Questions about units morale

[p.jakub88]

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Hello everyone,

I would like to change morale of some basic ETW land units, so the particular land unit will remain "under control" most the time during land battle.

I mean when i.e line infantry will be 40/160 men, it should breaks morale and force to rout the unit from the battlefield.

What would be a reasonable ( realistic ) --> morale value for basic land units ( line infantry, militia, pikemen, cavalry, cannons, etc ) ?

So, i would like to make some changes on my own --> in the proper db table of course.

Any ideas, what morale value will be the most realistic for land units in Empire Total War?

I 'm using the ultra options in unit size.

Thanks in advance!

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[Kaunitz]

For "realistic" morale, you'd actually need to set morale MUCH LOWER than in vanilla ETW. But nevermind. You already know where you can change units' morale, and you probably know where you can find the settings for morale (kv_morale_tables). There you will find all but the following factors and tresholds:

"encouraged: general alive" (this is NOT "inspired")
"encouraged: friendly units nearby" (this is a very annoying thing! Actually I've read that it takes into account the number of enemy and friendly units around; so you will also see this factor at work when there are no other friendly units on the battlefield!)
"encouraged: enemy routing"
"concerned: melee contact"
"square formation": we all know that it gives a morale-bonus
"encouraged: supporting army"
"concerned: enemy numbers nearby"
I guess that "concerned: friends routing" is equivalent with "panic" in the DBE morales talble? But I'm not sure!
"encouraged: winning close combat"

All these mentioned factors are missing in the morale-table, which is very big obstacle if one tries to rework the whole morale-system. Other nuisances are that you cannot alter the duration of the factors and that you cannot differentiate morale factors for different unit classes. Oh, and you can't lower the fear range to a distance lower than ca. 100 in-game-units.

So, e.g. if you want any unit (as I've mentioned, there are no differences for different unit classes; the "morale" column in fatigue effects doesn't seem to work for me) to rout for sure when it has only ca. 40 (to be exact: 32) out of 160 men left, you can set the "total_casualties_penalty_80(%)" factor to a very high negative value - depending on your "broken treshold lower"-setting, the unit will be shattered and unable to rally. What I can say for sure though is that the whole morale-system does not work in a very intuitive way (it's not as simple as adding positive factors, substracting negative factors and then comparing the result with the tresholds).

To sum it up:

When you want units to stay in battle for a longer time, when they've suffered more casualties, you need to lower the corresponding values in kv_morale_tables:
1. total_casualties_penalty_20-90(%); permanent factor; total casualties suffered in this battle
2. recent_casualties_penalty_6-50 (%); temporary factor; amount of casualties suffered in the time "recent_casualties_shock_treshold" (in ticks; 1/10 seconds??)
3. exended_casualties_penalty_10-80(%); temporary factor; amount of casualties suffered in a certain time (longer than recent casualties; maybe "recent tresh." x a certain multiplier?)

[p.jakub88]

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Thanks for quick and comprehensive answer Kaunitz!

In my opinion, the land units morale in ETW is quite realistic, because the unit could resist a lot of casualties unless broken or routing.

I saw a very decimated unit in land battle in vanilla ETW, that was active all the time (!!).

You are right in some aspects Kaunitz: some units could withstand "enormous beating", and some not.

I understand, that technology, equipment and experience is important too to morale factor in battles.

So, maybe i would change some "overall" morale.

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[taw]

I don't want to install any major ETW overhauls mod ( Darthmod, IS, etc ).

DarthMod is not major overhaul - it's just a collection of rather reasonable fixes
that stay fairly close to vanilla. Something a lot like Vanilla Balance mod for Rome Total War.
You should give it a try.


By the way, morale in vanilla is way too high compared with historical reality.
But it's trivially moddable, mostly with _kv_morale db table any way you want.

[p.jakub88]

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Nevermind.....

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[p.jakub88]

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So, i opened the kv_morale_tables and i have some questions about this table :

--> "blood bonus" ( 5 to 12 ) ?

--> "fear effect range 50" ? ( i don't know, what does it means the value "50"... )

Thanks in advance!

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[taw]

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So, i opened the kv_morale_tables and i have some questions :

what means those below lines in this db table :

--> blood bonus ( 5 to 12 ) ??

--> fear effect range 50 ( i don't know, what does it means the value 50... )

--> morale base ( basic morale if an unit?? )


I understand that values below 0 - means negative effects and values above 0 - means positive effects....

Thanks in advance!

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50 is in same map units as gun range. You know - normal muskets have range 70 etc.

So 50 means they'd not be afraid of someone shooting at maximum distance,
but yes if they're charging past that.

[p.jakub88]

50 is in same map units as gun range. You know - normal muskets have range 70 etc.

So 50 means they'd not be afraid of someone shooting at maximum distance,
but yes if they're charging past that.

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Thanks, but i have changed some land units muskets range....so it will be more complicated.

So, i.e most line infantry ( in my ETW of course... ) could shot even from 250 m, citizens only 100, militia 250, dragoons 100 - 150 m, etc.

So, they will be afraid for sure, when shooting at minimal distance ( below the fear effect range ) --> what distance would be "minimal"?

50 meters is more than 50% of 70 meters range ( 35 m is 50 % of 70 m.. ).

So in example, if most of my modded ETW land units, could shot from distance above 100 m, i should set "fear effect range" to 100 -->i 'm right?

But what about other values that i mentioned in the previous post?

Thanks in advance!

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[taw]

This is sad, that we couldn't delete any unrealistic rows in kv_morale without errors.

You don't delete anything, you replace with 0s. That's how db system works.

[p.jakub88]

You don't delete anything, you replace with 0s. That's how db system works.

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It would be great, if we could add those "missing entries" like admiral_alive ,etc.

By the way : thank you for help taw --> i really appreciate that!

Would be the new added row ,present in ETW or not? ( i mean new row in kv_morale_tables )

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[taw]

It would be great, if we could add those "missing entries" like admiral_alive ,etc.

They're not missing - they're just hardcoded knobs. You cannot add or remove them.
And this one exists in _kv_naval_morale_tables.

"sme_concerned_admiral_dead" -2.0
"sme_concerned_admiral_died_recently" -4.0
"sme_concerned_admiral_fled_recently" -3.0

If you want to reverse it (+1 morale if alive, -2 if dead),
you need to add +1 to ship_morale_base, and set sme_concerned_admiral_dead to -3.


I'm not sure if general's/admiral's traits work after he's dead/fleeing or not,
and if lua triggers can modify them in the middle of a battle, but that would
be pretty awesome thing to try. Possibly not even that hard.

[Kaunitz]

By the way, I think you've misinterpretaed taws (modding-wise, I wouldn't dare to tangle with him *g*) hint concerning fear range. As far as I can remember, it doesn't indicate a percentage of weapon range of the corresponding unit. It's just an absolute value in "in-game-distance units", which are the same units as those used for weapon ranges, just to give you an idea. And it refers to units that casue fear only ("scares enemy" in unit stats land). A major Problem is that no matter how low you set the fear-range, in the game, it is always triggered at about 100 units. I've tried small whole numbers, negative values and fractions. If anyone had a different experience, I'd be very glad to know about it!

The blood bonus refers to a certain amount of kills (doesn't matter whether close combat or ranged combat) inflicted on the enemy in a certain amount of time. I guess that it is measured in % of the unit inflicting the casualties, and that the amount of time to trigger it is rather short. Also, the bonus lasts only for a very short time in my experience. I'm sorry that I can't give any more detailed information about this.

Have I mentioned nuisances yet ? Well, I've got one more: routers units bestow flank- and rear-attack mali on pursuing units! And I cannot circumvent that as long as I can't set a higher bonus for "routing enemy units nearby".

Oh, and a word of warning: I've experimented with giving artillery units the ability to inspire. It lead to regular CTDs in battles after a certain amount of time playing the battle.
And it's also important to know that the unit-info-box in the game only shows the "biggest" (doesn't matter if negative or positive) factor working on a unit at a given time.

[p.jakub88]

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Yes Kaunitz - i noticed, that the unit info box shows the "biggest" positive or negative factor working an a unit at a given time. ( at least this aspect of morale system is easy to understand... ).

I will try do as taw suggested: add "+1" to ship morale base and change the admiral dead value to "-3" --> to give some bonus when admiral is alive ( the same is with general ) --> but this will be used even when the army don't have a general?

I don't want "bonus" to my units morale, when we haven't got any general. ( if i' m wrong correct me )

Changing the "morale base" from "0" to "+1" --> will change other values too or not?

What means this "treshold" ( i searched in English dictionary, but i didn't find this word... )?

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[taw]

By the way, I think you've misinterpretaed taws (modding-wise, I wouldn't dare to tangle with him *g*) hint concerning fear range. As far as I can remember, it doesn't indicate a percentage of weapon range of the corresponding unit. It's just an absolute value in "in-game-distance units", which are the same units as those used for weapon ranges, just to give you an idea. And it refers to units that casue fear only ("scares enemy" in unit stats land). A major Problem is that no matter how low you set the fear-range, in the game, it is always triggered at about 100 units. I've tried small whole numbers, negative values and fractions. If anyone had a different experience, I'd be very glad to know about it!

The blood bonus refers to a certain amount of kills (doesn't matter whether close combat or ranged combat) inflicted on the enemy in a certain amount of time. I guess that it is measured in % of the unit inflicting the casualties, and that the amount of time to trigger it is rather short. Also, the bonus lasts only for a very short time in my experience. I'm sorry that I can't give any more detailed information about this.

Have I mentioned nuisances yet ? Well, I've got one more: routers units bestow flank- and rear-attack mali on pursuing units! And I cannot circumvent that as long as I can't set a higher bonus for "routing enemy units nearby".

Oh, and a word of warning: I've experimented with giving artillery units the ability to inspire. It lead to regular CTDs in battles after a certain amount of time playing the battle.
And it's also important to know that the unit-info-box in the game only shows the "biggest" (doesn't matter if negative or positive) factor working on a unit at a given time.

I'm going to bet a beer that unit info box is moddable from some *.luac or another
without even looking.
Any takers :-p ?