (through something like walls and castles) at a very low rate for slaves could work... but do bodyguards really help that much with rebel generals? I've seen a lot of rebel generals in lower level units as well?

I'm not certain about this, but don't generals spawn in accordance to how many settlements you own? but for the rebels the problem is that often the generals end up in spawned groups roaming random places instead of in settlements...

I don't really know anything about how AI works, but if we could make rebel groups more active aka spawned group will move from province to province until it either finds something it can attack or finds another rebel settlements and/or group or something, then it would work a lot better... unrealistic sure.. but lets face it they need all the help they can get

[Gorrrrrn]

currently - depending I expect on how modified your EDU is, slave only have ownership of:
NE Bodyguard
EE Bodyguard

which means (AFAIK) those are the only ones we can have proper in game textures for?

if we could at lest add SE and ME Bodyguard we could let most regions get them as part of rebel armies that spawn.
(they wouldn't appear every time of course, but allows the option.)
I wouldn't make them recruitable for slaves - it's unlikely they could afford them or build the necessary structures.

if they are part of the rebel faction army spawn they'd spawn at the same rate as other units?
we'd need to change the Campaign AI to make them more aggressive - that may differ between the various CAI's on offer.

[RollingWave]

hmmm, texture easy to fix and at worst you get silvery guys with no texture, but if the descr_rebel_faction doesn't have body guards built into them (which as far as i've seen they don't) .

As for price, bodyguards actually don't cost much in the EDU.. since you can't actually build them anyway

[Gorrrrrn]

As for price, bodyguards actually don't cost much in the EDU.. since you can't actually build them anyway

shhh - some bright spark is bound to read that and make a sub-mod doing precisely that

[Meneth]

Hmm? Someone mentioned making a sub-mod?
Nah, don't have any interest in making a sub-mod that enables the recruitment of generals. Currently at least.

[k/t]

I think there already is, since there were several threads about recruitable bodyguards.

Links I've saved:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=333320
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=336462
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=348140
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=391247

[Meneth]

No sub-mods of it have been made for 6.3.

[Gorrrrrn]

another point on what units rebels can build etc.
had a look in hotseat on other matters - found some rebel settlements couldn't recruit anything
presumably because public order was so bad?
(they suffer greatly from distance to capital penalties early in game on top of everything else.)

[gornison]

they suffer greatly from distance to capital penalties early in game on top of everything else.)

Where is rebel capital then?

[JorisofHolland]

The top settlement in descr_strat, unless it is captured, of course.

[gornison]

The top settlement in descr_strat, unless it is captured, of course.

Sounds reasonable

Thanks

[Meneth]

They probably switch to whatever settlement will give them the lowest corruption. Most factions does so at the start.