Question for Vassal Lovers

[Vampiresbane]

I just recently started a Long campaign in M2TW vanilla as HRE and decided to make house rules that I could ONLY take vassals. So far I've vassal'd Milan after a bloody couple years. I had the faction Milan down to their last city of Milan with a power rating of Modest and a wealth rating of Bankrupt. A Milan diplomat came by asking for a ceasefire and I asked for them to become vassals instead. It recieved a "balanced" response and they accepted. My reputation at the time was either Mixed or Reliable (it was at the very beginning of the game).

I'm now just destroying Sicily. I've tried asking to them to become vassals at just about every level of power rating and wealth rating and the response I get is still "very demanding." Their rating with the pope is 1 star, they have only Naples left. I own all the surrounding territory (minus Rome). They have a total of one general (the king) and about 40 odd soldiers left. Needless to say their power rating now is "very weak" and their wealth is "bankrupt." They STILL won't accept being my vassals. My reputation is atm Trustworthy, my power rating is supreme, and I make about 15k to 20k a turn. Their only ally, Hungary, is far away fighting in Russia with no territories bordering mine and they have a "Reasonable" amount of feelings toward myself.

I'm at a complete loss here. I've tried giving them 3 regions (that are all very lightly garrisoned) and 20k for 100 turns in return for being a vassal...nothing. The only response I get is the verbal equivalent of a door being shut in my face.

Anyone have any ideas on how to make this work? I tried gifting 100 gold to Sicily until our relations were "perfect," but nothing came of it except they're no longer Bankrupt.

Has anyone ever had a faction just REFUSE to become vassals?

Any feedback is much appreciated.

[General Nuisance esq]

It's normally at this point that the "read my wonderful advice thread" suggestions will begin

I might even start giving odds on who will appear first

[Vampiresbane]

The more the merrier. If it spawns an advice thread that actually helps...fantastic. I've read all the threads I can find that involve advice on vassals. Honestly at this point, if I get a few responses that say that sometimes you'll just get a faction that refuses to be a vassal, I'll move on. I've tried everything under the sun that I can think of. I'm hoping that someone will basically have a magic bullet. Like if you give 235 florins, they will be vassals or something equally, absolutely bizarre.

[shikaka]

I have the same problem now too.
Even though taking vassals worked for me well in the past...

Vassal offers worked for me, but now I have 2 campaigns where I can't make progress.
Scotland is down to 1 castle, with their king and maybe 1-2 units inside. I am sieging it. Good-very good relations with other nations - except Scotland of course - and good reputation..

Offer:
80-100k gold (I have more as England, basicly all my money)
offer 3 settlements (Edinburgh/Dublin/Rennes)
offer map info

Demand:
vassal status

This offer is 'very demanding' even though Scotland has no income (port sieged, castle is just out of siege), no troops and no hope.

Again: this always worked for me, but somehow, not now..

[Silverheart]

I have honestly never learned how to make vassals of other factions, and since the offer is always "very demanding", I never try to get vassalage. Never understood the point or benefits of having vassals either...
I just destory my enemies, or reduce them to one last settlement.

[Vampiresbane]

For me Silver, I've done the whole paint the map black or red (with HRE and England) so I'd like to keep the factions intact as much as possible so my map can contain as much cultural "flavor" as possible. Plus I really enjoy the idea that my regions will be completely maxed out building and tech wise compared to my neighbors.

Plus I'd like to assist my allies more often and I'm hoping that would happen more often with Vassals. I just never seemed to get it to occur very often with regular "allies." That still remains to be seen since I don't think I've had anyone declare war on any of my vassals so far.

[TheGreatOne]

• Make sure their military power is its lowest rating, they cant have a standing army
• Make sure their financial status is bankrupt
• Restrict resources. example, blockade all ports, devastate all roads.
• Make sure you released prisoners or ransomed your fights for the minimal or most effective reputation.

• Make sure your papal standing is higher than theirs so the pope gives them the peace mission

Follow those steps and they should become vassals, and makes sure they dont have a secret province somewhere like an island or far away colony somewhere.

I have honestly never learned how to make vassals of other factions, and since the offer is always "very demanding", I never try to get vassalage. Never understood the point or benefits of having vassals either...
I just destory my enemies, or reduce them to one last settlement.

You gain half their total turn income per turn

[Vampiresbane]

1. Make sure their military power is its lowest rating, they cant have a standing army
2. Make sure their financial status is bankrupt
3. Restrict resources. example, blockade all ports, devastate all roads.
4. Make sure you released prisoners or ransomed your fights for the minimal or most effective reputation.
5. Make sure your papal standing is higher than theirs so the pope gives them the peace mission
6. Make sure they don't have a secret province

1. Check, they're at "very weak."
2. Check, bankrupt.
3. Check, Naples port is blockaded. Road is devastated. I have the city sieged atm, but I can't continue to do this if they have to have a diplomat to pursue peace with me. Stick with the city siege or give them some breathing room?
4. Check, my reputation is "trustworthy."
5. I believe my papal standing is at good or better, but I'll double check this. *Edit* I'm at perfect (full stars), they're at poor (3 stars).
6. I used "toggle_fow" to double check this plus the comparison screen for all countries shows them as having 1 region.

In addition I've destroyed all their navies. Would more standing armies in the Naples region help or hinder my chances of making them a vassal? Currently I have 2 half stacks sitting in the region. One is besieging the city while the other is devastating the road to Rome, their only land trading partner.

[MJDreamWalker13]

Give it time then. Some factions just are stubborn as hell and it takes more time for them to agree to a vassalship.
I always had trouble with Venice. Blockaded all ports, besieged all cities, destroyed their armies. I eventually gave up after 10 or 15 turns.

If you can't take this any longer destroy them and give Naples to Milan. You gave them a chance. They should've been wiser.

[FriendoftheDork]

The problems with Vassals is that the vassals themselves can break it off, for example if a nation they are allied with goes to war with you... happened to me with France, and I was kinda pissed as I had spent valuable time to get them as vassals and a buffer zone against other nations.

[Vampiresbane]

What dictates (for regular allies) what ally they stick with when two allies fight? Is relations more important or geography or reputation? IE Let's say England, France, Spain are allied, Spain has perfect relations with France, but France attacks England. Would Spain stick with England or France?

I don't think I've ever figured this out.

So far I've been pretty lucky, Milan has broken all its alliances with everyone else whenever they've declared war on me.

[painter]

From what I gather, it is the attacker that should lose the shared allies.

[FriendoftheDork]

From what I gather, it is the attacker that should lose the shared allies.

Nope, relations are paramount, if you have good reputation and you attack an enemy that don't, then their allies might break off, and the other way around.

In my experience the you risk more alliances breaking from you the later the game progresses and the more powerful you become.

[John Doe]

I think there is some randomness to the way the AI choose between ally (except the pope, he always cancel his alliance with the attacker). A few times by reloading the game without doing anything else, the AI changed choice between me and another faction.

[Commander5xl]

The Best success for getting vassals, is on their last turn of the siege or something, you have to have their diplomat aproach you for a ceasefire, if you counter with a vassal, they will always accept(not official, in my games they have just never actually declined it in that situation) Although if you approach them offering it, they will usually slap you in the face

[Vampiresbane]

That's actually how I got the Milan vassalage Commander. Sadly atm, Sicily has no diplomat so we'll see what happens. Hopefully they'll spawn a princess at some point.

[n000b]

I can only recommend SS 6.3, it just makes everything in the game better, including diplomacy.

[Saint Nicholas]

Long campaign in M2TW vanilla

That is your problem right there. The vanilla game is utterly pathetic in almost every single way, Diplomacy ESPECIALLY. Download a mod of your choosing, any mod will drastically improve what you're playing with. If you're a fan of the vanilla game I recommend downloading Lands to Conquer, this mod is the closest to vanilla with mostly minor changes, but much better AI, diplomacy and lots of other tweaks and fixes. It's also a more slow paced game.