Advice on fighting the Fatimids

[merocaine]

Hi All,

I'm having real problems in battle against the Fatimids.

I'm playing as the HRE, and am finding it really difficult to kill Fatimid armies without losing half my army.

The main problem is there axe armed Tabardariyya troops. Those guys are really hard to kill, and there are lots of them.

Against almost any other faction my heavy troops, Foot knights, halbard milita, men at arms, imperial knights, zwei handers (totally useless vs the Tabardariyya) ect kick ass.

But against the Tabardariyya this doesent happen, the Tabardariyya are man for man are Superior and plentiful.

My Archers and crossbows bounce off them, there Armour is quite effective against anything other than

gunpowder, this means its hard to wear them down before contact.

Those guys are lethal against cavalry too, as I discovered to my cost, besides I need to keep my cavalry

alive to tackle the Mamaluk Cavalry/horse archers (armed with maces, dangerous to tackle).

Truly the Fatimids seem to be designed to kill heavily armored westerners.

Its not that I'm losing battles, I'm winning but after each encounter my armies are gutted, meaning lots of time in training.

The Fatimids are canny too, they avoid seiges and prefer to camp on my territory causing devastation, I'm

forced to attack, my pride forbids me to ignore them, also I'm afraid of allowing them the chance to build up

there numbers.

Any tactical advice would help!

[TeutonicKnight]

I've honestly no idea, but have you had any luck with arbalests?

[Ichon]

Get some numerous cheap units of militia that and line them up with 3-4 ranks only so they cover wide front- deal with Mamluk cavalry as fast as possible and move arbalests or archers to the rear of the Tabardariyya so their defense is less effective. The armor piercing axes will have less effect vs the milita who have lower armor rating and while the militias will lose they are cheaper to replace and you only need them to stall the Tabardariyya until Mamluk cavalry is taken care of and you can charge from behind after arbalests weakened Tabardariyya some. It helps if you have 1 or 2 archers for fire arrows or a couple gunpowder units to make rout more likely. Also the faster you kill their general it is more likely they will rout when your cavalry charge. Your halberd militia should still be useful against Mamluk cavalry if you position them right otherwise your IK, ZH, and MA are quite expensive to use in grind battle when their high armor values are nullified.

[merocaine]

Meat shields.... thats some good advise there, urban spears and spearmen and pikes should do the trick.

I've just unlocked Arbalsters, so hopefully they will be a little more effective than the archers and pavise

crossbows I've been using.

I guess this is the writing on the wall for the feudal era.

[k/t]

I don't see why Pavise Crossbowmen can't kill them. If they can kill Foot Men At Arms, then they will slaughter Tabardariyya.

Shooting them in the back doesn't do anything shooting them in the front doesn't, because their armour is not weaker in the back. Armour is the same from every direction.

Get a unit of fully upgraded (armour + a bronze chevron) Pike Militia and overlap it with a fully upgraded Halberd Militia. I've found this to work extremely well against most opponents.

I'm the HRE now, and my allies, the Byzantines, are fighting the Egyptians, but once I wipe out Norway, I will send an army or two to help out (and to grab Jerusalem so I can win). I will let you know how it works out.

The problem with Egypt is that they have a bunch of Late Professionals: two types of Mamluks (so far), the spear guys, the black spear guys, Tabardariyya and al-Haqa. This means that as long as they have money, they will crank out bastards. Egypt controls a bunch of territories in a rich region, plus it gets AI bonuses (the correct plural of "bonus" is "bonuses"), so it's a never-ending spamfest.

Therefore:

Park a spy inside or next to each of their cities capable of producing Tabardariyya, and then use an Assassin to destroy the building every turn.

[Ichon]

Shooting them in the back doesn't do anything shooting them in the front doesn't, because their armour is not weaker in the back. Armour is the same from every direction.

Well the main reason to put them behind is LoS for the crossbow/arbs but any shield wielding units with Tabardariyya will be hit more- also putting them behind means when the rout starts the crossbow get alot of kill and chance to capture which = xp that really helps them out.

Armor is always 100% all directions except against AP or gunpowder. Only shield and defense skill matter for the direction of attack.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Advice on fighting the Fatimids

1. Put the Pope in your back pocket and launch crusades and then utilize them to devastating effect. Just cuz you called the crusade doesn't mean you have to physically join it. Use the "Crusade Chivalry Cheat" for $$$$, experience, max chivalry to city builders.

2. HRE as a Castle Faction: Max these structures out ASAP then maintain Castle Stack armies that support one another. Gaza-Kerak-Aleppo. Convert the castle west of Gaza to city for $$$$. Cyprys-Adana i convert to cities when playing balanced factions. given that HRE is a castle faction that's your call. do you need the money?

3. Use cavalry as the hammer to your battlelines ANVIL. Always choose high ground and max out defensive formations cuz opponent always comes after you.


Sorry for not being able to due this up right but no time and on the run atm....

[SirRobin]

I also have problems with them, but they haven't invented Tabardariyya yet, so it's just a never ending wave of sieges against Iconium. Each is beaten back, it's a bit of a chore really, but so far I have gotten enough respite between waves to replenish the garrison.

And they just refuse ceasefires, like any other faction at this point (despite the 'new' AI, it's still the same old "When you get up to a certain size, the whole world unites against you, even your oldest and best allies"

[vtec.dominion]

I also have problems with them, but they haven't invented Tabardariyya yet, so it's just a never ending wave of sieges against Iconium. Each is beaten back, it's a bit of a chore really, but so far I have gotten enough respite between waves to replenish the garrison.

And they just refuse ceasefires, like any other faction at this point (despite the 'new' AI, it's still the same old "When you get up to a certain size, the whole world unites against you, even your oldest and best allies"

Use your spies and navy then. Prepare 2 full stacks and attack them on their own ground from the sea. Take the bridges around Alexandria and Cairo and occupy there. They will attack and you should easily destroy their armies there.
Take their weaker settlements using your spies, crush their armies patroling their regions. I would say bridges are the best places to crush much more stronger enemy and i always try to use them on the map.
Attack is your best defence!
I do not know what faction are you playing, but if Turks, well, a full stack of fari cavalry will devastate literally everything.

[Lifthrasir]

Use your spies and navy then. Prepare 2 full stacks and attack them on their own ground from the sea. Take the bridges around Alexandria and Cairo and occupy there. They will attack and you should easily destroy their armies there.
Take their weaker settlements using your spies, crush their armies patroling their regions. I would say bridges are the best places to crush much more stronger enemy and i always try to use them on the map.
Attack is your best defence!
I do not know what faction are you playing, but if Turks, well, a full stack of fari cavalry will devastate literally everything.

I should have thought about that + rep
I used the "bridge tactic" often while fighting England. I even did my most epic battle: I had 1 stack of Scotts against 2 stacks of English (one on each side of the bridge of course) and I won

[Lord Humungus]

Use cheap, expendable infantry, especially with javelins. When tabardariya is exhausted move in your sword/mace infantry and finish them off. Also halberds should work fine.
It's interesting tabardariya gave you so much trouble, they are not that tough actually. Usually when I fight against Fatimids main problem is their mamluk-spam (so nasty).

[k/t]

"move arbalests or archers to the rear of the Tabardariyya so their armor is less effective"

This sentence doesn't make me think of line of sight. Also, while it is way more effective to shoot the enemy in the back if they have shields, moving the crossbowmen out of their sheltered place is a dangerous proposition if you don't have enough cavalry to protect them from enemy cavalry. Not to mention that the enemy infantry could disengage and run back to attack your crossbowmen. Mounted Crossbowmen are a different story.

In the end, it is pretty realistic to take serious casualties against strong enemies. Not all battles should be won without breaking a sweat. And if you're in Egypt, you'll sweat lots.

I'm in 1408, and I saw the Egyptians now have Heavy Spearmen, Heavy Archers, and Royal Mamluks to add to what they already had. ALL Late Professionals. This makes sabotaging their castles even more important. Or capturing them through surprise attacks (ideally involving cannons), exterminating the population (so the castle can't be upgraded if it's not already a citadel, and to hurt the Egyptians' economy), and destroying all the infrastructure in the castle. Then the Pope receives a nice, useless gift that will at least cost the Egyptians a turn or two and a few soldiers more to recapture their castle. Buying Nicosia from the Byzantines for use as a base for the duration of the hostilities is a good idea. Or take an Egyptian castle and hold it. When you see it's a lost cause, destroy the buildings inside and donate it to the Pope. Obviously, exterminating and destroying their cities is highly advisable as well. TOTAL WAR!

If you put the Pope in your back pocket, make a mental note of it, so you don't accidentally sit on him.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

If you put the Pope in your back pocket, make a mental note of it, so you don't accidentally sit on him.

Das funny....

I'm in 1408, and I saw the Egyptians now have Heavy Spearmen, Heavy Archers, and Royal Mamluks to add to what they already had

To all the sucky field generals like me:

If you don't jump out of the gate and cull them down to "sattalite/Vassal" status by turn 30 your'e toast & "extra crispy" at that.

[Ichon]

"move arbalests or archers to the rear of the Tabardariyya so their armor is less effective"

This sentence doesn't make me think of line of sight. Also, while it is way more effective to shoot the enemy in the back if they have shields, moving the crossbowmen out of their sheltered place is a dangerous proposition if you don't have enough cavalry to protect them from enemy cavalry. Not to mention that the enemy infantry could disengage and run back to attack your crossbowmen. Mounted Crossbowmen are a different story.

If the crossbow/arb don't get decent LoS then its almost pointless to bring them to the battle. As for leaving them exposed- if you are dealing already with enemy cavalry it shouldn't be a problem- if not, sometimes it is good then they are exposed and draw enemy. Either they draw cavalry and get a volley or 2 off before contact and it makes your own cavalry worry about 1 less enemy for awhile or they draw infantry out of the main battle line. I'm usually happy with either scenario or if nothing happens. Win, win win...

If my forces are inferior in every way then... it might not be a good idea to sacrifice one of my better missile units and use cheaper unit but in this case the armies were pretty well balanced.

[Lifthrasir]

I'm playing Scotland and I'm in 1172 AD.
I joined a crusade on Cairo earlier in the game. France got it but lost it a few turns later.
I finally landed in Lybia and took the castle (forgot the name). Later on, I brought another stack and I managed to conquer Luxor. But since, the Fatimids keep attacking these 2 settlements.
I just have time to retrain a minimum of units to be able to hold them.
The main problem is that the Fatimids have a half of the middle east They are much stronger than me but I don't want to give up expecting to be able to conquer Egypt and then to reach Jerusalem.
I don't want to call a crusade and the Pope doesn't accept any gift as I'm not enough popular.
At present, I have a 3rd almost complete stack, ready to land. But, should I take Alexandry or Damietta or move it somewhere else to open a 3rd front? But in that case, it might be difficult to reinforce the position.
Acording to what I read before, I really need to hurt badly the Fatimids before they reach the late professional armies.

[vtec.dominion]

I'm playing Scotland and I'm in 1172 AD.
I joined a crusade on Cairo earlier in the game. France got it but lost it a few turns later.
I finally landed in Lybia and took the castle (forgot the name). Later on, I brought another stack and I managed to conquer Luxor. But since, the Fatimids keep attacking these 2 settlements.
I just have time to retrain a minimum of units to be able to hold them.
The main problem is that the Fatimids have a half of the middle east They are much stronger than me but I don't want to give up expecting to be able to conquer Egypt and then to reach Jerusalem.
I don't want to call a crusade and the Pope doesn't accept any gift as I'm not enough popular.
At present, I have a 3rd almost complete stack, ready to land. But, should I take Alexandry or Damietta or move it somewhere else to open a 3rd front? But in that case, it might be difficult to reinforce the position.
Acording to what I read before, I really need to hurt badly the Fatimids before they reach the late professional armies.

Well, i would try to take Gaza and Damietta then, using the spies and naval tactic. Destroy the vital buildings there (especially archery, stables and barracks so they cant recruit mamluks and desert archers) and give them back these regions for peace if you really need it. Gaza and Damietta are probably their most advanced castles as you took Luxor already.

[k/t]

Or convert them to cities in order to permanently remove the threat.

[vtec.dominion]

...and if the Crusader States are still there, i would trade these settlements for Cyprus (Nicosia) and distribute the troops from there crushing the Fatimids completely. You can recruit Murtatoi archers there as well and they are superior.

[RollingWave]

Tabardariyya should be very high end troops on the fatimid roster, that the Fatimid have a ton of them probably means they have a huge economic edge on you.

the general logic remains that if you have problem with fighting someone, avoid open battle and seek more advantage situations elsehwere.

[Velico]

The way I always dealt with the Fatimids was to use long range archers against the Mamluks, crossbowmen up front to soften up their lines, good defensive infantry as the main line with guard mode on, and once the Mamluks are taken care of send in the heavy cavalry over and over. Especially with HRE, I'd probably use 4 heavy cavalry (2 on each flank) and constantly hammer the line while the defensive infantry wear out the enemy infantry. Skirmishers are wonderful too, (I haven't played SS in a while so I forget the HRE roster) foot and cavalry. While my archers rain down on their horse archers, once the lines locked, send skirmishers around the flank. If they are foot skirmishers I'd probably hit them with the heavy cav, fall back, launch a few javelins, charge with heavy cav again.