A question about christianty

[thelionheart]

I have thought about becomming a christian once. Back in these days I had serious doubt in the existence of god (luckily I all over that now ) . I have read alot about it, it sounded like a noble theology. But to tell you the truth there were two things I couldn't get.

note: this is not a debate, it is just a question. If you reply to my answer as Islam did and Islam says, then you are not answering me


1- Why do we need the sacrifice of jesus for our salvation. couldn't god just forgive us ?
2- I have watched a lot of stories about people who saw jesus christ and whom he changed their lives. Then why didn't he do the same for me ?

thanks in advance for your help

[Pontifex Maximus]

1- Why do we need the sacrifice of jesus for our salvation. couldn't god just forgive us ?

Because Jesus was not god's son.

Because god just likes to do confusing things that make no logical sense.

Because god gets off on killing innocent people.

Take your pick, but you won't find a satisfying answer for that question in the bible or from clergy. The funny thing about god being omnipotent is how seldom he exercises his omnipotence to better the world and a species apparently made in his image who he apparently loves above everything else. Christianity produces more questions than answers to anything, one just has to get past all the "feel good" aspects of christianity, examine the actual dogma of the faith, and then realize how full of shite it is.

2- I have watched a lot of stories about people who saw jesus christ and whom he changed their lives. Then why didn't he do the same for me ?

Because you aren't a self-deluded basket case? You should be happy that you aren't having hallucinations.

[SigniferOne]

1- Why do we need the sacrifice of jesus for our salvation. couldn't god just forgive us ?

First and foremost, this was because of the question of justice. Someone had to pay for the wrongs of humanity. The Law is merciless, unfortunately. Jesus merely took it upon himself.

2- I have watched a lot of stories about people who saw jesus christ and whom he changed their lives. Then why didn't he do the same for me ?

You need to realize that a lot of those people are merely frauds, or may be mistaken. A lot of people are simply superstitious, they see "Jesus" in a cloud, and in India they see Siddharta in birthmark on a person's skin; does that mean Siddharta exists? No. Personal existential experience with God is extremely subjective, and nobody else is able to know that it happened. It is also very rare, and most people don't have it. There's nothing wrong with that.

[thelionheart]

[QUOTE=SigniferOne;8423760]First and foremost, this was because of the question of justice. Someone had to pay for the wrongs of humanity. The Law is merciless, unfortunately. Jesus merely took it upon himself. [QUOTE]

but is't it god who made that law ?

[SigniferOne]

but is't it god who made that law ?

Yes but that is the only right law possible. Law is not arbitrary, it is the truth. As there is only one truth, there is only one justice. And so justice is what God does, and what God does what is just.

[thelionheart]

Yes but that is the only right law possible. Law is not arbitrary, it is the truth. As there is only one truth, there is only one justice. And so justice is what God does, and what God does what is just.

So god is like this, it is -according to christianity- inseperable from justice and can only be just.
Allow me to annoy you with other questions related to my initial question please,
So why is jesus's death an enough sacrifice for the forgiveness of all humanity ? And why do we have to accept his sacrifice to go to heaven ?

@Pontifix Maximus: your reply was very good from a non christian prespective (+ rep: even though I doubt that you need it ) , but I need to understand christianity from christians. thanks any way

edited: "And why do we have to accept his sacrifice ..."

[SigniferOne]

So god is like this, it is -according to christianity- inseperable from justice and can only be just.

Kind of. God IS, and we merely call that justice.

It's the same with conscience. We don't know what morality is, we don't know how to define it. We merely call moral that which our conscience approves, and we are helpless to call anything else moral, or that not moral.

So why is jesus's death an enough sacrifice for the forgiveness of all humanity ?

Because Jesus is not a mere man. He lived a perfect life, a literally flaw-less life.

And do we have to accept his sacrifice to go to heaven ?

Yes.

It is sufficient for all, but efficient only for those who accept it. It would be only just.

[♔Goodguy1066♔]

What I personally find bizzare in Christianity is that God was apparently the Messiah disguised as his own son, which is something unprecedented in the Old Testemant which has God talk to future prophets but not act through them, let alone be them.
And if, as a few Christians believe, Jesus is really God's son and is divine too, doesn't that kind of ruins the whole Monotheistic idea?

Also, I have stated this before and will continue to repeat it, is the underwhelmingness of Jesus' miracles. How does one expect us to dispose of our age-old faith because some bearded heretic apparently fed hobos fish and cured a leper or two? All religions have loopholes and shouldn't be taken literally, but even for a story that is incredibly lame.

[SigniferOne]

What I personally find bizzare in Christianity is that God was apparently the Messiah disguised as his own son, which is something unprecedented in the Old Testemant which has God talk to future prophets but not act through them, let alone be them.

There's a miscommunication here somewhere; the Messiah IS the Son.

And if, as a few Christians believe, Jesus is really God's son and is divine too, doesn't that kind of ruins the whole Monotheistic idea?

God refers to himself in the plural in the Old Testament. In the Middle Ages the Talmudic rabbis scrubbed the OT of any references to Christianity.

Also, I have stated this before and will continue to repeat it, is the underwhelmingness of Jesus' miracles. How does one expect us to dispose of our age-old faith because some bearded heretic apparently fed hobos fish and cured a leper or two?

I don't think you've read the New Testament too carefully, he did a little more than that, the healing, the reviving, the mercy, the judgment, the condemnation, and finally the resurrection. "Bearded" heretic? Have you taken a look at the rabbis today?

[Ludicus]

But to tell you the truth there were two things I couldn't get.

1- Why do we need the sacrifice of jesus for our salvation. couldn't god just forgive us ?
2- I have watched a lot of stories about people who saw jesus christ and whom he changed their lives. Then why didn't he do the same for me ?

thanks in advance for your help

Well, read the Manual of Christian Doctrine

[SigniferOne]

Well, read the Manual of Christian Doctrine

Why should one "read this", what makes it a good book? Why do you insist on quoting the 19th century, during which both religion and philosophy for the first time became corrupt? Can't you quote from some classic works on Christian Doctrine? Calvin's Institutes? Luther's Large Catechism?

[Ludicus]

Why should one "read this", what makes it a good book? Why do you insist on quoting the 19th century, during which both religion and philosophy for the first time became corrupt? Can't you quote from some classic works on Christian Doctrine? Calvin's Institutes? Luther's Large Catechism?

Cathecism of the Catholic Church?
http://www.google.pt/url?sa=t&source...icNax3o0VOTqiQ

[SigniferOne]

Cathecism of the Catholic Church?

No, Luther, Martin Luther , his Large Catechism from 1529, which laid down the non-Roman-Catholic doctrine of Christianity. Or if you want, Melanchthon's Loci Communes, which, with Luther, explains the whole doctrine of Protestant Christianity. Why is quoting from a late 19th century source, on any issue, inevitably always preferrable for you?

[Ludicus]

No, Luther, Martin Luther , his Large Catechism from 1529, which laid down the non-Roman-Catholic doctrine of Christianity.

Wow! and your point is? well, Calvin openly admitted that the Roman Catholic Church had preserved the Word and Sacraments, so that one could come to know God truly in the Catholic Church. Isn´t that enough? Looking at the statistics, Catholics are the majority, even in Americas (north+south, total)
In a democracy, the majority wins

[boofhead]

1- Under the Law the Jews would make blood sacrifices of unblemished (''perfect'') animals to wipe away their sins, and follow many customary laws on cleanliness, diet etc in order to seek purity. Problem with this is that since the Fall of Man we are all sinful in nature - so mere corporeal acts are insufficient to bring man to God on their own. A man could easily make the correct sacrifice but have a black heart full of sin.
So God sends Jesus as the Ultimate Sacrifice, the Final Blood Sacrifice, the Perfect Sacrifice. The requirement is no longer for us to physically perform a ritual killing, but to have faith in the sacrifice already made for us, and to sacrifice our old lives and put on the new via a spiritual rebirth. So salvation goes from the corporeal to the spiritual. And it is in the inner, spiritual realm that black hearts are repaired, not by the doing of outward acts.
As far as ''couldn't God just forgive us'' - well, I suppose he could. But what would that mean? That we could just do whatever we wanted and be forgiven, no questions asked? That is not the act of an involved and loving father who seeks our betterment, that is the act of an indifferent, uncaring parent. The Christian God is a personal Deity who moves at all times within the life of a believer, as a Father to a child.

2- Maybe he did? After all, you are still asking questions, so it seems a seed may have been planted. Oftentimes what we think we need is not what God knows we need.

Mary Stevenson summed this up beautifully

One night I dreamed I was walking along the beach with the Lord. Many scenes from my life flashed across the sky.

In each scene I noticed footprints in the sand. Sometimes there were two sets of footprints, other times there was one only.

This bothered me because I noticed that during the low periods of my life, when I was suffering from anguish, sorrow or defeat, I could see only one set of footprints, so I said to the Lord,

“You promised me Lord,
that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I have noticed that during the most trying periods of my life there has only been one set of footprints in the sand. Why, when I needed you most, have you not been there for me?”

The Lord replied, “The years when you have seen only one set of footprints, my child, is when I carried you.”

Mary Stevenson, 1936

[Ludicus]

"Why, when I needed you most, have you not been there for me?”

Freud summed this "God is a projection of the human need for a father"

[boofhead]

Freud summed this "God is a projection of the human need for a father"

So? Freud was also obsessed with penises, and has been largely debunked AFAIK.

[Ludicus]

So? Freud was also obsessed with penises...

And food: "Religion, moderated consumed,stimulates the digestion,but taken in excess, harms it. Goethe already knew: nothing is more difficult to bear than a sequence of holidays"

[thelionheart]

Well, read the Manual of Christian Doctrine

but was that book written by a christian ?

2- Maybe he did? After all, you are still asking questions, so it seems a seed may have been planted. Oftentimes what we think we need is not what God knows we need.
Mary Stevenson summed this up beautifully

well, I doubt that christianity is correct. but if it was then I believe god would give me enough chances and lead me to safety. I trust Allah (arabic for god) blindly

[Squiggle]

well, I doubt that christianity is correct. but if it was then I believe god would give me enough chances and lead me to safety. I trust Allah (arabic for god) blindly

If Christianity is true, and you trust in God, you must trust in the fact that he wont give you anymore chances.

but the muslim god will allow those who can't believe in him to go to heaven as well

I dont think your right in that [of course you could be, I'm not muslim]. AFAIK Islam says the people of the book [muslims, jews, Christians and sabines] can be saved if they are good enough. But they all believe in a monotheistic conception of God, none are atheists.