Archer efficiency

[jinandjuice]

Hi all, I first started playing this mod a month ago, and I realized that most archers, light or heavy, have the same range, attack, and ammunition; even the less accurate, ergo, less powerful horse archers follow the rule. There are very few exceptions to this case (e.g. the utterly useless Toxotai). This brought a general trend of hiring the cheapest, lightest archers, as everyone has the same attack, making costlier, heavier archers with fewer men per unit cost inefficient. I was wondering if nearly everybody having the same training and bows were historically accurate, and that why in the world do the Romans not have the technology of bigger quivers.

[wudang_clown]

The whole difference is in accuracy. Better trained units have better accuracy, thus are more deadly.

Actually, professional archers weren't using magically stronger bows and deadlier arrows - materials were pretty the same, no matter who used them.

[jinandjuice]

Right, this is true, and as you said, training made some archers more efficient than others, so I assume this would be reflected in an increase in attack, as there is no accuracy variable in the Total War engine (unless I am very very wrong).

[wudang_clown]

Yes, it is.

Accuracy of arrows and other projectiles is managed via descr_projectile.txt.

[jinandjuice]

wwwwwwHHHAAAAT.
MY MIND. IS BLOWN. Alright, I'm checking the file right now, and it seems that, compared to the RTW file, which lists the basic trajectory variables of each type of missile (not of each unit), the file for BC is MUCH longer. However, it seems that it's only due to more types of missiles (e.g. ribault, crossbow), and does not encompass the "training" of each individual unit in the game. How does this work?
Also, if you don't mind me asking, does this file also manage the cohesion of volley fire? Because I noticed that missiles in M2TW are much less cohesive than RTW units in terms of firing together, and was wondering if this file is the cause of it.
And finally, going back to the game, how are we supposed to tell if Qara-Ghulam Bowmen are more accurate than Nubian Archers to what degree? Since the only difference I see between them is defense and melee attack (which is unimportant in regards to archery units), how can I accurately determine the efficiency of each missile unit?
Whew, sorry for so many questions!

[wudang_clown]

wwwwwwHHHAAAAT.
MY MIND. IS BLOWN. Alright, I'm checking the file right now, and it seems that, compared to the RTW file, which lists the basic trajectory variables of each type of missile (not of each unit), the file for BC is MUCH longer. However, it seems that it's only due to more types of missiles (e.g. ribault, crossbow), and does not encompass the "training" of each individual unit in the game. How does this work?

I'm not sure but I think more training = better accuracy (e.g. "arrow_ha_uh - ha ultra high accuracy arrow"). There is a header "Projectiles for BC" in that file, check it, please.

Also, if you don't mind me asking, does this file also manage the cohesion of volley fire? Because I noticed that missiles in M2TW are much less cohesive than RTW units in terms of firing together, and was wondering if this file is the cause of it.

I don't know that.

And finally, going back to the game, how are we supposed to tell if Qara-Ghulam Bowmen are more accurate than Nubian Archers to what degree? Since the only difference I see between them is defense and melee attack (which is unimportant in regards to archery units), how can I accurately determine the efficiency of each missile unit?

Well, more training = better accuracy = more money invested into training = higher recruitment and upkeep costs.

[jinandjuice]

wow. thanks a lot for the answers. +rep!

[Neige]

Since the only difference I see between them is defense and melee attack (which is unimportant in regards to archery units)

You can't rule out archers being employed as infantry. Some of the heavier archer units are among the best melee fighters. In BC units have many options and ways how to use them. After playing quite a lot with ranged units and understanding how they work I've come to really enjoy this realistic system.

[trollface]

Foot archers get a raw deal in BC... their ranged attack is as strong as horse archers BUT they have far fewer arrows for some reason Certain archers have more arrows for instance the hindu longbowmen have plenty in comparison. Also high quality horse archers only have a few arrows. The light horse archers have the most whilst elite units only have a few... lame hybrid units meh. Hopefully foot archers will get alot more arrows in 3.0

[Borgoroth]

I usually put none or little weight as to what accuracy or damage an archer unit has, especially when it comes to HA. The most effective way to use archer units, especially HA, is not to have them just shoot arrows, but as harrassers where I charge/shoot arrows in combination, the actually damage from the arrows is ofcourse a factor, but what makes them usefull is that they charge, killing many and before the enemy can recover from the attack they are met with rains of arrows keeping their morale in a constant downfall.

[trollface]

horse archers are pretty badass... second to the heavy lancer (the gods of BC) but still more than capable of destroying most armies with minimal casualties. When I recruit a horse archer I want it to do what it says on the tin aka shoot lots of arrows. I don't want them to run out in ten seconds and be a crappy lancer alternative as their charges suck.

[Iguanaonastick]

From what I can tell, elite archers' lack of arrows has been largely resolved in the new EDU.

I haven't used many foot archers in the new EDU yet, (more crossbowmen) but I'm hoping they'll have an advantage over horse-archers as they seem to have had historically. (More stable platform to shoot from, namely the ground, resulting in better accuracy and possibly longer range. They can also use bigger bows though that won't always be a factor.) One thing that has changed is that in the new EDU horse archer units are smaller so foot archers can throw out comparatively larger volumes of arrows. That helps.

[VINC.XXIII]

The Elite archers had the best and hard bows(100 or 120 livres of power or more). The hunters(so the archers levies) had bow of 30 to 60 livres maybe some more. War bows and hunter's bows are different by the power of tension.
The Toxotai for example don't have the same skills and the same bows than a Gholam or any steppe archer.
Each archer can't shoot with a 120 livres composite bow, its very hard. Its a training of every day, since the childhood. And that need to know the usage of the thumb ring. The greek archers(Romans also) don't have this knowledge. At contrary, all people coming from East(Turcs, Magyars, Mongols, Iranians, Coreans...) have this special thumb ring.
The Romans and Greeks had a sort of glove, less efficient than this ring...

[nurhak]

that ring is amazing, btw just love to hear the sound when he releases it

[VINC.XXIII]

exactly, he have a magyar bow(he is turk, yes), I think, but the modern bows are limited to 60 livres for the commercial series. After 60 livres, its custom-made.
Anyway, I think that the Elite archers's attack should be increased to 9.
Jotchi-Khassar, a Chinggis-Kayan's brothers(and certainly one of the best archers) had a bow of 150 livres. But he was one of the best. The average for the elite archers was 120 livres.

[nurhak]

exactly, he have a magyar bow(he is turk, yes), I think, but the modern bows are limited to 60 livres for the commercial series. After 60 livres, its custom-made.
Anyway, I think that the Elite archers's attack should be increased to 9.
Jotchi-Khassar, a Chinggis-Kayan's brothers(and certainly one of the best archers) had a bow of 150 livres. But he was one of the best. The average for the elite archers was 120 livres.

it isnt a magyar bow , sure its almost the same but this is a late ottoman model

[Maturin y Domanova]

The pull on the bow doesn't matter if you're lobbing arrows at people. Then it's mostly gravity anyway.

[Borgoroth]

Sure but lobbing arrows is equal to fighting with spoons imo

[VINC.XXIII]

http://www.nomadbows.com/index_m.htm
the hungarian Grozer and others made imitation of many composite bows. Today, many peoples who pratice the traditional archery use this hungarian bows. Same the turks...
But I don't know all the turk artisans.
http://www.turkishculture.org/milita...art-ii-756.htm
Nurhak, you know a site where buy ottoman bows, made by turc artisans?

[nurhak]

i had a link long time ago cant find it now, i think im gonna contact the guys from tirendaz
im gonna buy one i think if can find these turkish craftsman
http://www.tirendaz.com/tr/